Latex layering strategy

Talk To The Experts Sleep EZ
1

Hello, I’m new to the forum. I’m planning to buy a latex mattress. I saw that it’s strongly recommended to try the mattress in person. In my area I was able to find Pure Talalay Bliss mattresses to try. I tried the Pamper, Nutrition, and Beautiful. I liked Pamper better by far: specs below, from a post by Phoenix (thanks Phoenix, if you see this :slight_smile: ), the others were too soft. I did try the Pamper with an additional 2" (I’m assuming soft) topper from Talalay Bliss, but I liked the mattress better without the additional topper. I’m looking for a mattress build that would best match the Pamper mattress. I was originally planning to purchase dunlop latex. I understand dunlop vs talalay mattresses feel different, I guess my question is how noticeable is that difference for most people. I also understand that dunlop mattresses are more of a “range” of ILD. As a core for the mattress, do you think the range of the 44 ILD of your extra firm dunlop latex be more similar to the 40 ILD talalay latex of the Pamper or would I likely be better off with the firm dunlop latex (37-40 ILD)?

**(8") Pamper- AF all latex / NaturalTalalay
2" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 21 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 40 ILD

(12") Beautiful- AF all latex / Natural Talalay
3" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 15 ILD (NOTE: this was previously listed as 21 ILD which means that I was either given incorrect information or it has changed)
3" Natural Talalay Pressure Relief 24 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 36 ILD

(11") Nutrition / Natural Talalay
3" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 28 ILD
2" Natural Talalay Pressure Relief 19 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 36 ILD

About me: I’m primarily a back sleeper and occasional side sleeper (if the mattress is soft I’m more likely to toss and turn and end up on my side… with shoulder pain in the morning). I’m 5’8 and 145lbs.

Thank you!

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Hey abc123,

Welcome to the Mattress Underground :slight_smile: ! Thanks for joining the group and for your question.

This is a good question. A 40 ILD talalay latex support core is generally considered from a firmness standpoint comparable to a 44 ILD dunlop support core, the difference being talalay’s more “uplifting” feeling. That said, whether talalay latex vs dunlop latex, ultimately it would be different for how you feel vs. how someone else feels.

Here is some helpful guidance regarding “feel” from Phoenix’s post others may find helpful as well, Latex Mattress Choices post #4: “There is absolutely no consensus even among the most knowledgeable people in the industry about the “best” material for any person or circumstances but there is consensus that no matter what materials you choose that PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) is the “best” way to choose and that higher quality materials will last longer than lower quality materials. I would personally prefer all latex for example because it has the unique quality of being both soft, supportive, and durable and many other benefits that are important to me but this would only be a benefit for someone who could feel the difference between a latex support core and a polyfoam support core and would benefit from the differences and of course whose budget allowed it or for someone who even likes the “feel” of latex in the first place (which certainly doesn’t include everyone). While this may be my preference … others who are just as knowledgeable would argue strongly for the benefits of a different choice or combination of materials or components and some may not even feel or notice the difference between them.”

Just curious, where did you try the Pure Talalay Bliss mattresses in your area?

Thanks,
Sensei

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Hi abc123, I just wanted to add a quick note - the mattresses you tried in the store have a 4-way stretch cover, so I think it’s important that the mattress you purchase also has a 4-way stretch cover because of the unique feel it provides. Anything you have between yourself and the latex will affect the way you contour into the latex, making for a different feel. With a thicker cover like a 1" cotton & wool cover, you won’t sink into the latex as much which will make for a firmer feel, so the mattress won’t have as much give to it and wouldn’t be as good at pressure relief on your hips and shoulders. If you order a mattress from Sleep EZ you would just order our 9" mattress but mention in the “comments” section at checkout that you want the 4-way stretch cover (which would put the thickness at 8" thick just like the mattress you tried). Regarding the difference between Talalay and Dunlop, it may be best to stick with all Talalay if you tried and liked an all Talalay mattress. Of course, if you order an all Talalay mattress from us and find that you wish you had gotten a Dunlop layer in the mattress build, just call us and we’ll send you a layer exchange within the first 90 days for just $30. But if you tried all Talalay in 2" of 21 ILD over 6" of 40 ILD and found that you liked it, I think that would be the best place for you to start, and then you can adjust from there if needed.

