From this point … I would go by your testing for pressure relief and alignment and your preferences (such as motion transfer) between different mattresses and of course include the comparative “value” between different mattresses that would both seem to do the job. Thanks too for the updated specs on the Dream.
As far as I know they are factory direct but I didn’t ask them this specifically. Outside of their “style” of communication and their reluctance to answer questions in more detail … they fit the profile of better local manufacturers with better value … even if the details are more difficult to find out. I guess this would depend (for me) on how close the mattresses you have tried were to your “ideal” in terms of both performance, feel, and budget.
There’s a fairly lengthy reply (not so unusual for me it seems :)) in the other thread with my thoughts about the different types of foundations.
You re down to the place where your choices are between “good and good” and suitability for your needs and preferences balanced against the importance of the different price ranges would be the tradeoff you are facing. The “value” of all your remaining choices are certainly better than most.
We went to Jordan Brothers today. We liked the Talalay mattress very much, it was on the firm end of the spectrum for my preference however. I can’t help but find myself thinking it’s better to buy a firmer mattress because they’ll all start to “give” after a while. I also can’t help but think I’m subconsciously swayed toward this mattress because a) it’s double sided and we get twice the mattress for not much more price b) liberal full 10 year waranty.
In terms of the specific “test drive” - it was comfortable and I did lay on it for quite a while on my side and I did feel support all long my ribcage - so I didn’t just feel mattress under my hip and shoulder.
I forgot to ask the full thickness of the mattress. Is it as simple as adding the various layers together? In that case it would be 10 inches - it looked thicker than that. Not that bigger (thicker) necessarily is better - just trying to gather info about all the variables.
In terms of the tally on all the mattresses we’ve tried we both like “The Dream” by Dreamline. We were split on the Denver Mattress options. My husband liked the Aspen, I liked the Snowmass. We both liked the Jordan Bedding one.
I also have to wonder if we liked the Jordan one because it’s the one we tried most recently. Although that didn’t ring true the other day when we looked. We tried “The Dream” first and even tho we were split on the Denver Mattress offerings we still both liked “The Dream” better. Again - being $300 less than the Snowmass may have had something to do with it. But I can’t help but take the financial piece into consideration when making this decision. Although the Jordan Bedding one is at the top of our price range and we are heavily considering it.
With my husband being mostly a back sleeper he’s pretty much said “I can sleep on any of them.” So ultimately I think this is falling to me. Unfortuntately Jordan Bedding and Dreamline are about an hour and a half a part so there’s not really a way to compare the two of them in any direct fashion. I’m also waiting to hear back from Sandy my contact at Dreamline because apparently she’s the only person in the ENTIRE place that can give me the ILD rating on their Latex and she’s been traveling this week.
Alrighty - so that’s where we stand. Or lay as the case may be.
This is certainly true and all foam will soften over time … it is also less true for latex than for memory foam or polyfoam. Polyurethane foams (and memory foam is a type of these) will go through an initial softening followed by a more gradual softening followed by breakdown which leads to impressions. Latex will do the same but to a lesser degree and over a longer period of time.
Warranties are not nearly as important a factor in the purchase of a mattress or in determining value as knowing the materials that are in it. Warranties don’t cover the change in comfort of a mattress over time … only the last stage of foam breakdown which leads to impressions (and they also have exclusions where the most common amounts of impressions are considered “normal” and not covered anyway). In other words … they have nothing to do with how long a mattress will last or remain suitable for your needs and preferences. They only cover “defects” in manufacturing which will usually show up early in the life of a mattress.
Comparing the overall thickness of a mattress to the layers that you know about is just a way to tell if there are any “missing” layers that may be a “weak link” in a mattress you are considering. Other than that … the overall thickness of a mattress has little to do with quality or suitability for any individual. In many cases … thickness can be a disadvantage if it is because of innersprings that are taller than normal or because of low density foam that has been added to a mattress to cater to the common idea in the minds of consumers that “thicker is better”. Your own testing will tell you more about the suitability of a mattress than “specs” like total thickness.
