Latex Layering Questions

Hi Phoenix,

Back again :slight_smile: So I had a chance to speak a little more with the store owner regarding the transition layer. He indicated it’s more of a “Dunlop thing” and the concept originated from/was more relevant to Dunlop due its’ different overall “feel” (“characteristics” in my mind… denser, higher compression modulus, etc.). This may make some sense, especially since I seemed to notice a more supple feel with the blended LI Talalay as compared to the “stiffer” Talalay GL. The owner also felt that even the 36 ILD was relatively supple (he’s not swaying me with the buzzword of “supple”… I just think it’s a good descriptive term here) and that the overall feel of the mattress goes back to that support layer. Essentially, he feels a transition layer is not really necessary (at least in the majority of cases) due to the inherent characteristics of the blended Talalay.

I don’t necessarily “buy” the whole Dunlop theory, but think he’s at least expressing his opinion based on experience. IMO he has a good, practical focus and stays away from gimmicks/marketing nonsense and “overkill” in general, which I respect. He also told me he ordered the 36 ILD core today and should have it on the floor within a couple weeks which I’m thrilled about… wonder if it’s in part due to enduring my torture the past couple weeks but glad he recognized it may make sense to have that “middle” option available. With your knowledge and contacts I wonder if you know or suspect who I’m dealing with :wink: (though you may often not have time to consider such things :slight_smile: ).

At the end of the day, I can still save considerable money with the DIY and have more flexibility to play with the layering… at least I should be able to try out the “actual” store configuration before making a final decision as to which option makes more sense for me, since there are still “pros” with regards to getting a “finished” mattress (especially one that’s two-sided).

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

He’s correct that Dunlop has a different feel and response curve than Talalay. There is more about how they compare in post #7 here and using Talalay in the core could make “enough” of a difference that it didn’t need a transition layer compared to a similar firmness level of Dunlop (which would “feel” firmer and less resilient).

A difference of 4 ILD is also very small and for many people if the 40 ILD core was too firm then switching it to a 32 ILD medium core (two firmness increments rather than just one) could make enough of a difference that they didn’t need a transition layer.

You’re right that I normally focus more on the materials in your mattress than on which manufacturer you may be dealing with so I don’t normally try and figure it out or think about it. I just assume that you will mention it when you are comfortable doing so. Whoever they are they are certainly taking the time to work closely with you!

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

HNY :slight_smile: In doing some more research, I came across sleeponlatex.com. The site seems to have have some good information and the products appear to be good quality. Are you familiar at all with the site/owner?

Recently, I was a in a local store and checked out the OMI (Organicpedic) Duo… I was surprised to like the feel of the med/soft/soft layering more than the firm/med/soft, although it would be somewhat risky given my body type and sleep preferences (6 ft, 225lbs, side sleeper). It seemed to offer more ‘buoyant’ pressure relief whereas the firmer configuration seemed to “get firm” too quickly. I didn’t have enough time to test it out, but thought a med/med/soft configuration could work. Any thoughts there?

Also, I’m not sure of the approximate ILD and/or density of the OMI Dunlop layers (to my understanding they’ve converted to using Organic Dunlop almost exclusively now and are “phasing out” the Talalay). Would you have any info on the approximate ILD/density of the OMI Dunlop? I’m thinking “firm” would be somewhere in the 35 range in terms of ILD, but not sure “which side” (as in 30-35/35-40) and medium would be around 28-30 (?). I would call to try and pry it out of them but unfortunately they’re closed now.

I’m interested in the blended Dunlop on the SOL site… three, 3 inch layers would be under $750. It’s made in the US according to the site, but I’m not sure of the source or blend (or process for that matter… Mountain Top and Latexco are the only US manufacturers I can think of off the top of my head with MT being the only one that offers cores and thicker pieces). Either way, it appears the owner did his homework and it would be good quality.

If purchasing 3 inch blended Dunlop layers, the firmness options offered on the site are medium (28 ILD/ 4.5 pcf), soft/medium (24 ILD/ 4 pcf) and soft (18 ILD/ 3.5 pcf). Given that I didn’t seem to like the “firm” organic Dunlop base layer in the OMI mattress, I was thinking of trying the med/med-soft/soft with the blended Dunlop. I realize the blended Dunlop will not be as dense overall as all-natural/organic, but figure the “softer” layering could work since it will have essentially the same characteristics and “behave” like Dunlop, with the med/soft acting as a transition layer. Does this make sense or do you think this configuration may be too risky?

Also, I know Talalay latex is considered more breathable than Dunlop due to the cell structure, etc., but is Dunlop still considered to be “open-celled”. I can’t really seem to find a straight answer there, although I’ve come across a few references that indicate Dunlop is still breathable, though probably not to the extent of Talalay.

