Latex Layering Questions

[Manimal]

Hi Phoenix,

I thought it was interesting that Arizona Premium (Ken in particular) was so against 2 Queen 3" layers as opposed to a split 6" layer… he really felt (strongly) that cutting the 6" layer into 3" layers would compromise the integrity and performance (including durability) of the core. Since the consistency of Talalay is so uniform after processing, I’m kind of surprised on his stance and don’t really see why it would make that much of a difference, at least in theory. I guess opinions vary widely in the industry on certain subjects so for whatever reason(s), that’s his opinion based on personal experience and the reason he chooses to go with split 6" cores.

If I didn’t end up going through KTT (where shipping wouldn’t be a concern), mattresses247 could be my primary option for Radium (it’s now between KTT, M247, Arizona Premium, and Flexus). Valerie is super nice as I’m sure you know and her prices are great. I noticed that her “medium” Talalay is listed as 30-32 ILD and asked her if Radium makes blended Talalay outside the “target” ILD’s listed on their site (approximately 29 or 34 for the “medium” range and nothing in between)… she said they do but I was wondering if you had come across this (?) I know her Radium Talalay is distributed by Latexco and was wondering if this could be a “labeling” issue at the distributor (and don’t feel she would intentionally give misinformation)… I just found it strange that Radium would produce ILD’s outside of their published ranges.

Thank you for the links with feedback on the covers as well

Thanks,
Manimal

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

I thought it was interesting that Arizona Premium (Ken in particular) was so against 2 Queen 3" layers as opposed to a split 6" layer… he really felt (strongly) that cutting the 6" layer into 3" layers would compromise the integrity and performance (including durability) of the core. Since the consistency of Talalay is so uniform after processing, I’m kind of surprised on his stance and don’t really see why it would make that much of a difference, at least in theory. I guess opinions vary widely in the industry on certain subjects so for whatever reason(s), that’s his opinion based on personal experience and the reason he chooses to go with split 6" cores.

You will find that there are many issues in the industry where there isn’t a consensus of opinion and there is legitimate disagreement between different manufacturers/retailers that are all knowledgeable and experienced but have different experiences or beliefs and this is sometimes more of the “norm” than the exception.

she said they do but I was wondering if you had come across this (?)

You can see Radium’s ILD ranges for their naturalandblendedTalalayhere.Notalldistributorshttps://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/0https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/1https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/2https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/3https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/4https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/5https://uploads.mattressunderground.com/outside/6

Phoenix

[Manimal]

Hi Phoenix,

That’s the chart I was referring to with respect to the ILD range of 30-32 posted on mattresses247 (ebay)… an ILD range of 30-32 is not a range posted on the Radium chart. If I’m reading it correctly, the targets should be 28.6 (+/- 1.7) or 33.5 (+/- 3.0). I assume the “+/-” is the acceptable tolerance on ILD variation with respect to their quality control measures, unless it indicates the range they are able to produce it for a particular customer (which doesn’t seem likely).

I probably should have also mentioned that CSS in CT is not out of the picture… I just wish Dave had some more all-Talalay options on his floor. I won’t list all of the exact specs right here out of consideration but as a reminder I was considering 6" 36 ILD (he only had the 40 ILD version on the floor), 2" and 1" (9" total). I was concerned there wasn’t enough of a comfort layer but he seemed to feel adding 2" of 28 ILD would be “too much latex” (and the 32 ILD core version he had on the floor was too soft for me). At any rate, he and Sara were very nice and helpful but I think he decided to stick to his guns (the configurations he has offered for decades) which I can understand.

Thanks,
Manimal

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

If I’m reading it correctly, the targets should be 28.6 (+/- 1.7) or 33.5 (+/- 3.0). I assume the “+/-” is the acceptable tolerance on ILD variation with respect to their quality control measures, unless it indicates the range they are able to produce it for a particular customer (which doesn’t seem likely).

The specs I posted come directly from Radium so I know they are correct. Latex ILD’s are never exact and the range is the range of variance on either side of their target that is acceptable on each core. They test their cores in 15 places and the ILD for each measurement can be different from the ILD measurements in other areas of the same core.

Phoenix

[Manimal]

Hi Phoenix,

I trust the chart you provided is correct (for some reason I was confused and thought it actually came from the Radium website) and have a general understanding of the ILD measurements… point being that if the targets for the blended in your chart are what Radium produces, it doesn’t seem accurate to have an ILD listed as 30-32, or 36, etc., for that matter as I’ve seen on some sites (for Radium blended) because there is no target ILD that would indicate cores/pieces created consistently in the 30-32 range (because 30-32 is not an actual range based on the target).

