I woke up -way too early- with a lesser version of my aching back + general achiness in ribs/around shoulders. We tried putting the mattress on the floor and there was almost no partner disturbance. In hindsight we should have tried putting the box spring+mattress on the floor too but didn’t.
I actually have no idea if the springs on my box spring are flex but I’ve attached a picture of the inner construction - maybe you can tell me what I’ve got?
Hi COJ,
You can tell how much flex it has by pushing down firmly on the surface with your hands or knee. It looks like you have torsion springs inside which would give it some flex.
Trying it on the floor like you have though is the best way to isolate how much of the motion transfer you were feeling is coming from the box spring through a process of elimination.
Phoenix
Many thanks- I also love you idea I saw in another post of buying an inexpensive convoluted foam type topper to test adding surface softness before commiting to buying a more expensive latex one. The tweaking continues…
Hi COJ,
I’m looking forward to any additional updates you have the chance to share and of course any questions you may have along the way that I can help with 
Phoenix
I was so uncomfortable last night that I was dreaming about the mattress 
Got up an hour early, completely discouraged that I’m experiencing lower back pain that’s actually worse than on the old mattress. I’m baffled at this point because eventhough the 6" core is 40 ILD, I still feel like my hips are sinking/my waist is sunken into the mattress. ??
Today I’m going to buy a convoluted foam topper - hoping the lower back issue is too much firmness
Tonight we put the mattress directly on the floor to see if that makes any difference.
I read that post by needanewmattress:https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/too-many-bad-beds-from-waterbed-to-latex-to-memory-foam-to-airbed-bad-lower-back-pain It also mirrors my issue and it scared the heck out of me.
Hi COJ,
I think that the issue in the post you linked is a topper that is too thick/soft and in your case I would guess that you most likely have the opposite issue which is a comfort layer that is probably too thin over the firmer support core.
I’m looking forward to finding out how your topper changes things.
I would also try and make one change at a time so you can isolate the effect of each change you make.
Phoenix
Last night we tried boxspring+mattress on the floor. Pain was worse & all over. Ended-up using a folded plush blanket to tweak it. Must have fallen asleep past 1am. Helped about 20% with pessure relief. Woke up at 6am and couldn’t take another minute in the bed. Also still can feel husband’s movements (even small ones).
Husband also concurs that bed is not the greatest. He also feels oddly that his pelvis is dipping down while the bed is plenty firm, like the bed is unsupportive in every way. He said it feels like an old motel bed. We also notice that there’s quite a lot of give with direct compression (knee into mattress/sitting on mattress) The bed hates us :ohmy: !!
On the menu tonight: Box spring on floor + we’ve flipped the mattress over to the plain 40 ILD with the 2" 21 ILD on the bottom to try and ferret-out if its a comfort layer/firmness issue.
I’ve also bought a 1.5" convoluted foam topper at Target which has been compressed to the max for packaging and hasen’t fluffed-up at all in the last 24hrs…
On ILD - I readhttps://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/latex-conundrum where you say "Latex International for example has a 19 ILD and a 24 ILD with their blended Talalay and there is nothing in between and their 100% natural Talalay doesn’t have an ILD rating at all (it’s rated for softness and firmness from N1 - N5 and each rating has an ILD range of about 5 ILD or more). Your layer may be from Radium which is probably the closest equivalent they have to 19 ILD."
Our vendor says our mattress is 100% natual latex by Latex Intl. I’m confused about why they would then use the ILD and not the N rating. I even asked them wether it was the blended (usually 30-70) vs all natural as I was trying to compare with Futon d’Or which does use the N rating.
Hi COJ,
The suggestion was to try the mattress directly on the floor without the box spring underneath it at all to see whether the box spring itself was contributing to the issues you are having
Many manufacturers provide an ILD which is in the middle of the ILD range for their 100% natural Talalay so that their customers have a better reference point for the firmness of the layer. If your layers are 100% natural then your comfort layer would be an N2 and your support layer would be an N5.
