Latex ILD - is Dunlop ILD really comparable to Talalay?

We are sleeping on two 3" layers of Talalay latex (with a 2" vzone and 2" convoluted topper). We both weigh over 190 lbs and it feels like we are in a hammock even though the latex isn’t sagging when we aren’t in it.

I’m wanting to get some Dunlop to support better, but I’m scared to order too firm since people keep saying its so much more dense. Currently my husband (6’ 2" , 200lbs) is on 3" 44ild under 3" 30 ILD. Would Xfirm Dunlop be noticeably harder? He just wants to feel supported, not sagging. He doesn’t necessarily want hard. Is one 3" layer of Dunlop enough support for people our size?

I’m 185 lbs and have lots of neck and back and hip issues. My hands are often numb when waking, but my back feels like it gets no support either. I’m on 30 ILD under 35. (Both Talalay). Would a 3" Dunlop Firm be too much for me and/or would I need more than 3" of Dunlop to feel supported without adding Pressure Points?

We are thinking, after reading here to add at least 3" to what we have, which would be 13" total… Any ideas would be welcome. Thanks!

Some thoughts:

ILD is ILD. But one difference between Dunlop and Talalay, as I’m sure Phoenix will describe with more technical accuracy, is that Dunlop is denser and is going to feel firmer whereas Talalay has more air and is going to feel more pillowy. Either Dunlop or Talalay can support your weight properly and it’s going to be a matter of opinion as to which one you really prefer. I think the question for you should not be Talalay vs Dunlop. The question should be how many layers (and at your weight I’d go with 3 3" layers) and at what firmness. Presumably you chose Talalay because you liked how it felt. So again, Talalay at the right ILD will support you. Dunlop is going to feel quite different in my experience, so switching out latex type vs just latex firmness might be too radical a change. Given Talalay and Dunlop both on top of the same slatted wood foundation, my description would be that Talalay has more “finesse” and feels a bit more “luxurious” while Dunlop has more “resistance”. On one high ILD Dunlop mattress I sampled, I remember feeling like I could not even lay flat on my back because the mattress was pushing me in one direction or the other. It was too firm a mattress, but odd nonetheless.

Another option you might consider beforre making any changes is to try out some latex mattresses in a local store, and then from that, get an idea of where your ideal firmness is, how Dunlop vs Talalay feels, etc. My preference has definitely been Talalay on top, and I’m … not a little person. I’ve had less of a preference as to the type of lower layers, however. With 3" of Talalay on top, I’ve not really felt much difference between Dunlop and Talalay beneath - from a comfort standpoint. Maybe I’m not perceptive enough, but it’s not for lack of trying! I’ve now sampled a whole lot of Latex mattresses!! Though when I do get my new mattress it WILL be all Talalay because I want to have the flexibility of rearranging layers without ever having Dunlop on top. But that’s just me.

Hi Ho,

There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may be helpful in clarifying the differences between firmness and “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.

Dunlop has a higher compression modulus than Talalay (compression modulus is how quickly a material gets firmer as you sink into it more deeply) which means that if you had a layer of each that were the same thickness and ILD in the top layer of a mattress and were sleeping on them directly that for most people the Dunlop would “feel” firmer than the Talalay. This is something that you would notice more in a top layer than the deeper layers but the type of latex in a mattress is a preference choice and not a “better/worse” choice and either type of latex can be a perfectly suitable choice in any layer of a mattress both in terms of comfort and support in a suitable firmness level. I don’t know of any reason that I would want to add another layer of Dunlop (or Talalay for that matter) to your mattress and I would focus more on making any changes to your vZone (which is 3" not 2") or the other layers in your mattress that would resolve any comfort/pressure relief or support/alignment issues you may be having rather than adding any additional layers.

One of the main benefits of your mattress is that both the layering and the zoning can be changed so that the mattress can be “fine tuned” in many ways and the first thing I would do is talk with Flobeds about your experience and any actual “symptoms” you are having when you sleep on your mattress so they can provide you with the help and guidance you will need to make the type of changes to your mattress layering and/or zoning that you are looking for.