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

You can see my thoughts about Karl and Sleeponlatex in post #4 here and post #3 here and a forum search on “sleeponlatex” will bring up more information and feedback about them as well. They are certainly a reliable supplier of latex components and toppers which is why they are included in the component supplier list here.

Only you can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone else to be able to predict which mattress design will be the best match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance”. The most reliable way to know whether a mattress is suitable for you is based on your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) or your own sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

There is also more about the different ways to choose a mattress and how to minimize the risks involved with each of them in post #2 here.

It’s not likely that you will be able to find out the ILD or density of the individual layers in the OMI mattresses (and I don’t know them) and I believe that they are one of many companies that treat this as being proprietary information. When you are testing a mattress locally then the ILD of the layers isn’t important to know because your body will tell you much more about whether a mattress is a suitable “match” for you in terms of PPP than the ILD of the layers and ILD itself is also only one of several factors or “specs” that will determine how soft or firm a layer or a mattress will feel to different people and can sometimes be more misleading than helpful (see post #4 here).

Their blended latex is continuous pour Dunlop made by Latexco. While Latexco can make their continuous pour latex in any blend of natural and synthetic rubber … it is typically 20% natural and 80% synthetic.

I would be aware that ILD ratings aren’t directly comparable between different types and blends of latex because they will have a different compression modulus even if the ILD (measured at 25%) and layer thickness is the same.

As I mentioned in my previous replies as well … the only reliable way to know whether any combination of layers will be a good match for you will be based on your own personal testing or experience.

If you are building a DIY mattress then the two most reliable strategies would be to either “duplicate” the materials and components in another mattress that you have tested and confirmed is a good match for you in terms of PPP (assuming that you can find out all the relevant specs including layer thickness, the type and blend of latex, the ILD range of each layer, and the type of cover and quilting material and that you have access to the same materials) or with a bottom up approach where you choose each additional layer of your design based on your actual sleeping experience (see post #2 here).

All latex has an open cell structure (and in most cases pincores as well although they may not go all the way through a layer) and tend to be more breathable than other types of foam materials but Talalay has a more open cell structure than Dunlop and will tend to be more breathable than Dunlop. There is more about the many variables that can affect temperature regulation in post #2 here.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

I haven’t made a final decision yet and still working on getting a good quality foundation… taking forever but seems to be some light at the end of the tunnel. Also, apologies if I came off a little “overly exuberant” on my initial posts (I removed a lot of the wordy/ unnecessary stuff)… had to sort through a lot of “junk” in my head. Anyway, thanks for your patience/tolerance and your responses which, along with testing different mattresses and configurations, really helped me define the options I’m considering.

Generally speaking, I’m down to 3 options- 1) all Talalay, most likely from KTT Enterprises (LI); 2) all-natural Dunlop base layers with Talalay top layer (Henry at Flexus); 3) all-natural Dunlop layers (molded, not continuous pour). I’ll stay away from the configurations/reasoning for now because my immediate question is regarding fillers… been coming across the mention of fillers in some latex quite a bit lately. Usually this is in the context of information on sites that sell all-natural Dunlop… some of these places also sell blended/synthetic Dunlop as well as Talalay. To my understanding LI uses filler in both their blended and all-natural Talalay and Radium does not use filler in either formulation (is this correct?). Do you think that the use of filler should be of concern with regards to the durability/degradation of the latex over time… or that it should have any bearing on the decision to go with LI/Radium/Dunlop?

I’m not as concerned with respect to Dunlop because I would most likely go with all-natural anyway that’s “confirmed” to not have fillers. I’ve even had a couple experienced “latex people” strongly suggest I stick with all-natural/organic molded Dunlop for all the layers since it’s “proven” and has such a long track record (not that Talalay doesn’t at this point)… especially if I wanted to keep things more natural and “true” in the latex material/processing (I realize this can be a complicated/debated topic along with personal preference). I can understand the reasoning there but not completely committed to “all natural”… in fact, if going with Talalay it would be a blend. If going with Dunlop, it’s mainly for simplicity in the layering and the “spirit” of trying to keep things a little more natural…and it seems more difficult to “go wrong” with the all-natural Dunlop, so it’s kind of a safer choice (personally I find the layers easier to configure due to the characteristics of Dunlop).

I was able to speak with Nancy at KTT… after that conversation and a couple others (Ken at Arizona Premium and Dave at CSS in CT) I’m reasonably confident that LI is back on track with their quality control (although it will take a lot more before some are convinced)… so I’m really just wondering about the fundamental use of filler and its’ “effects” on the latex.

That’s it for now- thanks :slight_smile:

Manimal

Hi Manimal,

This is my understanding as well.