Phoenix
Well, a week and several mattress moves later I can report that its still not delivering. The best (or least worst) configuration is having the 6" 40 ILD facing up/2" 21 ILD on bottom + a 1.5" zoned convoluted foam topper** (they do not sell the one recommended in Canada, only a cheaper version). This combination provides the best lower back support = no aching back waking me up at 5-6am BUT the pressure points in the shoulders & hips is pretty bad.
**I bought two in the end and tried stacking them for testing & trying to relieve pressure points on 40 ILD side-up. The stacking suprisingly didn’t seem to add that much more plushness.
The worst configuration is with the 2" 21 ILD facing up, with or without convoluted topper(s). That combination = wake up too early with low back pain & pressure points.
Its as if the mattress is too hard AND too soft. Driving us up the wall. I’ve kept our vendor informed and we agreed the next step would be having the mattress picked up and changing the 2" 21 ILD for something harder (32? 36?) ?
Also, and I understand this is not typical at all, even with the mattress on the floor we can feel each others movements very well. Its like a ripple goes through the mattress. Could this be because the mattress if firm and it creates a drum effect? Even with the convoluted topper(s) we feel this though. ?
Last night we hauled these flexible slats in our very small car, at the recommendation of friends who have them and love them:
Deluxe Slats | EQ3 They are a knock-off of the Euro style and the only ones I could find in our area. Hopefully this is a small step towards great success :whistle:
Hi COJ,
Thanks for keeping us up to date with your efforts. It’s good to see that they are working with you to find a better configuration.
I’m not sure what their return or exchange policy is but given your comments in your first post it may also be worth considering a pocket coil/latex hybrid if they have one.
I’m not sure if this is with the box spring underneath it (you mentioned in post #6 earlier in the topic that with the mattress directly on the floor without your box spring there was almost no partner disturbance).
There is also more about motion isolation and latex in post #4 here.
Phoenix
Its been almost 2 months with the mattress and I can report that I have day dreamed about setting the thing on fire :evil: I named the mattress the “embrace of pain” …
The manufacturer exchanged our 2" of 21 ILD for 2" of 32 ILD a few weeks ago - the reasoning was that the lower ILD was allowing us to sink into the firm ILD too much and that having a firmer comfort layer would help. It did not. We are now back to trying different (and often esoteric) combinations of toppers. Last weekend we bought a 2" egg crate memory foam topper (I returned the 3" gel memory foam from Costco which was like wet sand).
I now have either pain in my mid back between shoulder blades that wraps around me to my chest OR if I go plusher I get hip/low back pain. Cannot seem to land in that sweet spot of having my shoulders sink in + lumbar support no matter how small the tweaks.
Last night we tried the mattress alone + egg crate memory foam pointy side facing mattress/smooth face up. Helped mid back but started aching in low back around 2AM.
Have also tried switching pillows.
Also the motion transfer is incredible. If my husband coughs I feel like someone is trying to shake me awake - something I read is practically unheard of with latex.
The only good night’s sleep I have gotten in the last 2 months was a few nights at my brother’s place. The mattress was a pocket coil + euro top from Matelas Dauphin, the Plenitude model. Husband wasen’t as impressed with it though.
I really tried my best with researching and chosing this bed but I have to say this has been nothing short of a catastro 2 monthsphy. We’ve agreed to give the current combination a few nights and if that fails we need to change the bed completely. Question: what is the industry “standard” for returning a mattress/what can we expect?
Hi COJ,
Thanks for the update.
I’m sorry to hear about your experiences and it certainly sounds like your mattress isn’t a very good “match” for you in terms of PPP.
It sounds like it may be a good idea to consider an exchange if that’s an option that they provide. It may be simpler than trying to fine tune the mattress that you have. There isn’t an industry standard return/exchange policy and each retailer or manufacturer sets their own policy (and builds it into the cost of their mattresses). I’m not sure where you purchased your mattress so I don’t know what options you have available to you.
