We currently have a 5.5 inch split firm/medium Dunlop core with a 3 inch natural talalay soft topper. It’s just about perfect for me, but it is still too firm for my wife, who complains of shoulder pain when sleeping on her side. Would adding another 2 or 3 inches of soft or even very soft latex (I think there are some very low ILD toppers available, although perhaps only in blended Talalay) make her side feel softer, or is the problem more that the medium core is too firm for her? Thanks for any insight.
Hi Pspa123,
From your description it sounds to me like the topper may be a little too firm (which can create pressure points) or a little too soft and thin (which can allow her to “go through” the softer topper and feel more of the firmer layer below it which can also create pressure points). Both the core and the topper will act together and each will have an effect on the other but a medium core would be suitable for many people (depending on body type, sleeping style, preferences, sensitivities, physiology, and other things that can affect comfort or support on a mattress) so I would probably focus on the topper unless there is an obvious reason to look elsewhere.
The first thing I would do is to talk with the manufacturer of your mattress and/or of your topper. They will often have a great deal of knowledge and experience with their specific products and are usually the best source of advice and this also give you the chance to have a more detailed conversation on the phone which is usually much more helpful than email or forum exchanges that rely on written information and “theory at a distance”.
Other than that … the topper guidelines in post #2 here may also be helpful although I would be very careful with adding too much soft latex on top in addition to the 3" you already have because of the risk of alignment issues unless you were confident that you wouldn’t be taking on the risk of exchanging a pressure issue for an alignment issue. In general “less is better” as long as it is thick enough to solve the symptoms you are looking to solve.
To make an educated guess more specific than that would require much more detailed and specific information about both her, the mattress, and the topper and possibly a more detailed phone call with the mattress manufacturer but if I had to guess she either needs a 3" topper with a lower ILD (if the topper itself is too firm) or a little more thickness in addition to what you already have (if the topper is too soft/thin to isolate her from the firmness of the support layer below it when she is on her side).
Phoenix
Thank you for that insight, and I will inquire. To follow up, it is a three inch, all natural Talalay topper from Arizona Premium Mattress which I believe is “soft” and 21 ILD. My wife is only a little above average weight for her height, 5 6, so it seems to me unlikely she would be going “through” the full three inch topper and feeling only the core, but that is an interesting theory that I would not have thought of.
Hi Pspa123,
There are many part of “mattress theory and design” that are counterintuitive. Some of the firmest mattresses on the market have very soft layers of foam on top that are relatively thin to provide a softer surface feel but quickly get firmer as you sink in deeper and begin to interact with the firmer layers below.
I’m not sure how long you’ve had your mattress and topper but some of the suggestions in post #2 here may also be helpful before you consider a topper because the design of your mattress would be suitable for her based on “averages” (although any individual can easily be outside of any averages that would work for other people with a similar body type and sleeping style) and she is probably quite close to the layering that would work well.
In some cases a pillow that is too thin for side sleeping can also contribute to shoulder pressure.
Phoenix
I find no discussion on the forum of featherbeds. Is this a possibility to add a plusher feel to the mattress, instead of going with more latex? I do note that they seem to have high owner satisfaction on a certain review site.
Hi Pspa123,
Featherbeds are very different from latex and each material performs very different functions. There are different types of softness that different people perceive and prefer to different degrees (see post #15 here) and a featherbed would affect the “feel” sense of softness and provide some padding and relief to specific pressure points but it’s nowhere near as supportive as latex or other foam materials which can re-distribute weight along the entire body surface rather than just cushioning pressure points and which will provide better secondary support (the type of support that fills in and helps to support the recessed curves of the spine). So in terms of “feel” or fine tuning or in terms of adding some padding under specific pressure points a featherbed can be great (and of course there are lots of different types and options) but they don’t have the same feel or perform the same function as latex foam or other foam materials.
Perhaps the closest comparison between the two materials … although it still wouldn’t be the same because the latex would still be much more resilient … would be a topper made from shredded latex and filled rather loosely so the latex pieces can shift and flow and be fluffed up more. A featherbed, like any type of padding on top of a mattress, can also reduce the ability of a highly point elastic material like latex or memory foam to contour to the shape of the body so it can reduce “pressure relief softness” that comes from the foam layers even while it can also add some “feel softness”. In other words … they may feel softer in some ways and firmer in other ways at the same time.
So overall they have some slight overlap (they can both be used to differing degrees for pressure point relief) but I would think of featherbeds more as a “feel” item with a secondary benefit of adding some extra padding to pressure points and useful for fine tuning but not as a supportive material and latex (or other foam toppers) as more of an overall pressure relieving item that is more resilient and supportive and re-distributes weight along the entire body surface more effectively and is part of the basic construction of a sleeping system.