I don’t mean to belabor it but it is a little concerning/perplexing.

Thanks,
Manimal

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

I don’t mean to belabor it but it is a little concerning/perplexing.

I completely agree that ILD specs can be perplexing and confusing … especially when you are trying to compare different types or blends of latex or different materials or in some cases the same type of material that is made by different manufacturers (see post #6 here). The ILD of a material (including latex) is never exact and is also only one of the factors that can affect the softness or firmness of a mattress or an individual layer (see post #4 here). In some cases a manufacturer may list approximate ILD information that covers a range that would apply to different materials because they know that smaller differences in ILD (less than about 4 ILD or so) aren’t something that most people would be able to tell the difference anyway. Unless you have a great deal of experience with testing or sleeping on different combinations of materials you may not have the personal reference points to “translate” ILD information into something meaningful that will tell you how certain combinations of materials will actually feel to you and focusing on ILD alone can often be more misleading than helpful.

Phoenix

[Manimal]

Hi Phoenix,

Been a little while but I managed to get everything together and have been testing configurations for the last couple months. The people at KTT have been great and I can’t say enough about how accomodating and easy (and nice) they have been to deal with… I recommend them to anyone looking to do a DIY with Talalay. They are also very knowledgable and able to provide good advice with respect to layering (and of course many other mattress/industry topics)… even so, as you have said before and my experience shows, anyone looking to do a DIY setup should have realistic expectations and understand there can be multiple factors to consider- time, effort, shipping/return costs (if applicable)- just to name a few. IMO a ‘sprit of experimentation’ is a prerequisite.

Before I get into the recap, I just wanted to clarify something from the last posts in early February- using the Radium 34 ILD blended as an example (according to the chart you’ve provided in the forum) - some of the top online latex sellers seem to use 30-32 ILD as the ‘range’, not 34 (or 33-35/36, etc.). I think those sellers are getting the latex from Latexco and using the range they list… do you think they list it as 30-32 because that’s what they find the ‘feel’ to be? One would think that if ‘34’ (or 33.x) is the ILD listed by the manufacturer, +/- whatever the tolerance may be, then that’s the accurate range that should be depicted by the seller. Technically speaking, 30-32 is simply not accurate. That said, I know (especially now) that in real life, the difference will be negligible, although I can clearly tell the difference between 32 ILD LI blended and 36 ILD LI blended for example… 36 ILD is (very) noticeably firmer.

Overall, I’m very, very surprised at how ‘soft’ the configurations I’ve tried have felt compared to Latex Bliss and other mattresses I’ve tried in stores. I got the 12" cover from Sleepez (made to fit 11" of latex but can take an extra inch, possibly two)- as a reminder I’m 6ft, ~230 lbs, mostly side sleeper, mid 30’s. My base layer has remained 6" of 36 ILD (two, 3" layers)- here are the configurations I’ve slept on, in sequence (all listed from top layer down) and comments:

1. way too soft… went right through the top layers and was out of alignment
   1" 14 ILD
   2" 19 ILD
   2" 28 ILD
   6" 36 ILD

2. not so thick that i was way out of alignment but just felt like i went through the 19 too much and didn’t have quite enough support
   2" 19 ILD
   2" 28 ILD
   6" 36 ILD

3. decided anything in the teens was too soft for me so swapped the 1" 14 ILD and 2" 19 ILD for one piece of 3" 24 ILD… even the below seemed just too soft with respect to the top layer and I was out of alignment/sank in too much
   3" 24 ILD
   2" 28 ILD
   6" 36 ILD

4. tried taking out the 2" 28 ILD and just sleeping on the 3" 24 ILD over the 36… the 24 just didn’t feel supportive enough and I bottomed-out
   3" 24 ILD
   6" 36 ILD

5. tried just the 2" 28 ILD over the 36 and this wasn’t too bad in terms of alignment, but just didn’t have the depth/pressure relief (not surprisingly)
   2" 28 ILD
   6" 36 ILD

6. swapped the 3" 24 ILD for 3" 32 ILD and used the 2" 28 ILD as the top layer… i can live with this for now but still seem to sink in too much, so think 3" 36 ILD would have been better with an additional inch of soft on top of the 28 if necessary
   2" 28 ILD
   3" 32 ILD
   6" 36 ILD

I also tried a ‘dominating layer’ setup with 3" 24 ILD under the 2" 28 ILD… no go, I just crushed the 24 ILD and was out of alignment. Other than that, I slept on any configuration for a least a few nights.