Phoenix

Thank you Phoenix for your input. We have spoken with Flobeds over the years and we have tried our layers in every arrangement trying to get it right. Btw, our v-zone is only 2" and a continuous piece, not the one they sell now (we bought the bed in 2004). We used to use a 3" Sensus memory foam topper as well, but it sagged after a few years. We were then given the 2" convoluted latex topper. The bed started to sag very noticeably again, to the point it isn’t easy to get from one side to another. We unzipped the case to check the latex and the 3" layers of latex appear to be quite level. The sagging seems to be from the quilted cover.

I did email Flobeds about the issue and they said to "replace the memory foam topper " so obviously they weren’t much help. When I wrote them again, they didn’t reply. (Although I did give it one more shot and they’ve offered a new cover at half off.) However, I am hesitant to get another quilted casing because I’m not sure why it should sag so much. They are expensive and not warrantied and I don’t want to deal with this problem again since we don’t know how to avoid it. We have cleaned it before as instructed, which helps fluff it up a little, but not enough to fix the big bump down the middle of the bed. A few companies do sell a non-quilted casing with the wool batting inside and that seems like it might be a way to avoid getting a lumpy cover.

But my husband says he has never felt the bed was quite supportive enough for him. I don’t know if the latex has worn out now, which maybe it has since I’ve read here not to expect them to last the whole 20 year warranty (we are at 11 years). We have the Euro slats on a good metal base, and the lumbar on the slats is adjusted to the firmest setting. We have thought of swapping his layer of 30ild Talalay with a 35 or 44, but it seemed this site and others recommended 3, 3" layers for people of our weight. I guess even if the v- zone is only 2" we are close enough, from what you are saying. I just wondered if another layer might prevent any future sagging since we seem to have had a problem with that.

I’ve read so much information I’m just confused. I’m not sure if we need to start from scratch or just replace his 30 ILD with a firmer 3" layer. We really need to get a new mattress casing, though, the bump is just ridiculous. And if we have to get a new cover, it would be easy to get a deeper one to accommodate another 3" layer if it would help avoid any bottoming out feeling. I also have many neck, back and hip problems so the more customization choices I have available, the better, if I can figure it out.

I really appreciate all the help and knowledge I’ve gotten on this site. Thank you so much. I will continue to read your posts and articles until I get it! :slight_smile:

-ljgmdad,

Thank you so much! Your thoughts are very helpful and I appreciate your input. I think your advice to try them out in person is spot on. I’ve just not been able to find a store here in Dallas yet that sells a strictly latex mattress, although I may have gotten a lead on one. Your description of the Dunlop vs the Talalay gave me just the kind of feedback I wanted. With fibromyalgia and other issues I’m betting I should stay strictly with Talalay. I think we will have to find a store somewhere so my husband can feel the difference, since it is such a subjective thing.

Thank you again! :cheer:

Hi Ho,

Thanks … I didn’t realize that you had purchased your mattress that long ago.

If there are no obvious issues with your latex layers there are a couple of things that may be worth trying.

The first thing I would try is putting your mattress on the floor to see if it makes a difference because the flexible slats under your mattress could be part of the problem. There is more about the pros and cons of flexible slats in post #2 here.

I don’t know what you are using on top of your mattress but I would also check to see if any mattress protector or mattress pad is affecting the ability of your mattress to contour to the shape of your body.

I would also consider changing the zoning pattern in your v-Zone to see if an alternative arrangement is a better “match” for your body shape and weight distribution. They also have replacement v-Zone sections available with different firmness levels. There is more about zoning in post #11 here.

It may also be worth considering putting the 44 ILD layer above the 30 ILD layer to see what difference this makes as well.

You could also replace the 30 ILD layer with a slightly firmer layer but I would work with the other options that you have available first to see if you can resolve the issue before considering buying a new layer.

Finally upper body issues can often be resolved with a different pillow.

Phoenix

Thanks for your suggestions! Our mattress pad is minimal, just to clarify.

We will take a look at those slats and move the 44 to the top as you suggest. My husband has been concerned it’s just the bed needs replaced. But it is the Talalay 30/70 blend from latex intl that you describe as more durable and it seems fine when you look at it directly, so hopefully we can make these adjustments work.

