Latex Layering Questions

[phoenix]

Hi Manimal,

Thanks for taking the time to add all the additional comments about your testing and experience … I appreciate all of them once again

This one I thought very well could be the answer to my situation, so I was very surprised at how having the 2" 28 ILD as the bottom/base layer made the setup one of the softest I had tried… I never thought it would affect the overall feel as much as it did. Even with the 32 ILD as the top layer, it just wasn’t supportive enough.
3" 32 ILD
6" 36 ILD
2" 28 ILD

You’re certainly not the first to notice the difference that a softer layer on the bottom of a mattress can make a significant difference in how it feels. Most people that have tried one of the PLB mattresses on their latex foundation (which has 4" of 19 ILD latex) will tell you that the difference is very noticeable. Another forum member jkozlow3 also did some experimentation with softer layers on the bottom and in their case this was their strong preference no matter what the layering was on top of it (see their comments in point #6 here). The deeper layers will make much less difference in terms of PPP if they are similar or firmer than the layers above them but if they are softer than the layers above them then the upper layers will still “bend in” to the softer layers and the difference will be much more noticeable. This is what I refer to as “sinking down” (with the softer bottom layer) vs “sinking in” (with softer upper layers). For some people this would be an improvement in terms of PPP and for others like yourself this may be detrimental.

So I ended up with the basic 3" 32 ILD on top of the 6" 36 ILD… it doesn’t quite have the “depth” or overall feel I’m looking for, but so far it seems to be supportive enough without being too firm. IMO, anyone researching latex/latex mattresses shouldn’t get carried away with assessing ILD numbers “on paper” (as you’ve said many times, nothing trumps personal experience)… for example, I wouldn’t have thought 3" 32 ILD would be “soft” enough as a comfort layer… but it’s plenty soft in and of itself and I would think a lot of people with various builds/weights/sleeping preferences would be happy having it as a top layer in a DIY mattress with proper support below below it (perhaps especially if they didn’t actually know the ILD was 32). That said, having 32 ILD as the top layer on a PLB mattress with (firmer) support layers underneath and a thick fire barrier strapped over would feel extremely firm and completely different than in a DIY mattress with a stretch-knit cover (like the Sleep EZ).

I would completely agree with your comments here and there are even some people that do very well with comfort layers that are even firmer than 32 ILD. With a 3" comfort layer and then a firmer support core underneath it and given your experience with additional 2" layers you are probably at the point where 1" layers either over or under the top layer or differences in the cover would be the way to do any additional fine tuning that would change the “feel” with less effect on the supportive properties of the mattress. Changing layer thickness can have just as significant of an effect as changing layer softness to achieve the final outcome you are looking for.

Which reminds me- the Sleep EZ poly/rayon/cotton encasement (cover) is extremely nice. It’s well-constructed with a sturdy zipper (it’s sure held up to the abuse I’ve been putting it through)… the sides are the same material/hand feel as the top but have some structure and do not stretch like the top (this is a good thing). The top is very stretchy (and soft) and really allows you to feel the latex underneath. I wish PLB would use something like that- with the fire-retardant rayon fibers stitched into the cover- instead of having a separate, thicker barrier underneath the cover material. I got the “12,000” model which is supposed to be for 11" of latex… it can easily fit 12" and potentially 13" so if I end up continuing with my project, will shoot for a full 12" of latex… overall, in my experience it’s best to have the cover fit as tightly as possible (within reason of course). The cover also seems to be very breathable and “moisture-wicking”.

Thanks for the feedback about their cover as well. Your comments are similar to other forum members that have also purchased it and liked it a great deal as well.

I’m debating on where to go from here- if I continued (and hopefully finished if that’s the case) the DIY project, I could talk to KTT one more time and try this setup:

2" 28 ILD (possibly adding 1 more inch of 19 or 24 for a total of 3" on top)
3" 36 ILD
3" 36 ILD
3" 40 ILD

That should have the support I require with some softness on the top, with enough depth and support… it seems the main issue I’ve had is with the layers underneath the top 2-3" not being supportive enough (for me), so 2" 28 on top of 3" 32 acts like 5" of a very soft comfort layer. I think 6" 36 (with 3" 40 as the base) underneath the softer top layer would be supportive enough and still have a little “give”, but prevent the mattress from “hammocking” under my weight.

My general approach would be to work from the “bottom up” so if the 3" of 32 ILD on top of 6" of 36 ILD is “very close” then it may just be a matter of adding another inch on top for some of the additional softness, “feel” and the “depth” of secondary support that you are looking for. If you do decide to go in this direction and all you need is a thicker mattress then once you have the final configuration you are looking for then adding any extra height you need may just be a matter of adding the firmest possible layer on the bottom of your mattress as a “filler” which would probably have the least effect on the mattress overall.

Having 2" of 28 on top of the 6" of 36 ILD could feel a little firmer on the surface (because you are closer to the firmer 36 ILD layer) but the additional 3" of 40 ILD latex on the bottom may be enough to compensate for this to some degree in the other direction (softer) with the extra thickness of the mattress.