KTT confirmed that the ‘Active Fusion’ latex in the Bliss models is ‘stiffer’ than regular blended Talalay… it seems that, combined with the way the fire barrier is ‘strapped down’/around the latex and the overall mattress construction contributes to the firmer feeling of the PLB mattresses. Going by specs alone, the PLB Beautiful would appear way too soft for me… it wasn’t… I didn’t sink in the way I did with my own configurations and was well supported. The PLB Nature was obviously even firmer/more supportive and felt much different than the 2" 19 ILD, 2" 28 ILD, 6" 36 ILD configuration I tried in my own bed. I’m just about positive sleeping on the Nature (without a topper) would lead to soreness/pressure on my side and hip and I’ve read quite a few reviews online where people who purchased the mattress had that issue.

I’m OK with my current configuration for now- and may even try putting the 2" 28 under the 3" 32- however, at this point my preference (for a variety of reasons) is probably to have a ‘finished’ mattress, so any more money in my pocket would likely go towards that down the road. KTT was great about exchanges (I’m within driving distance) but I know enough now that even requesting any further exchanges isn’t necessary.

Even though it doesn’t look like I’ll be keeping my current setup long term, to me there was enough value in the experimenting to justfiy the financial expenditure. Also, KTT is so reasonably priced and accomodating that I was able to manage the financial side within ‘reasonable enough’ limits. I’m certainly not a good example of ‘value’ overall, but to me the experimenting was fun and I decided to kind of serve as a guinea pig… so hopefully a few people on MU who come across these posts will find the information helpful (and hopefully it won’t scare them away :)).

I’ll likely end up going with CSS in CT… I now understand why Dave sticks to the constructions he’s been selling for many years. He’s also carrying the latest PLB mattresses now, so that will help at least for comparison. I probably would have been happy going with his ‘Ultra Performance’ initially, but guess I just needed to go through this process… it’s definitely been a learning experience.

Thanks,
Manimal

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with so many different combinations … I appreciate it :). I think your comments will certainly give a good sense to many other forum members of the many variables that can come into play. Given your weight range I’m not surprised that ILD ranges in the teens are too soft for you and even the low 20’s would be too soft for many people in your weight range (although the softer ranges could be fine for some people as a “feel” layer … especially in thin layers).

Before I get into the recap, I just wanted to clarify something from the last posts in early February- using the Radium 34 ILD blended as an example (according to the chart you’ve provided in the forum) - some of the top online latex sellers seem to use 30-32 ILD as the ‘range’, not 34 (or 33-35/36, etc.). I think those sellers are getting the latex from Latexco and using the range they list… do you think they list it as 30-32 because that’s what they find the ‘feel’ to be? One would think that if ‘34’ (or 33.x) is the ILD listed by the manufacturer, +/- whatever the tolerance may be, then that’s the accurate range that should be depicted by the seller. Technically speaking, 30-32 is simply not accurate. That said, I know (especially now) that in real life, the difference will be negligible, although I can clearly tell the difference between 32 ILD LI blended and 36 ILD LI blended for example… 36 ILD is (very) noticeably firmer.

Each manufacturer would be the most reliable source of information about this or where their specs come from or why they list them the way they do but many manufacturers change suppliers from time to time or may use one supplier for their natural and another for their blended so the specs they list may just be “approximations” that are “close enough” to keep things simple enough for 99% of their customers. Most of their customers wouldn’t know how a combination of certain ILD’s would translate into their own real life experience anyway so they would even be fine with “word” approximations such as soft/medium/firm. To make matters even more confusing, even Radium and Latex International/Talalay Global ILD ratings aren’t exact matches to each other in terms of how the same ILD feels either so it would overwhelm most customers if they listed every ILD of every type and blend of latex they may carry over time and then in addition to this tried to explain how the same ILD may be different firmnesses between different manufacturers or blends of latex. Experience tends to quickly show manufacturers that “too much” information or specificity can cost sales because it overwhelms most people. Most people don’t notice much if any difference between ILD variations that are about 3 or less unless they are more sensitive than most and even this is inside the tolerance range of most firmness ratings.

KTT confirmed that the ‘Active Fusion’ latex in the Bliss models is ‘stiffer’ than regular blended Talalay… it seems that, combined with the way the fire barrier is ‘strapped down’/around the latex and the overall mattress construction contributes to the firmer feeling of the PLB mattresses.

As you mentioned the PLB fire barriers are quite thick and fit around the layers like a fitted sheet )with the thick part on top) and would have a significant effect on how the latex underneath it feels. Without the thick fire barrier (and I know some people that have just removed it) the latex would feel softer and more contouring and more like their ILD ratings.