I’ll keep reading and thank you very much! :slight_smile:

Phoenix, so glad I followed your advice and put our latex mattress on the floor! Turns out our Euro Slat foundation from FloBeds is just shot (many of the curved slats are flattened). It seems obvious this foundation isn’t supporting our weight. The huge sagging and the big hill in the middle of the mattress were almost gone once the mattress was on the floor.

So, I thought I needed a harder mattress, but on the floor it is actually too hard. So we need better support, if I understand my research on your site correctly.

The bed was bought in 04, but FloBeds says that foundation is warrantied and replaceable. However we feel getting another Euro Slat would probably lead to another fail. They also have a Fir foundation and a Pine, but caution these options will feel like putting the mattress on the floor. I don’t want to get a platform, because I have heat issues already and want the air circulation. Do you have any thoughts on our best option?

Lastly, after reading everything you suggest and more, I think we have isolated issues beyond the foundation we need to resolve. I don’t know if 11 years is too long and the latex is shot, or if we are just not configured right, or need to add a layer, or what.

With the current mattress on the floor, my husband feels his side overall is too hard, but he is sinking too far in the hip area, (he’s configured like me below, except his 3" cores are 30 ILD over 44 ILD). On the floor it feels much better but too hard, and I need more cushion in my shoulder area (I get frequent arm numbness, etc). Im configured like so: the latex is Talatech (except comfort pad)

2" convoluted natural latex comfort pad
2.5" 7 zone layer, non-adjustable
3" 35 ILD
3" 30 ILD ,

Your help is greatly appreciated and I’m hoping we are close to getting our bed comfortable again. Thanks for any suggestions!

Hi Ho,

While it’s not really possible to “diagnose” mattress comfort issues on a forum because there are too many unique unknowns and variables involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or any “symptoms” they experience … there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here.

There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.

These posts are the “tools” that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body’s language and “translate” what your body is trying to tell you so you can make the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any “symptoms” you are experiencing.

The only actual “symptom” I can see in your comments is your shoulder numbness which generally indicates either that you could benefit from a softer zone under your shoulders (and this could be why the tension adjustable slats were working for you previously) or it could also point to a pillow issue as well.

You also mentioned that the mattress “felt like” it was too firm but comments that only include the “sensations” you are experiencing and include terms like “felt like” or that talk about how much you are sinking in but don’t describe the specific symptoms you are experiencing are very subjective (see post #6 here) and it may also just be a matter of getting used to the mattress without the Euro Slat Foundation (see post #3 here).

In very general terms if a mattress “feels” too firm but there are no specific symptoms connected to the “feeling” then it may require some trial and error with rearranging or exchanging layers to soften up the mattress (moving firmer layers down or softer layers up will generally soften up the mattress and replacing a firmer layer with a softer one will also soften up the mattress) but this will also depend on whether you are talking about “pressure relief” firmness (which may involve softening up the upper layers) or “support” firmness (which may involve the deeper layers) and if the “feeling” of the mattress being too firm is connected to a specific area of your body it may also involve rearranging or exchanging some of the zones or moving the zoned layer up or down.

Because all of this can become very complex … my “best” suggestion would be a more detailed conversation on the phone with Flobeds about your experiences and the types of changes that may be helpful so you can take advantage of their knowledge and experience with other customers that are in similar circumstances or have similar experiences to yours. They will be more familiar with their mattresses and the options they have available and the types of changes that may be helpful than anyone else (including me) and it’s much better to deal with these types of “fine tuning” changes with a more interactive voice conversation than through written “conversations” that may take many hours of back and forth communications to even get to the level of clarity about your experiences that would be necessary to even begin to make any specific suggestions. Voice communications can accomplish in minutes what written communications can often talk many hours or days of back and forth questions, comments, and replies to accomplish.

Phoenix

Thank you so much again for the advice. I will read the posts and call FloBeds to see what they suggest.

It’s all just so complicated.

Hi Ho,

I certainly understand but a phone conversation with Flobeds will make things much simpler :slight_smile:

Phoenix