Latex Layering Questions

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

Phoenix used to post on ‘whatsthebest-mattress’, possibly as early as 2005/2006 or earlier unless my memory betrays me.

I think your memory may be reaching back a little too far … the time I was posting on WTB was in 2010 :).

One of the first things that I (or anyone) learns in this industry is that each person can be very different in their individual needs and preferences so there are too many unknowns, variables, and individual preferences involved to be able to predict which mattress will be best for someone else based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). I’m always happy to help with “how” to choose and the steps I would follow but the only way to know which mattress or which combination of layers is best for you is based on your own testing or sleeping experience. There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress and how to minimize the risks involved in each of them in post #2 here.

[quote]I’m a guy, mostly side sleeper, about 6 ft 220 lbs.- late 30’s, ‘former’ athlete with overall solid build (a bit out of shape right now)- spent as much time as possible lying on my side on the mattress (and others) in the store. It was a fairly firm mattress but had a nice ‘springy’ feel on top, given the latex layers (‘all natural’ Talalay from LI). I wasn’t provided (and didn’t press for) the exact layering but don’t believe it contained any extra plush (lower than 19 ILD) latex in the comfort layers. The support layer was very firm polyfoam… I believe 2.8 lb density.

Ordered the mattress… noticed pretty quickly that I had pressure point build up, my side was sore during the night and after I woke up… just wasn’t comfortable. Gave it a few weeks too… thought about adding a topper but the mattress was already so thick it would have caused other issues with my sheets/bedding… at that point just wanted to try something else.[/quote]

It would be helpful to know the specs of this mattress such as the layer thickness and ILD range for the comfort and support layers and the type of cover. With the specs you could use it as a reference point to help “bracket” the specs of mattresses that are either too firm or too soft for you. Without knowing the specs though it won’t be much help in choosing a different mattress that has a softer comfort layer.

Then I swung to the other end of the spectrum… they allowed an exchange to another hybrid with a softer HD polyfoam base and softer latex comfort layers (about 5 inches. ‘all natural’ Talalay). Ended up being out of alignment and ‘going through’ the thick, soft, comfort layers. Also found the quilting very warm… I like to sleep cool.

Again … it would be helpful to know the specs of this mattress as well so that you have the specs of a mattress on the other end of the scale to help you “bracket” your firmness choices.

They’re overkill… a marketing baby designed to charge higher prices. They’re essentially designed so that a topper is almost a prerequisite on the models below the Beautiful… even the beautiful has a relatively ‘rubbery’ (sorry… best way I can describe it) surface feel, with the 3 inches of 21 ILD on the top layer, that could easily drive people to a topper… or the World’s Best.

If any mattress that is firmer than the Beautiful feels too firm for you then that would put you “outside the averages” for your body weight. The top 3" of the Beautiful is 15 ILD (not 21 ILD) and 3" of 15 ILD with another 3" of 24 ILD underneath it could be a “risky” choice for your body type in terms of alignment. The Worlds Best Bed with 4" of 15 ILD on top would be even more risky. More “average” comfort and transition layers for your weight rage would be firmer and based on “theory” the Nature with the 2" of 21 ILD with 2" of 28 ILD underneath it (without a topper) would be in a more “average” range for your weight. The PLB specs are in post #2 here.

[quote]At this point, I’m looking to purchase or design a DIY mattress without a separate topper. I recently had the opportunity to try out two mattresses in a relatively local store- blended Talalay (LI Talatech), both had a 6 inch base layer with 2 inches of 19 ILD and 1 inch of 14 ILD on top. The softer version had a 32 ILD base… too soft. Although I’m not sure of the precise specs of the upper layers on my current mattress, the base is ~32 ILD (all natural) with soft layers on top… 9 inches of latex.

The firmer version- 40 ILD base layer- was much better, but I could kind of sense the firmness on bottom and was concerned it could become an issue… so figured I could go with the one in the middle- 36 ILD base- although it would be an educated guess if I ordered since it wasn’t available to try in the store. After trying the Latex Bliss mattresses and others with a 36 ILD base… that seems to be my number with regards to a support layer.[/quote]

If you are confident that your testing on the local mattress would be a good “match” in terms of predicting your actual sleeping experience then it would make a good reference point or “blueprint” for a DIY mattress. Before considering a DIY mattress though I would make sure that you read option #3 in post #15 here so that you have realistic expectations of the trial and error ad learning curve that may be involved and in some cases the additional costs that may be involved if you aren’t able to return any of the layers you purchase if the layers you purchase don’t turn out as well as you hoped for when you sleep on them.

Given your comments about any of the PLB mattresses that were firmer than the Beautiful (such as the Nature which has 2" of 21 ILD over 2" of 28 ILD on a 36 ILD core it would be somewhat surprising if 2" of 19 ILD and an inch of 14 ILD on top of a 40 ILD core would feel good to you or that you wouldn’t feel too much of the firmness of the support core “through” the top layers but once again personal experience always “trumps” theory.