A small list of some of the featherbed sources that can provide you with good information about featherbeds or down toppers on their site or with a phone call are listed in post #2 here.
Phoenix
That makes sense and thank you. The problem I am dealing with is that she is convniced that the problem is latex and therefore is not very receptive at present to solutions involving MORE latex.
Hi Pspa123,
I understand … and regardless of whether she is correct (and design is more important than material) it’s sometimes not so easy to change someone’s mind that has come to believe something whether it’s true or not 
Phoenix
To follow up: it has been recommended that the issue may be a combination of the latex is still very tight within the cover, and I need an additional layer. Here is what one source recommended, replacing the 3 inch (allegedly) soft topper within the tight cover with 2 inches of medium talalay, and then putting the current topper on top of that. It makes some sense to me. So my question is where best to get a 2 inch talalay topper and if natural vs blend matters for this usage.
Hi pspa123,
It seems to me that I wasn’t clearly understanding the details of your “sleeping system”. I thought you had a 6" mattress (with 5.5" of latex) and then a separate topper on top of that. From your last description it appears that you don’t have a topper at all but a mattress that has a 5.5" core and a 3" comfort layer all inside the same zip cover. Is that correct?
If that is the case then the tightness of the cove could certainly be playing a role … especially if the cover is quilted and it would be worth testing some of the suggestions in the previous post I linked including unzipping the cover and sleeping on the loose cover over the latex or sleeping directly on the latex with just your protector on top of it to 'test" the theory about the effect of the cover before you spend any additional money on more layers.
Did the suggestion come from the manufacturer of the mattress (who would know more about the tightness of their cover and the specifics of their mattress than other sources)?
If unzipping the cover doesn’t help (and would clarify the role of the cover in what you are feeling) … then additional layers may be worth considering and less latex in the cover with a topper on top would lessen the effect of the cover on how she sinks into the latex.
I would always make sure you have isolated and clarified the underlying cause of any issues to the best of your ability by a process of elimination before making any changes.
Phoenix
Yes sorry if I misspoke, I think of it as a topper but it actually is all zipped up within a single cover so if the term comfort layer is more accurate so be it. The cover, at least when I assembled it, was extremely tight. It was an inch by inch struggle to get it to close. Now the manufacturer said it would loosen up over time, but perhaps it hasn’t loosened so much and that is a factor?
Hi pspa,
Thanks for clarifying because having the 3" layer inside the cover can certainly make a significant difference vs having it as a separate topper.
The first thing I would do (after eliminating the possibility that your mattress protector or other bedding is part of the issue) would be to sleep on the mattress first with the cover unzipped but still over the latex for a few days and then if necessary sleeping directly on the latex itself with just a protector over the latex and the cover off the latex for a few days. This would help clarify the effect of the cover itself.
Most zip covers over latex are designed to fit very tightly because they will stretch somewhat over time and become looser.
Phoenix
I am considering a purchase from Arizona Mattress also and have a concern about mattress covers. It seems like most of their mattresses are made up of a 6 inch core and a 2 inch comfort layer. I believe that recently, they added an option for a 3 inch comfort layer instead of the 2 inch. Do they use the same mattress cover when you order the 3 inch top layer? It seems like I have read on this forum that some have had an issue with the tightness of the mattress cover from this company. Could this be a possibility? One additional inch could make it a tight fit if it is squeezed into the wrong size case and this could affect the feeling of the mattress.
Hi diane37,
They have actually had this option for years. They are a manufacturer so they can make custom builds and not everything they can supply is on their website.
These kinds of questions are probably better asked directly of them so that the answer comes directly from the manufacturer but if you look at the page for replacement mattress covers here you will see they come in 6, 8, 9, and 10" versions.
All zip mattress covers are designed to fit very tightly around the latex so that it doesn’t become loose when the cover stretches. Almost everyone that buys a component layer mattress is surprised when they are putting the mattress together that the cover actually fits because at first it looks like it won’t.
Phoenix
So I am back for one last question here as I STILL have not decided what to do. Another company, a forum member, suggested that rather than replace my current 24 ILD soft layer with a medium and use the soft as a topper, I should instead just add a softer 3 inch 19 ILD blended talalay topper to the current configuration. He didn’t think the other solution would change the feel very much if at all. I expressed concern that at 6’ and 225-230 (my wife is also a tad on the heavy side) we would just sink through this layer, but he assured me this was not the case at all. I do note that this company seems to use different nomenclature for comfort levels – they consider 24 ILD medium while others call it soft. In any event, I would be interested in another opinion, and thank you.