The use of fillers in each manufacturers latex compounding formulae is a very complex subject and is really more in the realm of a materials scientist with a PHD degree and years of experience (which I’m not). There are different types of fillers and each of them, along with the quantity used can have such a different effect on both the performance and durability of latex that there aren’t really any simple or generic answers that would be particularly meaningful. In very general terms fillers can be used to increase the firmness of latex, change the properties or change the “feel” of the latex, add fire retardancy, or lower the cost of manufacturing the latex. Past a certain point … the use of “too much” filler can certainly have a negative effect on durability.

Having said that … I would also keep in mind that all latex is a high quality and durable material relative to other types of foam so outside of defective materials or quality control issues you are really comparing differences between high quality and durable materials.

As you mentioned … the use of fillers wouldn’t be an issue with 100% natural molded Dunlop made by the well known manufacturers (such as Latex Green, Arpico, CoCo latex etc) and it also wouldn’t be an issue with any of the Dunlop latex made with the Continuous pour method. The latex where the use of any “hidden” fillers may play a more significant role in durability would generally be with blended molded Dunlop made by some manufacturers and this is the type/blend of latex where I would want to know that there are either no fillers or minimal fillers used in the formula. This may not always be possible to find out because latex compounding formulae in general are closely guarded secrets.

In the case of Latex International … fillers are used at a level that doesn’t diminish product performance over the life of the mattress, but does help reduce production costs. The theory is that it doesn’t make sense to produce a product at a much higher cost that doesn’t greatly outperform the product at a lower cost. In other words … it would have “some effect” on durability but this would be over longer periods of time. At their best … and excluding any quality control issues that may affect the durability of the latex … I would say that in “real life” terms the durability of LI Talalay and Radium Talalay would be very comparable over the length of time that most people would keep their mattress.

You are certainly looking at some good quality/value options and there is more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that may help you make more meaningful comparisons between them.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

I expect to place an order this week for a new foundation from The Organic Mattress Store… they have the WJ Southard foundations which seem to be high quality and including delivery/removal (which I need) they’re a relatively good value. My only other option (and what I thought was my only option, period, before finding TOMS) would be a Sleeptek foundation from The Clean Bedroom… although they’re high quality and have optional screw-in wooden legs, don’t think I can justify spending several hundred $$ more at this point when I have a good bedframe.

Since I’m on the East Coast near the CT border, I’m most likely going to drive to KTT Enterprises and pickup the latex layers. This will hopefully happen on Presidents’ Day if I can confirm they’re open (since they’re closed on weekends). They’re not “close” but probably close enough… and if necessary, I could probably drive back to exchange layers even though this wouldn’t be ideal with their hours, etc.

Anyway, wanted to run something by you after speaking with Arizona Premium a couple weeks ago. They seemed adamant that cutting a 6 inch core into two, 3 inch pieces was not a good idea with respect to the performance and long term durability of the core (and the reason they use split 6" cores with their “shipped” orders). I’ve noticed some other places do this as well… WJ Southard for example with their Dunlop cores. This has me seriously considering wrestling a Queen 6 inch 36 ILD core instead of having it cut (I don’t want a split). I can probably do it (handled 4 inches of all-natural dunlop in the past) but wondering if it’s really worth it and wanted to get your opinion.

Also, I like the Bamboo ‘replacement’ covers at Arizona Premium (the pictures on the site don’t do it justice and a more updated version is shown in some of their newer youtube videos) but I’m not sure if the final height of the mattress will end up at 10 or 11 inches (or 12, who knows) so I may go with the less expensive rayon/cotton 4-way stretch from Sleepez, at least initially, since the 11" model should easily still be tight enough for 10" of latex and also able to accomodate an extra inch if it ends up 12". Even though it’s quilted, I like the combination of “Bamboo” rayon and wool in the AP cover and supposedly the wool is not a really thick layer, so shouldn’t interfere with the feel of the mattress too much. Do you think the rayon/cotton Sleepez cover would have similar or “enough” of the moisture-wicking properties in comparison to the AP cover? I’m not hung-up on this and think my “strategy” is pretty good but wanted to get your thoughts.

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

The foundation post here also includes some good sources for foundations that would be suitable for a latex mattress.

You can see my thoughts about two individual 3" layers vs a single 6" layer in post #2 here.

It would be quite difficult to handle an unsplit 6" core and compress it to dimensions that were small enough to ship by courier and common carrier shipping would be much more costly if you need to return or exchange layers.

I can’t think of a reason I would choose a single “unsplit” core vs a split core if there is a layer of latex on top of it and it has a suitable tight fitting cover.