It’s especially great that you approached your experimentation with a “spirit of adventure” and it’s clear that you certainly learned a great deal about what works best for you in the process! Many consumers believe that mattress theory and design is more simple than it really is (and for some that seem to be able to sleep on anything it may be) but the reality is that even after years of experience the learning curve about how different people interact with different combinations of layers and components and covers and the different construction techniques that can be used never really ends.

Thanks again for taking the time to share some great information

Phoenix

[Manimal]

My pleasure Did some further testing and have a little more info to add-

Even 2" 28 ILD on top of the 3" 32 and 6" 36 resulted in some alignment issues so I realized that just the 3" 32 ILD on top of the 6" 36 should suffice for the time being… and while I was taking out the 2" 28 I tried two other configurations (not exactly a relaxing evening):

As suspected, the “dominant layer” setup didn’t really change anything and even though the 32 ILD had a slightly firmer surface feel, the overall setup was still extremely soft as I just went through the 28 and wasn’t properly supported.
3" 32 ILD
2" 28 ILD
6" 36 ILD

This one I thought very well could be the answer to my situation, so I was very surprised at how having the 2" 28 ILD as the bottom/base layer made the setup one of the softest I had tried… I never thought it would affect the overall feel as much as it did. Even with the 32 ILD as the top layer, it just wasn’t supportive enough.
3" 32 ILD
6" 36 ILD
2" 28 ILD

So I ended up with the basic 3" 32 ILD on top of the 6" 36 ILD… it doesn’t quite have the “depth” or overall feel I’m looking for, but so far it seems to be supportive enough without being too firm. IMO, anyone researching latex/latex mattresses shouldn’t get carried away with assessing ILD numbers “on paper” (as you’ve said many times, nothing trumps personal experience)… for example, I wouldn’t have thought 3" 32 ILD would be “soft” enough as a comfort layer… but it’s plenty soft in and of itself and I would think a lot of people with various builds/weights/sleeping preferences would be happy having it as a top layer in a DIY mattress with proper support below below it (perhaps especially if they didn’t actually know the ILD was 32). That said, having 32 ILD as the top layer on a PLB mattress with (firmer) support layers underneath and a thick fire barrier strapped over would feel extremely firm and completely different than in a DIY mattress with a stretch-knit cover (like the Sleep EZ).

Which reminds me- the Sleep EZ poly/rayon/cotton encasement (cover) is extremely nice. It’s well-constructed with a sturdy zipper (it’s sure held up to the abuse I’ve been putting it through)… the sides are the same material/hand feel as the top but have some structure and do not stretch like the top (this is a good thing). The top is very stretchy (and soft) and really allows you to feel the latex underneath. I wish PLB would use something like that- with the fire-retardant rayon fibers stitched into the cover- instead of having a separate, thicker barrier underneath the cover material. I got the “12,000” model which is supposed to be for 11" of latex… it can easily fit 12" and potentially 13" so if I end up continuing with my project, will shoot for a full 12" of latex… overall, in my experience it’s best to have the cover fit as tightly as possible (within reason of course). The cover also seems to be very breathable and “moisture-wicking”.

I’m debating on where to go from here- if I continued (and hopefully finished if that’s the case) the DIY project, I could talk to KTT one more time and try this setup:

2" 28 ILD (possibly adding 1 more inch of 19 or 24 for a total of 3" on top)
3" 36 ILD
3" 36 ILD
3" 40 ILD

That should have the support I require with some softness on the top, with enough depth and support… it seems the main issue I’ve had is with the layers underneath the top 2-3" not being supportive enough (for me), so 2" 28 on top of 3" 32 acts like 5" of a very soft comfort layer. I think 6" 36 (with 3" 40 as the base) underneath the softer top layer would be supportive enough and still have a little “give”, but prevent the mattress from “hammocking” under my weight.

I wrote the above last week and wasn’t able to finish/post… at this point, I do like the thought of having a finished mattress and was able to visit CSS over the weekend. They’re carrying the current PLB mattresses now (Pamper, Nature, Beautiful) so I was able to check them out again (last time was another place around a year ago) and was again, very surprised.

I knew from your updates in the forum that PLB had updated the specs on the top 3 inches of the beautiful to 15 ILD, from 21 ILD. It felt the way I think it probably should have initially, with the upper layers very plush… the one I felt about a year ago must have been 21 ILD because it had a much firmer surface feel/support… it was night and day.

The Beautiful would be very risky for me, given the softness of the “new” version, so I tried the Nature and was surprised at how good it felt… it wasn’t nearly as “hard” on top (as the one I tried previously) and seemed to have just the right amount of softness/plushness, but not to the point where I sank through and felt like I wasn’t supported. Sara actually said the top 2 inches was now 15 ILD… I hadn’t read that anywhere and was wondering if you came across any updates to the Nature along with the Beautiful (?)