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Thank you for your replies.

Sensei: I tried the pamper mattress at naples mattress (southwest florida). I was unable to find a dunlop mattress to try locally. I tried a memory foam mattress, a spring mattress, and a latex-spring hybrid mattress as well and liked the pamper mattress the best. I felt like I sunk too far into the memory foam mattress (tempur-pedic firm). I found a mattress sold by SleepOnLatex, 6" 44 ILD with a 2" comfort layer (I don’t know the comfort layer’s ILD), this mattress seems most similar to the pamper mattress I was looking at. A lot of reviews I’ve seen for it note that it is too firm. So I might purchase 3" toppers from Sleep Ez. I can purchase a 3" layer of firm and 2" of soft. Then sleep on these layers for a while, and if its too firm I can purchase a 3" medium layer, or if I like the firmness purchase another 3" layer of the firm or extra firm. I feel like I can trial and error better this way.

The Sleep Ez toppers can come with a stretch cotton cover. From what I read on the forum having a good cover can extend the life of the latex. Do you know if this cover would be adequate, or would a thicker cover be better for the latex? Sleep Ez had recommended on this post to stay with a stretch cotton cover, so as long as it doesn’t decrease the life of the latex, I’d like to stick with the stretch cotton cover.

Sleep Ez: Are your stretch cotton covers also okeo-tex certified?

Thank you!

5

The Sleep On Latex mattress you’re describing would be their Standard Firm, which consists of a 44 ILD 6" base with a 2" 30 ILD top layer all of natural Dunlop latex in a cotton and wool cover. I’ve tried it and even being 6’4"/300lbs I found it to be extremely firm in feel but it did provide great support. Clearly more of a sleep on it mattress compared to softer models which you tend to sleep in.

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Sweet Dreams: Thank you for your input. I was worried the sleep on latex mattress would be too firm, especially since Sleep Ez above mentioned a thicker cover can give a firmer feel. And I didn’t realize the comfort layer was medium firm. I was thinking of going for a Sleep Ez 3" firm layer and a Sleep Ez 2" soft layer, then getting a 3" medium layer if this was too firm. I went back and read your previous post though, where you had mentioned you added another medium layer on top of the sleep on latex standard firm, and found that you sunk too far into the combined 4" medium comfort layer. As a back sleeper I only want a 2" comfort layer, or my hips keep sinking and my upper body doesn’t, throwing my alignment off. So maybe it isn’t the best idea to count on using an additional medium layer if the firm layer I order is too firm.

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abc123 - Looks like you’ve got this pretty well thought out! I should point out that even though 4" of 30ILD caused me alignment issues I do weigh twice as much as you. 44ILD is considered extra firm and usually only recommended as a base for those much heavier than you. I’d suggest following the advice you can get directly from Sleep EZ since they’d have the most experience with their products and how they could best suit your specific size and needs. Best of luck!

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I started off the same was as the OP. Tried out a Pure Latex Bliss and thought I liked it. Went with SleepEZ for the adjustability. See my SleepEz 13000 review.

I do think that the 13000 may be to thick for me though as I keep having to replace layers to stop my sinking. I’ve actually been considering an air type multi zone base with a talalay upper to have the adjustability as the upper layer breaks in.

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Hello TD-Max and thanks for the post! I’m sorry to hear about the issue you’ve encountered but we would be happy to get this taken care of for you. Would you mind calling our customer service department at 623-299-9624?

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Should I get a firmer mattress if I add a soft topper?
I am going to purchase a ‘Sleep On Latex’ mattress. For my height (5’9") and weight (165lb) their medium firmness mattress seems to be right. This has a 6" support layer and a 2" comfort layer (Sleep On Latex’s web page does not give ILD’s for mattresses).
I would like a soft topper (20ILD) for added comfort. Their toppers come in 1", 2" and 3" thicknesses.
I am not sure which thickness to get nor do I know if the specification of the mattress should be changed to allow for the topper.