I’m not personally familiar with either cover so I don’t know how they compare. There is some feedback about the AP stretch knit cover in post #8 here and some feedback about the SleepEZ stretch knit cover in post #1 here that may be helpful.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

I thought it was interesting that Arizona Premium (Ken in particular) was so against 2 Queen 3" layers as opposed to a split 6" layer… he really felt (strongly) that cutting the 6" layer into 3" layers would compromise the integrity and performance (including durability) of the core. Since the consistency of Talalay is so uniform after processing, I’m kind of surprised on his stance and don’t really see why it would make that much of a difference, at least in theory. I guess opinions vary widely in the industry on certain subjects so for whatever reason(s), that’s his opinion based on personal experience and the reason he chooses to go with split 6" cores.

If I didn’t end up going through KTT (where shipping wouldn’t be a concern), mattresses247 could be my primary option for Radium (it’s now between KTT, M247, Arizona Premium, and Flexus). Valerie is super nice as I’m sure you know and her prices are great. I noticed that her “medium” Talalay is listed as 30-32 ILD and asked her if Radium makes blended Talalay outside the “target” ILD’s listed on their site (approximately 29 or 34 for the “medium” range and nothing in between)… she said they do but I was wondering if you had come across this (?) I know her Radium Talalay is distributed by Latexco and was wondering if this could be a “labeling” issue at the distributor (and don’t feel she would intentionally give misinformation)… I just found it strange that Radium would produce ILD’s outside of their published ranges.

Thank you for the links with feedback on the covers as well :slight_smile:

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

You will find that there are many issues in the industry where there isn’t a consensus of opinion and there is legitimate disagreement between different manufacturers/retailers that are all knowledgeable and experienced but have different experiences or beliefs and this is sometimes more of the “norm” than the exception.

You can see Radium’s ILD ranges for their naturalandblendedTalalayhere.Notalldistributorshttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/4https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/5https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/6

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

That’s the chart I was referring to with respect to the ILD range of 30-32 posted on mattresses247 (ebay)… an ILD range of 30-32 is not a range posted on the Radium chart. If I’m reading it correctly, the targets should be 28.6 (+/- 1.7) or 33.5 (+/- 3.0). I assume the “+/-” is the acceptable tolerance on ILD variation with respect to their quality control measures, unless it indicates the range they are able to produce it for a particular customer (which doesn’t seem likely).

I probably should have also mentioned that CSS in CT is not out of the picture… I just wish Dave had some more all-Talalay options on his floor. I won’t list all of the exact specs right here out of consideration but as a reminder I was considering 6" 36 ILD (he only had the 40 ILD version on the floor), 2" and 1" (9" total). I was concerned there wasn’t enough of a comfort layer but he seemed to feel adding 2" of 28 ILD would be “too much latex” (and the 32 ILD core version he had on the floor was too soft for me). At any rate, he and Sara were very nice and helpful but I think he decided to stick to his guns (the configurations he has offered for decades) which I can understand.

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

The specs I posted come directly from Radium so I know they are correct. Latex ILD’s are never exact and the range is the range of variance on either side of their target that is acceptable on each core. They test their cores in 15 places and the ILD for each measurement can be different from the ILD measurements in other areas of the same core.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

I trust the chart you provided is correct (for some reason I was confused and thought it actually came from the Radium website) and have a general understanding of the ILD measurements… point being that if the targets for the blended in your chart are what Radium produces, it doesn’t seem accurate to have an ILD listed as 30-32, or 36, etc., for that matter as I’ve seen on some sites (for Radium blended) because there is no target ILD that would indicate cores/pieces created consistently in the 30-32 range (because 30-32 is not an actual range based on the target).

I don’t mean to belabor it but it is a little concerning/perplexing.

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

I completely agree that ILD specs can be perplexing and confusing … especially when you are trying to compare different types or blends of latex or different materials or in some cases the same type of material that is made by different manufacturers (see post #6 here). The ILD of a material (including latex) is never exact and is also only one of the factors that can affect the softness or firmness of a mattress or an individual layer (see post #4 here). In some cases a manufacturer may list approximate ILD information that covers a range that would apply to different materials because they know that smaller differences in ILD (less than about 4 ILD or so) aren’t something that most people would be able to tell the difference anyway. Unless you have a great deal of experience with testing or sleeping on different combinations of materials you may not have the personal reference points to “translate” ILD information into something meaningful that will tell you how certain combinations of materials will actually feel to you and focusing on ILD alone can often be more misleading than helpful.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Been a little while but I managed to get everything together and have been testing configurations for the last couple months. The people at KTT have been great and I can’t say enough about how accomodating and easy (and nice) they have been to deal with… I recommend them to anyone looking to do a DIY with Talalay. They are also very knowledgable and able to provide good advice with respect to layering (and of course many other mattress/industry topics)… even so, as you have said before and my experience shows, anyone looking to do a DIY setup should have realistic expectations and understand there can be multiple factors to consider- time, effort, shipping/return costs (if applicable)- just to name a few. IMO a ‘sprit of experimentation’ is a prerequisite.