Just as a reference point, the PLB Pamper has 6" of 40 ILD for a support core and then a comfort layer of 2" of 21 ILD (almost identical to the 2" of 19 ILD) and this would normally be a fair bit too firm for most people unless they only sleep on their back or stomach and the only real difference between this and the firmer version of the mattress you tested in the store is the additional 1" of 14 ILD on top.

If you do decide to go with a DIY approach then I would tend to take a “bottom up” approach because the choice of your support core will have a significant effect on the thickness and firmness of the comfort layers on top of it that will be suitable for you. If you start with a 6" core and add a softer 2" to 3" comfort layer (or a transition layer) that “in theory” would either be clearly too firm (in the case of a transition layer if you were planning to add an additional layer) or relatively close (if you are planning to only have two layers) but always making sure that you err on the side of firmness with your initial choices then you can use your actual sleeping experience to decide on what to add on top of your initial choices or on any exchanges you may need to make to "finish your mattress. This way you can make each layer choice (or exchange) based on what you learned from your actual experience on the previous combination and work towards your ideal design one step at a time. A 36 ILD support core would make sense “in theory” because it would allow for the choice of thicker and softer comfort layers than would likely work well with a 32 ILD support core but again the only way to know whether any combination will work well for you with any certainty would be based on your own personal testing or actual sleeping experience because every layer or change from one design to another will have some effect on the feel and performance of all the other layers in a mattress.

The ticking is a bamboo rayon and I think (finally) this brings me to my first question: It’s not as much of a ‘stretch knit’ as I would prefer and there’s a soft bamboo rayon surface material with a mesh rayon backing and then a thin ‘fiber pad’ layer of rayon adhered. I spoke with Milliken and it sounds like it’s all ‘inherently’ fire retardant (the whole viscose/silica thing) but I really want to get something as safe and ‘healthy’ as possible. How do you think the cover just described compares to the ‘original’ Sleep-Ez stretch knit cover (not the newer organic cotton cover with rayon backing) which I know does not have any kind of rayon ‘fiber pad’ and relies on the inherently fiber retardant fibers stitched into the cover. Although the surface feel is nice, I don’t understand why a ‘fiber pad’ would be used (although the ticking is still fairly thin overall)… I’m guessing durability and ensuring the integrity of the ticking ‘construction’?

As far as I’m aware … both the old and the new SleepEZ cover have a “viscose/silica” inherent fire barrier similar to the one you are describing (although it may be a different thickness) but I don’t know the specifics and I’ve never seen either one so you would need to call SleepEZ to find out for certain.

The local business obviously has to make some money, so it would be the pricier option… which brings me to the DIY option. I could get the Sleep-Ez cover and duplicate the ‘local mattress’, saving a lot of $$$. Yes, there’s the factor of handling substantially heavy (Queen) latex layers and the possibility of endlessly adjusting the layers, never to find the ‘perfect’ configuration, but I feel as though the ability to adjust the layers may be a positive thing for me. I also like the idea of a transition layer and concerned that the local option is really a ‘modified differential’ construction, with essentially a firm base and the comfort layers ‘doing the work’. The owner did mention feedback on the 19 ILD latex was great.

If you have tested a mattress in person and you are confident it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP then it could certainly be a good starting point for a DIY mattress but if you are uncertain then I would make sure that any of the layers you purchase have a good exchange or return policy.

[quote]1) 3 inch 36 ILD + 3 inch 36 ILD + 2 inch 24 ILD (transition layer) + 2 inch 14 ILD

2. 2 inch 40 ILD + 3 inch 36 ILD + 2 inch 24 ILD (transition layer) + 2 inch 14 ILD[/quote]

Most people wouldn’t notice a great deal of difference between these two since the top 7" would be the same although “in theory” #2 would be a little firmer of course. Both of them would have comfort layers that are a little softer than “average” although there are many people who are used to softer mattresses or are OK with the higher alignment risks that may be involved.

1) 3 inch 36 ILD + 3 inch 28 ILD (transition layer) + 3 inch 19 ILD (could always add an inch or two of 14 ILD later if desired a little more surface softness)… I think someone else in the forum ended up doing this configuration with the Sleep-Ez cover

This would probably be a little bit of a “safer” choice but again I would make sure that you can exchange layers so that you aren’t “stuck” with your initial choices if you need something firmer or softer. In this case I would probably start with just the support core and the 3" of 28 and then use what you “learn” from sleeping on this directly (even though it will likely be too firm for you) to decide on the thickness and firmness of your top layer.

To the degree possible (with the exception of say an inch or so as a “feel” layer) … I would tend to avoid 14 ILD.

Phoenix