The Snowmass uses thicker layers of latex which is a more expensive material than either polyfoam or memory foam so the fact that it is more expensive would be “normal” and not indicative of the comparative value of each mattress. The Dreamline uses 5" of “premium” foam and 3" of this is high quality memory foam and 2" of it are the more expensive latex. The rest is polyfoam which is less than both. The Snowmass has 8" of the more costly Talalay latex. This doesn’t mean of course that the Snowmass is “better” for you because this is always about how well a mattress meets your needs and preferences but it does indicate that the Snowmass uses more expensive and durable materials and would be “worth” paying more if this was the direction you decided to go. Bear in mind that durability means little if the mattress doesn’t “work” as well for you (and your husband).
Because of your husbands back sleeping … slightly firmer in the support layers and thinner in the comfort layers (between him and the support of the mattress) would tend to be better. I would take into account the thickness of any “soft” foam in the top layers as part of your considerations. If you have a choice between two “seemingly equal” options … then slightly firmer in the support layers and thinner in the support layers is generally “safer” for the long term. This is particularly true if the upper layers includes foam that is more likely to soften over time.
I would also not pay any attention to ILD specs (what I call “comfort” specs) because you have already tested the mattresses and ILD is not connected to quality or value. It will only introduce a variable that is meaningless at this stage. ILD is important if you are buying something you haven’t tested online or using a local mattress as a guideline for an online purchase but if you are making a local purchase … then ILD “specs” are not important or really worth any effort to track down. This is why most local outlets don’t put much focus on them because they know that your own personal experience is much more important and ILD can often do more to distract and confuse than help.
As I mentioned in the last post … you are at the “best” place you could be where your choices are all good ones and even though the final smaller details of either “feel” or materials and the tradeoffs between your choices can be the most difficult of all … at least there are no “bad” choices in the mix and hopefully some of this post will help you make the “best” decision possible for your short and long term satisfaction.
Ok - so in the further whittling down process - I would say that the Snowmass is out. Our original goal was to be in the thousand dollar range with $1,500 being the max - well it’s still $200 above that without tax.
I’m leaning toward saying “The Dream” is out because it really only has 2 inches of latex in the entirety of the mattress. While it is nearly $400 less than the other 2 mattresses left in the running - that was one of our goals - a latex mattress. But it is more in line with our price range… Caveat question - is the 4.5" 2.2 lb poly foam base a quality enough product to leverage the price break of that size without compromising the integrity of the mattress?
As for tracking down the Dreamline Talalay Latex ILD - it was in the interest of trying to compare “apples to apples” in the sense of I know what the numbers are for the other mattresses already.
Also - as a general, overall question is there a point where a layer is automatically considered a comfort layer vs. a support (core?) layer? Like top 2 comfort, anything lower than that support - unless specified by the manufacturer?
SO now the 2 remaining mattresses would be the Aspen and the Jordan Talalay. While they both contain a total of 6 inches of latex, by comparison I don’t see that they could be any different. The Aspen looks and to me feels like a big slab of foam and the Jordan Talalay looks and feels like a traditional mattress with a pillow top type cover.
I wanted to ask you about what you wrote here… "If you have a choice between two “seemingly equal” options … then slightly firmer in the support layers and thinner in the support layers is generally “safer” for the long term. This is particularly true if the upper layers includes foam that is more likely to soften over time. The bolded part I’m particularly confused by - but that whole passage is confusing to me.
Thanks,
Lara
PS - LOL, I just went back and read my entry from right after we came home from our outing to Dreamline and Denver Mattress Co.
Here’s a quote… “I probably liked the Aspen the least.” :pinch: So even before I tried the Jordan Talalay - when the physical “data” was still fresh, I felt like that mattress was not really in the running. Which is frankly a relief. I feel better about trusting my evaluation then than I do just looking at the information I’ve gathered.
So - here’s the boiled down bottom line question. 2 pronged tho it may be…
Is the quality of the 2 side Jordan Talalay worth $400 or…
Would you be comfortable with the price break vs. R.O.I. on the Dreamline single sided?
Well … at least the final choices are getting smaller
This would be a high quality poly and would be very durable when it is used as the support layer of a mattress. This would be the rough equivalent for example of the support foam used in a Tempurpedic which is in the same “range”. While polyurethane doesn’t have the same performance as latex in terms of how adaptable it is to changes in position or point elasticity and other factors … polyfoam of this density used in a support layer would not be a “weak link” in a mattress.