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I guess I’m not one who subscribes to the “add a topper to a new mattress” concept. Why not get the mattress right the first time.

What I can say is that to me a medium (28 ILD +/-) is plenty firm. I can’t sleep on it at 6’ and 215. I can zone a medium into it, but even then I think it needs to be in the second layer.

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gyrosmith - I previously inquired with Sleep On Latex about the ILDs used in the layers of their Standard mattresses and was given the following details:

Below is a breakdown of each layer of our mattresses:
Standard Soft - 24 ILD 6" base with a 2" 20 ILD top layer
Standard Medium - 34 ILD 6" base with a 2" 20 ILD top layer
Standard Firm - 44 ILD 6" base with a 2" 30 ILD top layer

You cannot substitute those configurations. Hope this information is helpful!

  • Bill
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Best advice I can give to anybody starting out with latex is be sure that you can swap out layers. I went with SleepEZ on mine and it served me well. Not sure if I am sold on zoning yet, but if I was doing a zoned setup I’d say Flobeds has the some of the best info and what seems to be the best policy for layer replacement with the Goldilocks guarantee.

Nice tool for Mattress Firmness advice as well.

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I went to a store, and found that I liked the latex mattress I was on. It was right for my partner, but ever-so-slightly too soft for me (and too expensive).

I then found Sleep EZ and used their tool. The specs it came out with were very close to what we tried in store for my GF’s side, and decently firmer on my side.

This was rather re-assuring. We now had in-store & SEZ’s calculator basically saying the same thing.

I almost went with a Sleep EZ mattress, but after searching around a bit more, I found that I can get a potentially better mattress for a few hundred bucks cheaper (still fully split sides/layers) from Arizona Premium…so I went with them (ordered today).

Basically what I’m trying to say here is:
Yeah, the swappable layers is a BIG DEAL like you said.
And…even though I didn’t go with Sleep EZ, I would still recommend that anyone interested in latex goes and tries out their calculator tool. Granted I haven’t received my mattress yet, so I can’t speak to how accurate it is. But based on my in-store experience, I’d say it’s not far off.

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So I apologize, for some reason I don’t have the option to start a new thread so I’m piggy backing on this as it’s somewhat related. Feel free to move me out of this thread, but here’s my question/issue:
I’m coming from an air mattress/bladder setup (like sleep number) bed that had an eggshell memory foam type topper, then pillow top. We basically kept the bed full and as it leaked, we’d just fill it back up. If it got too deflated, you’d sink it and both our backs would start to hurt. I’ve never been a great sleeper and just attributed it to me, and with 3 kids under 6 it’s tough to get much sleep anyways. So I looked for a new mattress as a wife xmas present as we were ready to move on from our 12 year old air bed.

This site was immensely helpful in providing some degree of confidence in the bed purchase, so I pulled the trigger on what was the most common configuration for our setup was (5’5(F) 120lbs, 5’10"(M) 170lbs, both side sleepers, occasionally stomach). This a 10" bed with the following setup:
3" Soft Talalay (22-24 ILD)
3" Medium Dunlop (31 ILD)
3" Firm Dunlop (35 ILD)
cotton mattress protector with 1" wool filling, mattress pad is just a cotton pad, nothing special.
The first night in the bed I slept like I’ve never slept before, I thought it was a bit of a fluke but I continued to get amazing sleep. The bed is softer than our ‘filled up air’, but I didn’t have any lower back pain until about 7 days in and starting wondering if it was a bit too soft. My thinking was, it’s just a hair too soft, and my wife was concerned it was too soft as well so we thought we’d reconfigure.

First was to go from firm->med->soft to med->firm->soft. Wow, that was a dramatic difference in firmness, this is what the full up air bed felt like, it was very firm which was surprising with the top-soft layer still there. We lasted two-nights in this configuration and threw in the towel.