The Nature at CSS was the best-feeling latex mattress I’ve tried… and that’s saying a lot… but I’m extremely concerned about the apparent lack of consistency with the PLB mattresses. I’ve come across numerous reviews/feedback about the Nature feeling great in the store, then feeling like a board after some unfortunate soul spent ~3k and received the mattress (and it doesn’t “soften up”). One online review was as recent as the end of 2014. I almost wonder if some of the floor models have the FR barrier removed (?) That shouldn’t be the case- they should be shown in the same form they’ll be used- but regardless, it seems like the specs and/or feel have been all over the place, without a lot of available information from PLB to provide clarification for consumers.

Based on the model at CSS, I’m heavily leaning towards the Nature (if you couldn’t tell). Although I don’t exactly relish the thought of spending money on a new mattress, I really like the thought of being comfortable and ending this search. However, I feel purchasing a PLB mattress is a significant risk- if the mattress ends up feeling much firmer than expected, they will most likely label it as a “comfort” issue and not offer further assistance- not to mention the potential hassle for me, even if they were willing to do an exchange. Also, after speaking with LI/PLB a few times in the past, I’m skeptical about their overall customer service and accuracy of information… again, really the overall consistency with respect to LI/PLB.

If I could confirm to a reasonable certainty that the Nature would feel “right”, then it’s the one for me. The DIY project was worthwhile despite spending some money, but at least right now I don’t think I really want to put more time/money into it. Overall, I’m just feeling a bit “gun shy” at present… any thoughts/ confirmations you’re able to provide on the points mentioned above would be much appreciated, as always.

Thanks,
Manimal

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

Thanks for taking the time to add all the additional comments about your testing and experience … I appreciate all of them once again

This one I thought very well could be the answer to my situation, so I was very surprised at how having the 2" 28 ILD as the bottom/base layer made the setup one of the softest I had tried… I never thought it would affect the overall feel as much as it did. Even with the 32 ILD as the top layer, it just wasn’t supportive enough.
3" 32 ILD
6" 36 ILD
2" 28 ILD

You’re certainly not the first to notice the difference that a softer layer on the bottom of a mattress can make a significant difference in how it feels. Most people that have tried one of the PLB mattresses on their latex foundation (which has 4" of 19 ILD latex) will tell you that the difference is very noticeable. Another forum member jkozlow3 also did some experimentation with softer layers on the bottom and in their case this was their strong preference no matter what the layering was on top of it (see their comments in point #6 here). The deeper layers will make much less difference in terms of PPP if they are similar or firmer than the layers above them but if they are softer than the layers above them then the upper layers will still “bend in” to the softer layers and the difference will be much more noticeable. This is what I refer to as “sinking down” (with the softer bottom layer) vs “sinking in” (with softer upper layers). For some people this would be an improvement in terms of PPP and for others like yourself this may be detrimental.

So I ended up with the basic 3" 32 ILD on top of the 6" 36 ILD… it doesn’t quite have the “depth” or overall feel I’m looking for, but so far it seems to be supportive enough without being too firm. IMO, anyone researching latex/latex mattresses shouldn’t get carried away with assessing ILD numbers “on paper” (as you’ve said many times, nothing trumps personal experience)… for example, I wouldn’t have thought 3" 32 ILD would be “soft” enough as a comfort layer… but it’s plenty soft in and of itself and I would think a lot of people with various builds/weights/sleeping preferences would be happy having it as a top layer in a DIY mattress with proper support below below it (perhaps especially if they didn’t actually know the ILD was 32). That said, having 32 ILD as the top layer on a PLB mattress with (firmer) support layers underneath and a thick fire barrier strapped over would feel extremely firm and completely different than in a DIY mattress with a stretch-knit cover (like the Sleep EZ).

I would completely agree with your comments here and there are even some people that do very well with comfort layers that are even firmer than 32 ILD. With a 3" comfort layer and then a firmer support core underneath it and given your experience with additional 2" layers you are probably at the point where 1" layers either over or under the top layer or differences in the cover would be the way to do any additional fine tuning that would change the “feel” with less effect on the supportive properties of the mattress. Changing layer thickness can have just as significant of an effect as changing layer softness to achieve the final outcome you are looking for.

Which reminds me- the Sleep EZ poly/rayon/cotton encasement (cover) is extremely nice. It’s well-constructed with a sturdy zipper (it’s sure held up to the abuse I’ve been putting it through)… the sides are the same material/hand feel as the top but have some structure and do not stretch like the top (this is a good thing). The top is very stretchy (and soft) and really allows you to feel the latex underneath. I wish PLB would use something like that- with the fire-retardant rayon fibers stitched into the cover- instead of having a separate, thicker barrier underneath the cover material. I got the “12,000” model which is supposed to be for 11" of latex… it can easily fit 12" and potentially 13" so if I end up continuing with my project, will shoot for a full 12" of latex… overall, in my experience it’s best to have the cover fit as tightly as possible (within reason of course). The cover also seems to be very breathable and “moisture-wicking”.