No … there is no “boundary” between the two primary functions of the mattress. In most cases … layers that are added near the top are added more for their pressure relief qualities (such as memory foam) and layers that are used in the lower layers are used for their support qualities (and middle or transition layers are a combination of both) but every layer of a mattress will have an effect on both. Not only that but what would be a support layer for one person (where they stop sinking down) may be more of a comfort layer for another person that is much heavier … even in the same mattress.
In general though … the closer to the top a layer is the more it will affect pressure relief and “comfort” and the less effect it will have on support. The deeper the layer is the more it will affect support and the less it will affect pressure relief. There are other factors involved here that are more complex such as using a flexible or active base or box spriing with materials that will “bend” into the compression of deeper softer layers (and this would happen more with a more elastic and flexible foam like latex than polyfoam which is stiffer) and this will affect both pressure relief and support. In the same way, in some cases certain materials that are at the very top of a mattress such as a wool topper can prevent thick comfort layers from compressing as much (especially memory foam but other softer foams as well) so this will affect both support/alignment and comfort/pressure relief. In general though, these guidelines (deeper = support and upper = pressure relief/comfort) hold true.
Bearing in mind that your testing would be more important than specs or what I am about to say … with the Dream … my concern would be that there is quite a bit of softer materials in the upper part of the mattress. 3" of memory foam (which may be firm at first but will soften with heat and time over the course of the night) and then there is 2" of latex (which is probably firmer although I don’t know the ILD) and then a layer of convoluted polyfoam (the convoluted part would be softer and then get firmer when you were past the convoluting in the layer). I don’t know the density of this layer and convoluted also has less material than a full layer so is less durable but it is also deeper in the mattress which would mean that it is not as subject to mechanical compression as the upper layers. How it affected durability would depend on how deeply you sank into the mattress in addition to the specs of the layer itself. As you can see, this is sometimes a combination of technical specs and intuition. In any case … my caution is that this may be a fair bit of softer materials for the best alignment for a back sleeper. It may allow the pelvis to rotate (sink deeper) than it should, particularly for a heavier person. This combination of materials would be more risky IMO for a heavier back sleeper.
The “weak link” of the Denver is the 1" of polyfoam in the upper layer but this is within the amount that is normally fine because even if it softens it is a thin enough layer that it will have much less effect on the overall performance of the mattress. The polyfoam in the lower layers is 1.8 lbs which is normally fine for a support layer in terms of durability although it is on the bottom end of the “OK” range.
With the Jordan talalay, it has 2" of 1.5 lb polyfoam on each side which would be the “weak link” here. While it is only 2" (and how it performed would also depend on how it was quilted or tufted etc) and everything below that is latex … when it softened it would affect the overall performance of the mattress more than just an inch of softer polyfoam. This is also offset by the fact that the mattress is two sided and can be flipped which will add to the durability of the polyfoam. Finishing a mattress on two sides is also a more expensive construction. Even though you are not sleeping directly on the latex with this one (which you would be with the Aspen) … there is also the advantage that the entire support layer would be latex which will somewhat make up for the weakness of having 2" of polyfoam on top. This is because when the polyfoam softens … you would tend to sink in more to the latex which will get firmer faster than other foams and “make up” for the extra compression faster so it would stay supportive.
Of course the prices will play a role in all of this and most important of all would be how well they each relieve pressure and keep you in alignment in all your sleeping positions. If I was in your shoes … my testing would play a significant role in my choice. The different looks of each mattress (ie pillowtop vs a “slab” of foam") would not play a role in my decision because no matter how a mattress is constructed … the two main functions of every mattress (pressure relief and alignment) and how well if meets your preferences with things like how it feels when you are still or with movement, how well each isolates movement, how much “in” or “on” each mattress you are, the “springiness” or liveliness of each, and how important it is for you to sleep directly on the latex (which is more breathable and cooler than polyfoam with all else being equal) would be much more important to me.
What I mean by this is that if everything else between two mattresses seems equal and both relieved pressure well, I would tend to go with the one that was a little firmer … especially in the support layers (or had thinner comfort layers which puts you closer to the support). Youu can always make a mattress softer and more pressure relieving but you can’t firm it up as easily and make it more supportive. The most important part … especially with heavier weights … is that alignment is good in all your sleeping positions.