Next up was firm->soft->med, only 1 night in on this but I’ve already thrown in the towel. This is perfectly fine in terms of the firmness level, it felt about right, maybe a touch firm but not uncomfortable. What I missed the most though was the enveloping feeling I got with the firm->med->soft setup. It felt like I was supported but the mattress kind of wrapped around everywhere my body was touching. With the medium on top, it feel like the entire mattress sank with my body, so it was more like a flat sink than it was an enveloping sink if that makes sense. I don’t know how much of that has to do with the dunlop vs. talalay or the medium firmness level, either way I’m going back to that first configuration to see if my body will adapt to it, because that’s my preference.

My hope is that just a bit more time in my preferred setup will allow my body to adapt to it and no more lower back pain due to softness. I wanted to at least try those other options even though it’s only been a short while to see how different they were, and boy were they starkly different! Had the firm middle layer provided that little bit more firmness I was looking for, that would’ve been the end of it but it way overshot.

So here’s my comments/questions:

  1. If you can do layered approaches, it’s dramatic the difference. I was amazed at the type of bed you could configure out of three layers like that, totally different feel in the three options we tried.
  2. What would people recommend to give the firm->med->soft a notch upward in firmness without going to something like firm->firm->soft which I’m confident will not work?
    2a) One option would be to do xfirm (41ILD)->med->soft, but I’m not sure if I’ll feel that xfirm layer or not
    2b) Another consideration is to go to firm->soft (T)-> med (T), so switch out the medium dunlop @31ILD with a med talalay @26-28ILD, that might get me back the enveloping feel with a bit more firmness, but I’m not really sure.

Appreciate any recommendations.
Thanks!

16

Hi again BChaps and thanks for the update! We do not work on commission and, believe it or not, our job (even if you call and speak to a sales rep) really is just to help our customers make the most informed decision possible. I’m very glad to hear we were able to help to that end. We use our 43 years of experience to make very accurate initial recommendations for our customers, and we also do an outstanding job of helping our customers get their mattress dialed in after the purchase, so if you need to make any comfort adjustments feel free to reach out to us and we’ll help you get the mattress dialed in. As I’m sure you’re noticed, Arizona Premium is one of the Mattress Underground’s trusted members and I’m sure you’ll be very pleased with your purchase, and they do an excellent job of helping customers after the sale as well, but if there’s anything else Sleep EZ can do for you please don’t hesitate to ask because we’re always happy to help!

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I liked TD-Max’s comment, ‘Why not get the mattress right the first time.’

It got me to thinking about how I would apply basic engineering principles to getting it right first time. If I’ve understood the excellent papers here on TMU the first thing to get right is spinal alignment.

Does anyone know of any peer reviewed scientific studies of how various mattress constructions affect the spinal alignment of a range of body weights and shapes? I cannot find anything on the Internet.

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Hi William and thanks for reaching out! I am so sorry for the delayed response, but I just can’t tell you how busy last week and this week have been! You’re correct, any change in the order of layers will make a very noticeable difference in the feel of the mattress. Based on the information you’ve provided, my first recommendation would be to try the setup that has been best for you so far and make sure to try that for a full month, because it really can take your body up to a month to forget the “learned behavior” or muscle memory, and you may find that to be your perfect mattress. Aside from that, you could exchange your firm layer to an extra firm layer, but I’m not sure that will make enough of a difference, especially if it’s at the bottom of the mattress. I think the best choice would be your 3rd option which would be to change the layer to medium Talalay over soft Talalay over firm Dunlop, but I would give your “best setup” a full 30 days before making any additional changes.

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Hi Gyrosmith and welcome to the forums! I apologize but I don’t know of any peer reviewed studies like the ones you’ve referenced, you may want to ask the general forum to reach a larger group of people.

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Thanks. A moderator has told me that it is not possible to post in the general forum and I should just pick a thread that looks as if it is in the general area of the information I ma seeking.