Phoenix
To COJ:
I am near the Montreal area and currently shopping for a latex mattress, and was wondering where, exactly, you had ended up buying your mattress (your Nov. 18 post doesn’t specify).
Thanks.
We bought it (like our previous mattress) at Literie Provinciale. They were a good $1000 cheaper than other places. We’re happy with their willingness to work with us but are still unhappy with latex.
Wish I could have read more about the flip side of the coin such as the ripple/bouncy effect and that for some people the material itself does not support or feel right. I would suggest to really make sure you can test your ILD or be prepared for -in our case- months of discomfort.
Hi COJ,
I would completely agree that it’s always a good idea to make sure you can test a mattress in person to make sure that it’s a good match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). Each person may have their own specific preferences in terms of the material that they prefer and just like all materials … some people love latex and others don’t like it at all.
If you can’t test a mattress in person (or at least a closely comparable mattress) then it’s always a good idea to make sure that you have good options available after a purchase to exchange or return the mattress just in case your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for.
Phoenix
To COJ,
You are not alone. I am having the same problem as you. I think that it is because I am heavier in the hip area than in the shoulder area and since latex responds to weight, How can it keep a spine strait. Unlike you I have 3 x 3 inch layers plus a 3 inch topper, so I have 2 more combinations to test.
I feel your “pain”.
Hi kearneylake,
All materials will respond to weight and will sink in more deeply under the heavier areas of the body than under the lighter areas of the body so this isn’t unique to latex. One of the advantages of latex though is that it has a higher compression modulus than other types of foam (compression modulus is the rate that a material becomes firmer with deeper compression) so it is more “supportive” than other foam materials in a similar firmness level.
Post #2 here and post #4 here also has more information about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to each other and to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress that may be helpful in clarifying how different layering combinations work better for some people and body types than for others in terms of PPP. If your mattress in its current configuration is too soft for you and your hips are sinking down too far then moving a firmer layer up (or exchanging a firmer layer for a softer one) can certainly make a difference in terms of PPP but if you purchased the Spindle mattress that you were mentioning in your previous posts then I would also make sure you talk with them so that they can also make some suggestions or provide some guidance that will be helpful as well.
Phoenix
Thank you, COJ, for mentioning Literie Provinciale. I went to visit them yesterday and will be buying my daughter’s Queen-size mattress from them. A 9" (6" + 3") 100% natural Talalay is $1375 Cdn. You were right, they are several hundred dollars less than most other places. An 8" at Matelas Dauphin was $2200 and 9" at Futon D’Or was $1800. For the same price of about $1300, I was only getting blended Talalay at MFC. Like you, I asked specifically if it was 100% natural Talalay or blended Talalay, to make appropriate comparisons, and was assured it’s not blended.
Phoenix, is there any way we can be sure of the type of latex? Would it be written on the latex itself, where the name of the manufacturer appears? Literie Provinciale appears very reputable, but I just want to make sure about what I am buying. Their prices are so competitive than my husband and I are also considering buying our own King-size mattress from them, to encourage a local shop, rather than buying the 10000 from SleepEZ.
Hi chanpou,
For these types of questions you would be primarily reliant on the reputation and integrity of the manufacturer and the accuracy of the information they provide. Some latex layers will still have the stickers on them that identify which type of latex it is but this depends on where it was cut from the original mold. The 100% natural will have an “N” rating and the blended will have a specific number as an ILD rating.
At one point Literie Laurier was only selling blended Talalay (see post #12 here and the rest of the topic about the Costco topper they were supplying) but they may have changed this since then.
Phoenix
Here’s an update.
I had several conversations with the VP of Literie Provinciale (a family-owned business in operation many many years), and was reassured about the quality of their materials. (Thanks Phoenix for making me knowledgeable about the right questions to ask, as a result of the wealth of information on this site,). They simply have better prices because they are a no friils type of business and have a high volume purchasing power with long-established suppliers. To make a long story short, we did buy our King mattress there and will be picking it up this Friday. I’ll post more information under a “Montreal mattress search” topic to assist others with similar inquiries.