Before I get into the recap, I just wanted to clarify something from the last posts in early February- using the Radium 34 ILD blended as an example (according to the chart you’ve provided in the forum) - some of the top online latex sellers seem to use 30-32 ILD as the ‘range’, not 34 (or 33-35/36, etc.). I think those sellers are getting the latex from Latexco and using the range they list… do you think they list it as 30-32 because that’s what they find the ‘feel’ to be? One would think that if ‘34’ (or 33.x) is the ILD listed by the manufacturer, +/- whatever the tolerance may be, then that’s the accurate range that should be depicted by the seller. Technically speaking, 30-32 is simply not accurate. That said, I know (especially now) that in real life, the difference will be negligible, although I can clearly tell the difference between 32 ILD LI blended and 36 ILD LI blended for example… 36 ILD is (very) noticeably firmer.

Overall, I’m very, very surprised at how ‘soft’ the configurations I’ve tried have felt compared to Latex Bliss and other mattresses I’ve tried in stores. I got the 12" cover from Sleepez (made to fit 11" of latex but can take an extra inch, possibly two)- as a reminder I’m 6ft, ~230 lbs, mostly side sleeper, mid 30’s. My base layer has remained 6" of 36 ILD (two, 3" layers)- here are the configurations I’ve slept on, in sequence (all listed from top layer down) and comments:

  1. way too soft… went right through the top layers and was out of alignment
    1" 14 ILD
    2" 19 ILD
    2" 28 ILD
    6" 36 ILD

  2. not so thick that i was way out of alignment but just felt like i went through the 19 too much and didn’t have quite enough support
    2" 19 ILD
    2" 28 ILD
    6" 36 ILD

  3. decided anything in the teens was too soft for me so swapped the 1" 14 ILD and 2" 19 ILD for one piece of 3" 24 ILD… even the below seemed just too soft with respect to the top layer and I was out of alignment/sank in too much
    3" 24 ILD
    2" 28 ILD
    6" 36 ILD

  4. tried taking out the 2" 28 ILD and just sleeping on the 3" 24 ILD over the 36… the 24 just didn’t feel supportive enough and I bottomed-out
    3" 24 ILD
    6" 36 ILD

  5. tried just the 2" 28 ILD over the 36 and this wasn’t too bad in terms of alignment, but just didn’t have the depth/pressure relief (not surprisingly)
    2" 28 ILD
    6" 36 ILD

  6. swapped the 3" 24 ILD for 3" 32 ILD and used the 2" 28 ILD as the top layer… i can live with this for now but still seem to sink in too much, so think 3" 36 ILD would have been better with an additional inch of soft on top of the 28 if necessary
    2" 28 ILD
    3" 32 ILD
    6" 36 ILD

I also tried a ‘dominating layer’ setup with 3" 24 ILD under the 2" 28 ILD… no go, I just crushed the 24 ILD and was out of alignment. Other than that, I slept on any configuration for a least a few nights.

KTT confirmed that the ‘Active Fusion’ latex in the Bliss models is ‘stiffer’ than regular blended Talalay… it seems that, combined with the way the fire barrier is ‘strapped down’/around the latex and the overall mattress construction contributes to the firmer feeling of the PLB mattresses. Going by specs alone, the PLB Beautiful would appear way too soft for me… it wasn’t… I didn’t sink in the way I did with my own configurations and was well supported. The PLB Nature was obviously even firmer/more supportive and felt much different than the 2" 19 ILD, 2" 28 ILD, 6" 36 ILD configuration I tried in my own bed. I’m just about positive sleeping on the Nature (without a topper) would lead to soreness/pressure on my side and hip and I’ve read quite a few reviews online where people who purchased the mattress had that issue.

I’m OK with my current configuration for now- and may even try putting the 2" 28 under the 3" 32- however, at this point my preference (for a variety of reasons) is probably to have a ‘finished’ mattress, so any more money in my pocket would likely go towards that down the road. KTT was great about exchanges (I’m within driving distance) but I know enough now that even requesting any further exchanges isn’t necessary.

Even though it doesn’t look like I’ll be keeping my current setup long term, to me there was enough value in the experimenting to justfiy the financial expenditure. Also, KTT is so reasonably priced and accomodating that I was able to manage the financial side within ‘reasonable enough’ limits. I’m certainly not a good example of ‘value’ overall, but to me the experimenting was fun and I decided to kind of serve as a guinea pig… so hopefully a few people on MU who come across these posts will find the information helpful (and hopefully it won’t scare them away :)).