You are really at the point though where there are so many moving variables and subjective perceptions involved with each different combination that would be unique to each person that “theory” would be ineffective and your own experience will really be the most reliable way to know. It’s “somewhat” simple to predict the effect of a single minor change to the design of a mattress (say one increment of firmness for a single layer or an additional inch of material) but it’s more difficult to predict the effect of two or more changes or larger changes because of how all the layers can interact differently with with each other and with different body types and sleeping positions.

I wrote the above last week and wasn’t able to finish/post… at this point, I do like the thought of having a finished mattress and was able to visit CSS over the weekend. They’re carrying the current PLB mattresses now (Pamper, Nature, Beautiful) so I was able to check them out again (last time was another place around a year ago) and was again, very surprised.

I knew from your updates in the forum that PLB had updated the specs on the top 3 inches of the beautiful to 15 ILD, from 21 ILD. It felt the way I think it probably should have initially, with the upper layers very plush… the one I felt about a year ago must have been 21 ILD because it had a much firmer surface feel/support… it was night and day.

The Beautiful would be very risky for me, given the softness of the “new” version, so I tried the Nature and was surprised at how good it felt… it wasn’t nearly as “hard” on top (as the one I tried previously) and seemed to have just the right amount of softness/plushness, but not to the point where I sank through and felt like I wasn’t supported. Sara actually said the top 2 inches was now 15 ILD… I hadn’t read that anywhere and was wondering if you came across any updates to the Nature along with the Beautiful (?)

The specs that are listed in post #2 here came from a reliable source and were the 2014 specs. As far as I know they have always been correct since they introduced the new lineup (although there has always been some speculation about the ILD of the layers and some of the specs that were listed around the web were probably incorrect).

It’s possible that they changed the specs for 2015 but I don’t have any information about this one way or the other.

The Nature at CSS was the best-feeling latex mattress I’ve tried… and that’s saying a lot… but I’m extremely concerned about the apparent lack of consistency with the PLB mattresses. I’ve come across numerous reviews/feedback about the Nature feeling great in the store, then feeling like a board after some unfortunate soul spent ~3k and received the mattress (and it doesn’t “soften up”). One online review was as recent as the end of 2014. I almost wonder if some of the floor models have the FR barrier removed (?) That shouldn’t be the case- they should be shown in the same form they’ll be used- but regardless, it seems like the specs and/or feel have been all over the place, without a lot of available information from PLB to provide clarification for consumers.

Based on the model at CSS, I’m heavily leaning towards the Nature (if you couldn’t tell). Although I don’t exactly relish the thought of spending money on a new mattress, I really like the thought of being comfortable and ending this search. However, I feel purchasing a PLB mattress is a significant risk- if the mattress ends up feeling much firmer than expected, they will most likely label it as a “comfort” issue and not offer further assistance- not to mention the potential hassle for me, even if they were willing to do an exchange. Also, after speaking with LI/PLB a few times in the past, I’m skeptical about their overall customer service and accuracy of information… again, really the overall consistency with respect to LI/PLB.

If I could confirm to a reasonable certainty that the Nature would feel “right”, then it’s the one for me. The DIY project was worthwhile despite spending some money, but at least right now I don’t think I really want to put more time/money into it. Overall, I’m just feeling a bit “gun shy” at present… any thoughts/ confirmations you’re able to provide on the points mentioned above would be much appreciated, as always.

I have certainly heard reports about inconsistency in firmness and while I know that some of them are probably “true” … I also tend to take these types of more isolated reports with a grain of salt because you will find the same complaint that “my mattress isn’t the same as the one I tried” for almost every mattress on the market.

There are many reasons that could cause this but the biggest one is that human memory for softness, firmness, and “feel” is also very short term, subjective, and relative to more recent experience and is often unreliable. A mattress that feels different to what someone “remembers” a mattress feels like may end up being more similar than they remember (or vice versa) if they were to compare them side by side in “real time”. Most people have had the experience of testing mattresses say in the morning and then testing mattresses somewhere else and then going back to test the first mattresses again later in the day and finding they feel different from what they remember because their frame of reference has changed with the other mattresses they have tested. This in combination with the fact that many consumers don’t spend enough time on a mattress to really be able to predict what it will feel like when they actually sleep on it once they have fully relaxed (like they would be when they are going to sleep at night) leads to most of the “inconsistent” reviews that you will see.

Some of the other reasons for these types of reports (outside of the mattress actually being different which is also possible) would include that most testing in a showroom is on a bare mattress and a mattress protector, mattress pad, or even sheets can make a difference in how a mattress feels at home compared to how it felt in a showroom.

The foundation under a mattress can also make a significant difference and if someone is using a foundation that is different from the one in the store this can make a significant difference as well. The PLB foundation itself could also be part of the issue and there are many retailers that won’t sell it because of the wide spacing between the slats that could also cause issues either initially or over a relatively short period of time.

None of this is not to discount the fact that there could be some “real” consistency issues from time to time but these would be less common than the other reasons for these types of reviews and reports.

Phoenix