Hi Pspa123,
Welcome to the world of contradictory opinions that can often happen even with “experts” (see post #8 here)
Mattress design and theory is as much an art as it is a science and concepts such as softness and firmness and the “feel” of a mattress are very subjective and vary widely between different people. The effect of different constructions and fine tuning a mattress will also depend on where you are inside the “princess and the pea” and “I can sleep on anything” range. Some people will notice a significant effect with very small changes and others don’t seem to notice much difference at all between very different mattresses. In the end … there are so many unknowns and variables that only your own personal experience will tell you whether a specific suggestion or combination works well for you.
In most cases a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer that makes a mattress would have the most detailed knowledge of all the materials and components in the mattresses they manufacture and the type of changes that have worked will for their customers that are in similar circumstances to you. If I understand you correctly your comfort layer is 21 ILD which would be in the soft range for Talalay latex (you can see the Latex International terminology for their blended Talalay latex here). Of course whether a specific layer “feels” soft or firm or anything in between depends on the body type, sleeping positions, and sensitivities of each person and on how all the specific components and layers of the mattress interact together.
With thicker or softer materials you will sink in more (not through) softer layers and this is particularly true with the heavier parts of the body (such as the pelvis). The goal though is always how evenly you sink in … not how much. There is more about this in post #6 here. If you sink down more with one part of the body relative to the others then you could be out of alignment which is the “risk” of having softer thicker layers in the top layers of the mattress which will separate you more from the firmer support layers below them. They can “allow” the heavier parts to sink down more than the lighter parts but this also depends on the surface area of each part. For example with side sleeping the shoulders are lighter than the hips but they also have a smaller surface area so the weight is more concentrated over a smaller area until they sink in enough for the upper torso to reach the mattress surface at which point the surface area becomes much larger and further sinking in would be “stopped”.
I should also mention that the difference between 21 and 19 ILD is below the limit of detection for most people if the type of latex is the same. With Dunlop then 24 would be more likely to have a “medium” feel for most people because it gets firmer faster with deeper compression than Talalay and the top layers are generally compressed more than the 25% compression where ILD is measured.
Phoenix
My current comfort layer is 22-24 I was told, if that matters. And it’s inside a cover that was incredibly tight so it would not surprise me if it was not still being somewhat compressed.
So the proposed latest configuration would be Dunlop firm/medium core, 3 in talaly 24, 3 blended talalay 19. I didn’t ask about getting only 2 inches of the talalay 19, maybe that would be a compromise between added softness and not putting too much distance between the top latyers and the support core? Or would that not be thick enough considering our weights? It’s all so confusing.
Hi Pspa123,
Have you tried some of the suggestions in the other replies I’ve mentioned … and what was the outcome? I checked back through your previous posts and couldn’t find any feedback about the results.
What did Arizona Premium suggest?
If you are considering adding a topper did you read the topper guidelines in post #8 here (that talks about thickness and ILD)?
Is your wife still uncomfortable with adding more latex?
I’m not sure what else to suggest that hasn’t already been mentioned. Thinner toppers will have less risk of alignment issues but will have less effect on pressure relief. Changing the support core will give you the chance to adjust the firmness of each side separately but it will have less effect than changing the comfort layers (the upper layers are what you feel more) but only she can decide if it’s “enough” for her. The advantage of this is that it wouldn’t affect your side of the mattress (which seems to be working well for you) and you wouldn’t be adding more latex to the mattress (which you mentioned your wife doesn’t want to do). If this wasn’t enough then you would still have the option of adding a topper available to you. In the end only your own personal experience (or you wife’s) can know with any certainty whether a specific combination will work well for you regardless of any “theory”.
Phoenix
Thanks. I did try unzipping the cover but that isn’t the issue. I think the issue may be what you said in your very first response – she needs a little more thickness to isolate her from the core, so that she can sink in more, does that still make sense? So maybe just go with a 2 inch topper with a similar ILD as the current comfort layer, which is somewhere between 21 and 24 I am not quite sure now? After reading your other post it seems notwithstanding what was told to me 19 may be just TOO soft to hold up?
Hi Pspa123,
It would still be helpful to know the specific differences that it made. When you are looking to fine tune a mattress every change can sometimes provide a useful clue.
What type of mattress protector are you using?
Latex is the most durable of all the foam types even in 19 ILD but softer foams are less durable than firmer foams no matter what type they are. If your wife would do best with 19 ILD then I wouldn’t hesitate to use it and you can also flip the topper over and alternate sides which would also extend the durability further and in addition to this a topper is easy to replace if it’s needed without having to replace the entire mattress (all mattresses will tend to soften and break down from the top down). The only issue to consider is that adding another 2" of soft latex would change your side of the mattress as well.
Phoenix