I’ll likely end up going with CSS in CT… I now understand why Dave sticks to the constructions he’s been selling for many years. He’s also carrying the latest PLB mattresses now, so that will help at least for comparison. I probably would have been happy going with his ‘Ultra Performance’ initially, but guess I just needed to go through this process… it’s definitely been a learning experience.

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with so many different combinations … I appreciate it :). I think your comments will certainly give a good sense to many other forum members of the many variables that can come into play. Given your weight range I’m not surprised that ILD ranges in the teens are too soft for you and even the low 20’s would be too soft for many people in your weight range (although the softer ranges could be fine for some people as a “feel” layer … especially in thin layers).

Each manufacturer would be the most reliable source of information about this or where their specs come from or why they list them the way they do but many manufacturers change suppliers from time to time or may use one supplier for their natural and another for their blended so the specs they list may just be “approximations” that are “close enough” to keep things simple enough for 99% of their customers. Most of their customers wouldn’t know how a combination of certain ILD’s would translate into their own real life experience anyway so they would even be fine with “word” approximations such as soft/medium/firm. To make matters even more confusing, even Radium and Latex International/Talalay Global ILD ratings aren’t exact matches to each other in terms of how the same ILD feels either so it would overwhelm most customers if they listed every ILD of every type and blend of latex they may carry over time and then in addition to this tried to explain how the same ILD may be different firmnesses between different manufacturers or blends of latex. Experience tends to quickly show manufacturers that “too much” information or specificity can cost sales because it overwhelms most people. Most people don’t notice much if any difference between ILD variations that are about 3 or less unless they are more sensitive than most and even this is inside the tolerance range of most firmness ratings.

As you mentioned the PLB fire barriers are quite thick and fit around the layers like a fitted sheet )with the thick part on top) and would have a significant effect on how the latex underneath it feels. Without the thick fire barrier (and I know some people that have just removed it) the latex would feel softer and more contouring and more like their ILD ratings.

It’s especially great that you approached your experimentation with a “spirit of adventure” and it’s clear that you certainly learned a great deal about what works best for you in the process! Many consumers believe that mattress theory and design is more simple than it really is (and for some that seem to be able to sleep on anything it may be) but the reality is that even after years of experience the learning curve about how different people interact with different combinations of layers and components and covers and the different construction techniques that can be used never really ends.

Thanks again for taking the time to share some great information :slight_smile:

Phoenix

My pleasure :slight_smile: Did some further testing and have a little more info to add-

Even 2" 28 ILD on top of the 3" 32 and 6" 36 resulted in some alignment issues so I realized that just the 3" 32 ILD on top of the 6" 36 should suffice for the time being… and while I was taking out the 2" 28 I tried two other configurations (not exactly a relaxing evening):

As suspected, the “dominant layer” setup didn’t really change anything and even though the 32 ILD had a slightly firmer surface feel, the overall setup was still extremely soft as I just went through the 28 and wasn’t properly supported.
3" 32 ILD
2" 28 ILD
6" 36 ILD

This one I thought very well could be the answer to my situation, so I was very surprised at how having the 2" 28 ILD as the bottom/base layer made the setup one of the softest I had tried… I never thought it would affect the overall feel as much as it did. Even with the 32 ILD as the top layer, it just wasn’t supportive enough.
3" 32 ILD
6" 36 ILD
2" 28 ILD

So I ended up with the basic 3" 32 ILD on top of the 6" 36 ILD… it doesn’t quite have the “depth” or overall feel I’m looking for, but so far it seems to be supportive enough without being too firm. IMO, anyone researching latex/latex mattresses shouldn’t get carried away with assessing ILD numbers “on paper” (as you’ve said many times, nothing trumps personal experience)… for example, I wouldn’t have thought 3" 32 ILD would be “soft” enough as a comfort layer… but it’s plenty soft in and of itself and I would think a lot of people with various builds/weights/sleeping preferences would be happy having it as a top layer in a DIY mattress with proper support below below it (perhaps especially if they didn’t actually know the ILD was 32). That said, having 32 ILD as the top layer on a PLB mattress with (firmer) support layers underneath and a thick fire barrier strapped over would feel extremely firm and completely different than in a DIY mattress with a stretch-knit cover (like the Sleep EZ).