I would be quite comfortable with either of these in terms of “value” (although to save me scanning through many posts it may be worthwhile to post the prices of each again fr “mattress only”). Don’t forget that both of these are better value than what you would likely have purchased in a chain store or in a major brand.
This may also be a case of choosing “firmer” and “less risky” over softer and “more risky” (in other words less soft foam like polyfoam and memory foam on top that can soften and affect alignment over time).
Hope this helps … and trust your body and your intuition more than the specs and you will be fine.
Ok - so maybe this is a game changer? I had conflicting information in terms of what Sandy at Dreamline sent me and what she hand wrote for me when we went to their plant/showroom. As it turns out - on “The Dream” mattress the 2 inches of latex are on the top and then the 3 inches of memory foam. The other layers are the same. Does that make this scenario better? Worse? No different?
Also - just to muddy the waters further (again?), I’m a side sleeper.
I personally would prefer having the latex over the memory foam (it would result in a more lively surface feel and be more breathable). On the other hand … the “softness” of the upper layers would remain the same and there is still a lot of soft foam on the top of the mattress. My personal choice would be to have a little thinner layer of memory foam under the latex and less or no “convoluted” polyfoam although this would of course change the feel of the mattress.
The latex on top would isolate the memory foam from body heat more than sleeping directly on the memory foam so the initial feeling of the memory foam under the latex would be firmer but over the course of the night the memory foam would soften as heat reached it and over time (which is one of the factors that softens memory foam along with heat and humidity levels) you may end up sinking in deeper than you expected with the heavier parts of the body (pelvic area). This can lead to starting off the night in good alignment but waking up in the morning out of alignment. In essence … it would take longer to get to approximately the same level of sinking in than it would if the memory foam was on top of the other layers.
Of course … the specifics of the layers in terms of density and ILD would affect the degree to which this happened and only personal testing can really know for certain how any mattress interacts with the person on it. While I understand that this mattress could be very comfortable for a side sleeper and have a “feel” that was in between latex (on the mattress and more lively) and memory foam (in the mattress and more “dead”) … my “concern” was that it may have thicker/softer layers on top than you really needed and not be as good for your husband who is primarily a back sleeper. If thinner layers of softer foam on top would also give you good pressure relief … then it may be a better “compromise” between you and your husband.
None of this is to say what “will” happen … only a caution with upper layers that may be a little softer/thicker than the “ideal” for your “joint” needs and preferences.
Been a while since I checked in. Wanted to say looks like we’re going to go with the Jordan Brothers Talalay. Now I’m waiting for my husband to tell me I can “pulll the trigger.” I like that he’s fiscally responsible but sometimes waiting is the pits!
So of course “idle hands are the Devil’s tools…” My eye has wandered back over to the IKEA mattresses… Just the edsele and the Heggedal - please feel free to tell me to step IMMEDIATELY away from the IKEA store…
Still haven’t bought the mattress protector either… I think we’ll have to forego the wool ones. THought I was settled on the Protect-a-bed Elite but then seemed to have found better information about a SafeRest (which I think is very similar) and the Malouf (for it’s thin-ness)
ANYWAY… I did have a serious question. I was telling my sister in law about our new mattress purchase and she said she has a latex sensitivity. Would she not be able to get a latex mattress? Or is it far enough removed from actual skin contact that it shouldn’t be an issue?
I think the Jordan Brothers would make a good choice … although I do understand the difficulty of the final elimination process
While I wouldn’t tell you to step away from the Ikea store and they are “better than average” value … I believe that what you are considering is superior to either of the Ikea Dunlop latex mattresses you mentioned. Of course if either Ikea mattress was clearly superior in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) then that would make a big difference but all other things being equal … I personally would tend to go in the direction you are going … especially because you have tested it and it “works” for your needs and preferences.
Foamed latex is quite different from the type of dipped latex (such as gloves, condoms, and other more solid latex products) that some people are sensitive to. A type IV sensitivity is to the latex proteins on the surface and these are mostly removed in the foaming and washing process. It would be very rare for people with a latex sensitivity to have any issues with latex foam and I know people who have been selling latex mattresses for decades and have never encountered a single instance. While anything is possible, the odds are very small indeed that there would be any problems.