Thanks for the feedback about their cover as well. Your comments are similar to other forum members that have also purchased it and liked it a great deal as well.

I’m debating on where to go from here- if I continued (and hopefully finished if that’s the case) the DIY project, I could talk to KTT one more time and try this setup:

2" 28 ILD (possibly adding 1 more inch of 19 or 24 for a total of 3" on top)
3" 36 ILD
3" 36 ILD
3" 40 ILD

That should have the support I require with some softness on the top, with enough depth and support… it seems the main issue I’ve had is with the layers underneath the top 2-3" not being supportive enough (for me), so 2" 28 on top of 3" 32 acts like 5" of a very soft comfort layer. I think 6" 36 (with 3" 40 as the base) underneath the softer top layer would be supportive enough and still have a little “give”, but prevent the mattress from “hammocking” under my weight.

My general approach would be to work from the “bottom up” so if the 3" of 32 ILD on top of 6" of 36 ILD is “very close” then it may just be a matter of adding another inch on top for some of the additional softness, “feel” and the “depth” of secondary support that you are looking for. If you do decide to go in this direction and all you need is a thicker mattress then once you have the final configuration you are looking for then adding any extra height you need may just be a matter of adding the firmest possible layer on the bottom of your mattress as a “filler” which would probably have the least effect on the mattress overall.

Having 2" of 28 on top of the 6" of 36 ILD could feel a little firmer on the surface (because you are closer to the firmer 36 ILD layer) but the additional 3" of 40 ILD latex on the bottom may be enough to compensate for this to some degree in the other direction (softer) with the extra thickness of the mattress.

You are really at the point though where there are so many moving variables and subjective perceptions involved with each different combination that would be unique to each person that “theory” would be ineffective and your own experience will really be the most reliable way to know. It’s “somewhat” simple to predict the effect of a single minor change to the design of a mattress (say one increment of firmness for a single layer or an additional inch of material) but it’s more difficult to predict the effect of two or more changes or larger changes because of how all the layers can interact differently with with each other and with different body types and sleeping positions.

I wrote the above last week and wasn’t able to finish/post… at this point, I do like the thought of having a finished mattress and was able to visit CSS over the weekend. They’re carrying the current PLB mattresses now (Pamper, Nature, Beautiful) so I was able to check them out again (last time was another place around a year ago) and was again, very surprised.

I knew from your updates in the forum that PLB had updated the specs on the top 3 inches of the beautiful to 15 ILD, from 21 ILD. It felt the way I think it probably should have initially, with the upper layers very plush… the one I felt about a year ago must have been 21 ILD because it had a much firmer surface feel/support… it was night and day.

The Beautiful would be very risky for me, given the softness of the “new” version, so I tried the Nature and was surprised at how good it felt… it wasn’t nearly as “hard” on top (as the one I tried previously) and seemed to have just the right amount of softness/plushness, but not to the point where I sank through and felt like I wasn’t supported. Sara actually said the top 2 inches was now 15 ILD… I hadn’t read that anywhere and was wondering if you came across any updates to the Nature along with the Beautiful (?)

The specs that are listed in post #2 here came from a reliable source and were the 2014 specs. As far as I know they have always been correct since they introduced the new lineup (although there has always been some speculation about the ILD of the layers and some of the specs that were listed around the web were probably incorrect).

It’s possible that they changed the specs for 2015 but I don’t have any information about this one way or the other.

The Nature at CSS was the best-feeling latex mattress I’ve tried… and that’s saying a lot… but I’m extremely concerned about the apparent lack of consistency with the PLB mattresses. I’ve come across numerous reviews/feedback about the Nature feeling great in the store, then feeling like a board after some unfortunate soul spent ~3k and received the mattress (and it doesn’t “soften up”). One online review was as recent as the end of 2014. I almost wonder if some of the floor models have the FR barrier removed (?) That shouldn’t be the case- they should be shown in the same form they’ll be used- but regardless, it seems like the specs and/or feel have been all over the place, without a lot of available information from PLB to provide clarification for consumers.