Which reminds me- the Sleep EZ poly/rayon/cotton encasement (cover) is extremely nice. It’s well-constructed with a sturdy zipper (it’s sure held up to the abuse I’ve been putting it through)… the sides are the same material/hand feel as the top but have some structure and do not stretch like the top (this is a good thing). The top is very stretchy (and soft) and really allows you to feel the latex underneath. I wish PLB would use something like that- with the fire-retardant rayon fibers stitched into the cover- instead of having a separate, thicker barrier underneath the cover material. I got the “12,000” model which is supposed to be for 11" of latex… it can easily fit 12" and potentially 13" so if I end up continuing with my project, will shoot for a full 12" of latex… overall, in my experience it’s best to have the cover fit as tightly as possible (within reason of course). The cover also seems to be very breathable and “moisture-wicking”.

I’m debating on where to go from here- if I continued (and hopefully finished if that’s the case) the DIY project, I could talk to KTT one more time and try this setup:

2" 28 ILD (possibly adding 1 more inch of 19 or 24 for a total of 3" on top)
3" 36 ILD
3" 36 ILD
3" 40 ILD

That should have the support I require with some softness on the top, with enough depth and support… it seems the main issue I’ve had is with the layers underneath the top 2-3" not being supportive enough (for me), so 2" 28 on top of 3" 32 acts like 5" of a very soft comfort layer. I think 6" 36 (with 3" 40 as the base) underneath the softer top layer would be supportive enough and still have a little “give”, but prevent the mattress from “hammocking” under my weight.

I wrote the above last week and wasn’t able to finish/post… at this point, I do like the thought of having a finished mattress and was able to visit CSS over the weekend. They’re carrying the current PLB mattresses now (Pamper, Nature, Beautiful) so I was able to check them out again (last time was another place around a year ago) and was again, very surprised.

I knew from your updates in the forum that PLB had updated the specs on the top 3 inches of the beautiful to 15 ILD, from 21 ILD. It felt the way I think it probably should have initially, with the upper layers very plush… the one I felt about a year ago must have been 21 ILD because it had a much firmer surface feel/support… it was night and day.

The Beautiful would be very risky for me, given the softness of the “new” version, so I tried the Nature and was surprised at how good it felt… it wasn’t nearly as “hard” on top (as the one I tried previously) and seemed to have just the right amount of softness/plushness, but not to the point where I sank through and felt like I wasn’t supported. Sara actually said the top 2 inches was now 15 ILD… I hadn’t read that anywhere and was wondering if you came across any updates to the Nature along with the Beautiful (?)

The Nature at CSS was the best-feeling latex mattress I’ve tried… and that’s saying a lot… but I’m extremely concerned about the apparent lack of consistency with the PLB mattresses. I’ve come across numerous reviews/feedback about the Nature feeling great in the store, then feeling like a board after some unfortunate soul spent ~3k and received the mattress (and it doesn’t “soften up”). One online review was as recent as the end of 2014. I almost wonder if some of the floor models have the FR barrier removed (?) That shouldn’t be the case- they should be shown in the same form they’ll be used- but regardless, it seems like the specs and/or feel have been all over the place, without a lot of available information from PLB to provide clarification for consumers.

Based on the model at CSS, I’m heavily leaning towards the Nature (if you couldn’t tell). Although I don’t exactly relish the thought of spending money on a new mattress, I really like the thought of being comfortable and ending this search. However, I feel purchasing a PLB mattress is a significant risk- if the mattress ends up feeling much firmer than expected, they will most likely label it as a “comfort” issue and not offer further assistance- not to mention the potential hassle for me, even if they were willing to do an exchange. Also, after speaking with LI/PLB a few times in the past, I’m skeptical about their overall customer service and accuracy of information… again, really the overall consistency with respect to LI/PLB.

If I could confirm to a reasonable certainty that the Nature would feel “right”, then it’s the one for me. The DIY project was worthwhile despite spending some money, but at least right now I don’t think I really want to put more time/money into it. Overall, I’m just feeling a bit “gun shy” at present… any thoughts/ confirmations you’re able to provide on the points mentioned above would be much appreciated, as always.

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

Thanks for taking the time to add all the additional comments about your testing and experience … I appreciate all of them once again :slight_smile:

You’re certainly not the first to notice the difference that a softer layer on the bottom of a mattress can make a significant difference in how it feels. Most people that have tried one of the PLB mattresses on their latex foundation (which has 4" of 19 ILD latex) will tell you that the difference is very noticeable. Another forum member jkozlow3 also did some experimentation with softer layers on the bottom and in their case this was their strong preference no matter what the layering was on top of it (see their comments in point #6 here). The deeper layers will make much less difference in terms of PPP if they are similar or firmer than the layers above them but if they are softer than the layers above them then the upper layers will still “bend in” to the softer layers and the difference will be much more noticeable. This is what I refer to as “sinking down” (with the softer bottom layer) vs “sinking in” (with softer upper layers). For some people this would be an improvement in terms of PPP and for others like yourself this may be detrimental.