Boy, I sure wish we had an IKEA in Little Rock. Not just for the mattresses, but for many reasons. However - it’s certainly not worth a 5 hour drive to try them out.
Thank you for the info on the latex, I will pass that along to my sister in law.
Interesting note, the rest of the thread was very relevant to me. I had back surgery on my L4/L5 discs and my lower back is in sorry shape in general (L5/S1 disc is pretty much blown too). You wrote, “the side position is easier on the spine and the body pillow can help prevent turning onto the stomach. If you tend to move into a half stomach/half side position (with the top leg bent and raised towards your head) then the pillow can help keep you on your side or help support the top leg and keep your spine from twisting as much.” That’s exactly how I sleep.
You did great research and made a good choice… and I hope you have a chance to give us some feedback once you’ve had a chance to sleep on it for a few days.
I also understand that waiting for a new mattress can be one of the hardest parts of all!
As everyone who visits and posts here knows - we all could have used a new mattress probably 6 months to a year ago so now what we know what’s out there and actually coming for us the waiting is agony!
Wow - has it really been a month since I’ve posted!? SO - life after a new mattress… It’s good, we’re happy. I’m assuming there is $1,500 happy and $3,000 happy. If we’d paid $3,000 for this I don’t know that we’d be happy.
All in all - it’s firm, I don’t “bottom out” like I did in our old mattress. I feel like I wake up in better alignment, and not “hitched up” like I used to. I have a couple of really bad spots in my back that literally felt like knife stabbings that I haven’t had. So all definitely good things. I suppose the best thing is that I really for the most part I don’t notice the mattress.
I think I’d like a fluffier “cloud-like” top and maybe that would be the “wow” factor that isn’t there. Maybe there is a topper in my future. I haven’t wanted to broach that with hubby since the large recent purchase - although my birthday is in Sept. Any thoughts on what would add fluffiness?
And now for pillows… I’ll go look for the pillow thread to talk about that…
Thanks for the report … and I agree it really is amazing how quickly time goes by
I guess this would depend on what you mean by"fluffiness". If you are just looking for surface feel and “fluffy, puffy, softness” … then a featherbed or fiberbed (either down or down replacement) may do the trick.
If you need a just little extra pressure relief without sacrificing support … then a fairly thin memory foam, ultra plush latex, shredded latex or even wool topper may work well.
It sounds to me that you have hit the sweet spot in terms of pressure relief and alignment so I wouldn’t play with success too much (a mattress is meant to be "forgotten"rather than “noticed”) but some fine tuning with some softer materials would probably be what you need for “feel”.
If you do a title search on topper there will be quite a few threads come up that you can “scan” with many good options worth considering.
Yes - I would say surface feel, puffy softness. I suppose it’s the difference between firm/utilitarian “doing it’s job” and cozy “nesting” in the bed. I don’t necessarily want to be swallowed up by it, but a little sinking in would be nice.
You can just click on the search link I added in the last post. If you just do a “regular” search instead of a “title search” you will get way to many hits. This way you will have many hits as well but you can just scan the content without having to click on each link that it brings up.
Each person would be different in their preferences of course when it comes to “feel” but if I was in your shoes … and depending on budget … I would probably go with a fiberbed (down alternative) which are widely available, fairly low cost, and good value (you can do a google search for down alternative topper) or with a “shredded” latex topper such as the Seven Comforts (less poofy and firmer than a fiberbed) (Edit: see post #52 here first if you are considering ordering this topper) or the Lanoodles (I havent tried this but it is similar but likely softer but more expensive than the seven comforts) or with a wool fleece topper such as the snugfleece mentioned in post #3 here (along with other types of wool toppers).
Post #10 here also has some good information and resources for “fine tuning” your mattress with different types of mattress protectors, mattress pads, and toppers.
I also meant to mention that my husband has actually been able to sleep on his side for intermittent periods of time, that is huge. He wears a CPAP and most of the time struggles with positioning his mask and hose so for him not to be tethered literally to just sleeping on his back and get comfortable is great.