Based on the model at CSS, I’m heavily leaning towards the Nature (if you couldn’t tell). Although I don’t exactly relish the thought of spending money on a new mattress, I really like the thought of being comfortable and ending this search. However, I feel purchasing a PLB mattress is a significant risk- if the mattress ends up feeling much firmer than expected, they will most likely label it as a “comfort” issue and not offer further assistance- not to mention the potential hassle for me, even if they were willing to do an exchange. Also, after speaking with LI/PLB a few times in the past, I’m skeptical about their overall customer service and accuracy of information… again, really the overall consistency with respect to LI/PLB.

If I could confirm to a reasonable certainty that the Nature would feel “right”, then it’s the one for me. The DIY project was worthwhile despite spending some money, but at least right now I don’t think I really want to put more time/money into it. Overall, I’m just feeling a bit “gun shy” at present… any thoughts/ confirmations you’re able to provide on the points mentioned above would be much appreciated, as always.

I have certainly heard reports about inconsistency in firmness and while I know that some of them are probably “true” … I also tend to take these types of more isolated reports with a grain of salt because you will find the same complaint that “my mattress isn’t the same as the one I tried” for almost every mattress on the market.

There are many reasons that could cause this but the biggest one is that human memory for softness, firmness, and “feel” is also very short term, subjective, and relative to more recent experience and is often unreliable. A mattress that feels different to what someone “remembers” a mattress feels like may end up being more similar than they remember (or vice versa) if they were to compare them side by side in “real time”. Most people have had the experience of testing mattresses say in the morning and then testing mattresses somewhere else and then going back to test the first mattresses again later in the day and finding they feel different from what they remember because their frame of reference has changed with the other mattresses they have tested. This in combination with the fact that many consumers don’t spend enough time on a mattress to really be able to predict what it will feel like when they actually sleep on it once they have fully relaxed (like they would be when they are going to sleep at night) leads to most of the “inconsistent” reviews that you will see.

Some of the other reasons for these types of reports (outside of the mattress actually being different which is also possible) would include that most testing in a showroom is on a bare mattress and a mattress protector, mattress pad, or even sheets can make a difference in how a mattress feels at home compared to how it felt in a showroom.

The foundation under a mattress can also make a significant difference and if someone is using a foundation that is different from the one in the store this can make a significant difference as well. The PLB foundation itself could also be part of the issue and there are many retailers that won’t sell it because of the wide spacing between the slats that could also cause issues either initially or over a relatively short period of time.

None of this is not to discount the fact that there could be some “real” consistency issues from time to time but these would be less common than the other reasons for these types of reviews and reports.

Phoenix

[MattressToGo]

It’s possible that they changed the specs for 2015 but I don’t have any information about this one way or the other.

There were no changes made to the specs at market this year, with the exception of the addition of the new hybrid line.

[Manimal]

Thanks for your comment Jeff (and Phoenix for all of your feedback)- it really seems like there’s “something going on” there… the Nature in the showroom felt very soft at top and the store manager confirmed it was 15 without me asking or provoking the information… I may have just commented on how the feel was softer than the other version I had tried.

At this point, I have a pretty good sense of the differences in feel of various ILD targets/ ranges…the Nature/Beautiful I tried around a year ago were almost without a doubt, 21 ILD for the top layer. The only possible factor I can think of that could (potentially) have such a significant impact on the feel would be the FR barrier… but I have to assume for the time being that the FR barrier was intact on the mattresses I tested this past weekend (leaving the ILD as the culprit).

It could also be possible that this particular retailer has the Nature made according to slightly different specs than the “regular” Nature… they have very close ties to LI/PLB. I’l have to speak to them and see if I can get a final confirmation before making a decision.

Thanks,
Manimal

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

the Nature/Beautiful I tried around a year ago were almost without a doubt, 21 ILD for the top layer.

As far as I know … the Beautiful never had a 21 ILD top layer and it has always been 15 although the fire barrier they use can make a big difference in how firm it feels.

It could also be possible that this particular retailer has the Nature made according to slightly different specs than the “regular” Nature… they have very close ties to LI/PLB. I’l have to speak to them and see if I can get a final confirmation before making a decision.

I would think this is unlikely.

it really seems like there’s “something going on” there

“Something” is certainly going on but it would be impossible to say exactly what it may be outside of the possibilities I mentioned in my last reply.

Phoenix

[Salvl]

I have been searching around at the various mattress and info when i noticed my current bed was sagging. Its gotten extremely unconformable and when laying with my partner we just kind of sink into each other now. when my current bed (memory foam) was new it was great. As i got heavier and the bed got old this feeling has gone away.

After reading all i could from here and sleep like the dead i was hoping to get a latex mattress. and after finding the sleep ez latex 13000 was not far out of my range i was excited.