I would completely agree with your comments here and there are even some people that do very well with comfort layers that are even firmer than 32 ILD. With a 3" comfort layer and then a firmer support core underneath it and given your experience with additional 2" layers you are probably at the point where 1" layers either over or under the top layer or differences in the cover would be the way to do any additional fine tuning that would change the “feel” with less effect on the supportive properties of the mattress. Changing layer thickness can have just as significant of an effect as changing layer softness to achieve the final outcome you are looking for.

Thanks for the feedback about their cover as well. Your comments are similar to other forum members that have also purchased it and liked it a great deal as well.

My general approach would be to work from the “bottom up” so if the 3" of 32 ILD on top of 6" of 36 ILD is “very close” then it may just be a matter of adding another inch on top for some of the additional softness, “feel” and the “depth” of secondary support that you are looking for. If you do decide to go in this direction and all you need is a thicker mattress then once you have the final configuration you are looking for then adding any extra height you need may just be a matter of adding the firmest possible layer on the bottom of your mattress as a “filler” which would probably have the least effect on the mattress overall.

Having 2" of 28 on top of the 6" of 36 ILD could feel a little firmer on the surface (because you are closer to the firmer 36 ILD layer) but the additional 3" of 40 ILD latex on the bottom may be enough to compensate for this to some degree in the other direction (softer) with the extra thickness of the mattress.

You are really at the point though where there are so many moving variables and subjective perceptions involved with each different combination that would be unique to each person that “theory” would be ineffective and your own experience will really be the most reliable way to know. It’s “somewhat” simple to predict the effect of a single minor change to the design of a mattress (say one increment of firmness for a single layer or an additional inch of material) but it’s more difficult to predict the effect of two or more changes or larger changes because of how all the layers can interact differently with with each other and with different body types and sleeping positions.

The specs that are listed in post #2 here came from a reliable source and were the 2014 specs. As far as I know they have always been correct since they introduced the new lineup (although there has always been some speculation about the ILD of the layers and some of the specs that were listed around the web were probably incorrect).

It’s possible that they changed the specs for 2015 but I don’t have any information about this one way or the other.

I have certainly heard reports about inconsistency in firmness and while I know that some of them are probably “true” … I also tend to take these types of more isolated reports with a grain of salt because you will find the same complaint that “my mattress isn’t the same as the one I tried” for almost every mattress on the market.

There are many reasons that could cause this but the biggest one is that human memory for softness, firmness, and “feel” is also very short term, subjective, and relative to more recent experience and is often unreliable. A mattress that feels different to what someone “remembers” a mattress feels like may end up being more similar than they remember (or vice versa) if they were to compare them side by side in “real time”. Most people have had the experience of testing mattresses say in the morning and then testing mattresses somewhere else and then going back to test the first mattresses again later in the day and finding they feel different from what they remember because their frame of reference has changed with the other mattresses they have tested. This in combination with the fact that many consumers don’t spend enough time on a mattress to really be able to predict what it will feel like when they actually sleep on it once they have fully relaxed (like they would be when they are going to sleep at night) leads to most of the “inconsistent” reviews that you will see.

Some of the other reasons for these types of reports (outside of the mattress actually being different which is also possible) would include that most testing in a showroom is on a bare mattress and a mattress protector, mattress pad, or even sheets can make a difference in how a mattress feels at home compared to how it felt in a showroom.

The foundation under a mattress can also make a significant difference and if someone is using a foundation that is different from the one in the store this can make a significant difference as well. The PLB foundation itself could also be part of the issue and there are many retailers that won’t sell it because of the wide spacing between the slats that could also cause issues either initially or over a relatively short period of time.

None of this is not to discount the fact that there could be some “real” consistency issues from time to time but these would be less common than the other reasons for these types of reviews and reports.

Phoenix

There were no changes made to the specs at market this year, with the exception of the addition of the new hybrid line.

Thanks for your comment Jeff (and Phoenix for all of your feedback)- it really seems like there’s “something going on” there… the Nature in the showroom felt very soft at top and the store manager confirmed it was 15 without me asking or provoking the information… I may have just commented on how the feel was softer than the other version I had tried.

At this point, I have a pretty good sense of the differences in feel of various ILD targets/ ranges…the Nature/Beautiful I tried around a year ago were almost without a doubt, 21 ILD for the top layer. The only possible factor I can think of that could (potentially) have such a significant impact on the feel would be the FR barrier… but I have to assume for the time being that the FR barrier was intact on the mattresses I tested this past weekend (leaving the ILD as the culprit).

It could also be possible that this particular retailer has the Nature made according to slightly different specs than the “regular” Nature… they have very close ties to LI/PLB. I’l have to speak to them and see if I can get a final confirmation before making a decision.

Thanks,
Manimal