When i got to the layering config though i was lost. About all i know is i was going for a 12 inch or more bed due to me being over weight. (6’1 340~). I was hoping for a medium firmness since i usually sleep on my back as well as my side from time to time. much as i wish i could just lose it right away I’ve been looking at beds with that in mind.

any help or guideance toward finding what setup would be best would be greatly appreciated

[Salvl]

I have been searching around at the various mattress and info when i noticed my current bed was sagging. Its gotten extremely unconformable and when laying with my partner we just kind of sink into each other now. when my current bed (memory foam) was new it was great. As i got heavier and the bed got old this feeling has gone away.

After reading all i could from here and sleep like the dead i was hoping to get a latex mattress. and after finding the sleep ez latex 13000 was not far out of my range i was excited.

When i got to the layering config though i was lost. About all i know is i was going for a 12 inch or more bed due to me being over weight. (6’1 340~). I was hoping for a medium firmness since i usually sleep on my back as well as my side from time to time. much as i wish i could just lose it right away I’ve been looking at beds with that in mind.

any help or guideance toward finding what setup would be best would be greatly appreciated

[Manimal]

Hello- I will leave your question to Phoenix but you may want to consider creating a new topic/thread so your questions are not overlooked. Among other things, Phoenix would likely suggest you reach out to Sleep EZ directly for advice. Given your height/weight you’ll require firm support underneath the top layer of the mattress, but I’ll leave any further advice to the experts.

[Salvl]

@Manimal

Hello- I will leave your question to Phoenix but you may want to consider creating a new topic/thread so your questions are not overlooked. Among other things, Phoenix would likely suggest you reach out to Sleep EZ directly for advice. Given your height/weight you’ll require firm support underneath the top layer of the mattress, but I’ll leave any further advice to the experts.

thanks for the advise, I just didnt want to spam up the forum with advise threads since this was exactly what i was curious about (latex layers )

[phoenix]

Hi Salvl,

I switched your post to a new topic of its own so that your questions don’t get mixed in with another member’s topic with different questions and your questions are easier for me to keep track of.

[quote]When i got to the layering config though i was lost. About all i know is i was going for a 12 inch or more bed due to me being over weight. (6’1 340~). I was hoping for a medium firmness since i usually sleep on my back as well as my side from time to time. much as i wish i could just lose it right away I’ve been looking at beds with that in mind.

any help or guideance toward finding what setup would be best would be greatly appreciated [/quote]

There is more about the different ways to choose the most suitable mattress (locally and online) that can help you assess and minimize the risks involved in making a choice that isn’t as suitable for you as you hoped for with each of them in post #2 here.

There is also more information and guidelines for those that are in higher weight ranges in post #3 here and the posts it links to that will be helpful. The process would be exactly the same as for anyone else except you will generally need firmer mattresses and more durable materials than those that are in lighter weight ranges.

I also agree with Manimal though that when you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart (which would certainly include SleepEZ) and who can help “talk you through” the specific options they have available based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences than anyone else.

Phoenix

[Salvl]

thank you very much Phoenix. I found those posts very helpful while i was reading through them. They at least they lead to me believe a ?/?/firm/xfirm setup would be a good base. Those top 2 layers are what is sending me for a loop.

I suppose this is apart of the online buying risk. but being able to afford a latex bed is awesome! I can defiantly see how answering these types of questions are so hard with all the variables and personal preference.

[phoenix]

Hi Salvl,

thank you very much Phoenix. I found those posts very helpful while i was reading through them. They at least they lead to me believe a ?/?/firm/xfirm setup would be a good base. Those top 2 layers are what is sending me for a loop.

These types of choices are difficult for most people that haven’t tested a mattress that is very similar in person that they can use as a reference point because firmness and softness can be very subjective and each person can have very different needs and preferences and perceptions depending on their body type and sleeping positions, their unique preferences, any health conditions or personal circumstances that may affect their choice, and the mattresses that they are used to sleeping on. This is why the knowledge and experience of a good online manufacturer/retailer can be one of the most important parts of a successful purchase.

I suppose this is apart of the online buying risk. but being able to afford a latex bed is awesome! I can defiantly see how answering these types of questions are so hard with all the variables and personal preference.

One of the benefits of a component latex mattress with a zip cover such as this is that your first choice doesn’t need to be your “final choice” because you can rearrange layers and also exchange a layer at a minimal cost and as a last resort if nothing else works you can even return the mattress at a very minimal cost as well. While their suggestions are usually well inside the range that would be suitable for “most” people … with good exchange and return policies the risk of an online choice is much less if you are one of the exceptions. I would factor in a layer exchange as part of a reasonable “expectation” in terms of cost and value and then if you are one of the majority that doesn’t need to exchange a layer at all you can treat it as a “bonus”.

Phoenix