Latex Mattress - San Francisco Bay Area

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Thanks to Phoenix and other members of this community for the excellent information and resources on this website.

Bought a new mattress with my girlfriend in January. Thinking we wanted to go soft, we purchased the Tempur-Pedic Weightless Supreme. It felt fine when we tested it. Both of us had primarily slept on memory foam mattresses in the past and we didn’t find sites like this prior to our purchase. Only really looked at Sleep Like the Dead. To keep the story short…we have both been experiencing excruciating back pain on the bed and realized that Tempur-Pedic is a bad fit for us and we need a firmer mattress.

Enter this website…I have spent the past weekend reviewing posts and Phoenix’s articles, and feel like I understand a lot more. I reviewed your recommended sellers list for the Bay Area and visited a few these two days. We are fairly confident we want an all-latex mattress at this point, but wanted some advice/tips before we finalized our purchase.

We visited the Natural Mattress Store in San Francisco and the Savvy Rest dealer in Berkeley. Our plan is to visit Ergo Sleep Systems and European Sleepworks in Berkeley this weekend.

Natural Mattress Store

Awareness
The Awareness is a layered latex mattress comprised of three 3" layers of both Talalay and Dunlop latex. It is available in extra soft, soft, medium, firm and extra firm. Having a layered latex mattress with a zipper cover allows you to change the firmness in your home by simply repositioning the layers. You may never do this, but because our bodies change over time, it’s great to be able to do so if you wish.

Our proprietary combinations of different densities of latex are designed to provide superior comfort and support in whatever firmness you choose.
• Queen - $2800

Savvy Rest

SAVVY REST
The Serenity is made of three 3" layers of all-natural Dunlop and/or Talalay natural latex, in personalized combinations of Soft, Medium and/or Firm. The sturdy organic cotton casing has organic wool batting quilted inside. The wool fill promotes a cooler, drier environment and more comfortable sleep. The Savvy Rest Organic casing closes with a strong brass zipper.
o Customized firmness for each individual
o Customized on each side for couples (Queen, King, California King only)
o Custom sizes available, any dimension or shape
o Place on rigid, slatted foundation or platform bed
o Total height: 10"

FIRM DUNLOP, FIRM DUNLOP, MEDIUM TALALAY – $2700 (this is currently our top choice)

FIRM DUNLOP, FIRM DUNLOP, MEDIUM DUNLOP – $2400

I understand that purchasing online will necessarily create cost savings (e.g., SleepEZ), but we really want to purchase a bed that we have tried in person, and are willing to pay a premium.

A few questions:

  1. What kind of foundation do we need for these beds? We have a generic West Elm bed frame with wooden slats. The salesperson at Savvy indicates that is adequate and all we need.
  2. Phoenix, are there any other stores you would recommend? For a purchase in-person, are we getting a semi-decent deal? I understand there is a premium to be paid for purchasing from a brick and mortar vs. online.
  3. Are there any questions we should be asking? The ILD measurements I have received have not proven that helpful.

THANKS AGAIN!

2

Hi ChannelGSW,

You are certainly not the only one that prefers to only buy a mattress that you have tried in person … even if it’s significantly more costly than a similar online version. Each person has their own criteria about the parts of their personal value equation that are most important to them and there is certainly no right or wrong in this.

There is more about support systems that are suitable for different types of mattresses in the foundation post here and the posts it links to but if your West Elm bedframe has rigid 1x3 slats (or wider) that are less than 3" apart and there is a center beam with good center support to the floor so there is no sagging in your foundation then it should be fine.

The better options and possibilities I’m aware of are the ones that are listed in the San Francisco list which I believe you’ve seen. While the prices are “fair” compared to mainstream mattresses … the value of a mattress purchase really depends on how each one of your finalists compares to each other or to other mattresses you are willing to consider rather than to an arbitrary price for a mattress that you aren’t considering or that isn’t available in your area.

The most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is how well it matches your needs and preferences in terms of PPP and this is something that your testing will tell you.

The next most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is the quality of the materials inside it and making sure that there are no weak links in the mattress. Like most “all latex” mattresses … both of the choices you are considering use great quality materials and there are no weak links in either mattress.

Other than PPP and quality/durability … the value of a mattress purchase depends on the other parts of your personal value equation that are important to you including cost and how the mattresses you are considering compare to each other. The Savvy Rest has an organic cotton cover quilted with wool and the Awareness doesn’t list the type of cover they use. I’m also assuming that both mattresses you are considering would use the same combination of latex (Savvy Rest uses GOLS certified organic latex and 100% natural Talalay and the Awareness doesn’t list whether their latex is GOLS certified organic or whether the Talalay is blended or 100% natural).

I would want to know the type of cover that is used in the Awareness and the type and blend of the latex layers and whether it is organic. While organic Dunlop latex isn’t functionally any different from 100% natural Dunlop in terms of the amount of natural rubber it uses or how it feels and performs … the certification does add to the cost of the latex and is important to some people for personal reasons.

ILD is a “comfort spec” and not a “quality spec” and isn’t important to know when you are testing a mattress in person because your body will tell you whether a mattress is a good match for you in terms of PPP much more than knowing the ILD of the layers. Most people wouldn’t have the knowledge or experience to know how different combinations of ILD would work for them with different types of latex anyway (and ILD alone isn’t the only spec that will make a difference in how the mattress feels and performs) so for most people, knowing the ILD of the layers would have no practical use and may be more confusing than helpful.

While most of the mattresses at Ergo Sleep Systems are likely to be in higher budget ranges as well … European Sleepworks has an all Talalay latex mattress that is in a lower budget range and there are several other vendors on the list that have all latex options that are in lower budget ranges as well that may also be worth talking to or visiting but you would also need to test these to make sure that the design is also a good match for you in terms of PPP.

With the two mattresses you are currently considering you would be paying more than you would for other similar mattresses that may be available locally but the “deal” you are getting isn’t only about cost and depends on what is important to you and how your finalists compare.

In the end … when you look back on a mattress purchase a decade or more from now … you will remember much more about how well you slept on it and for how long you slept well than you will about relatively small differences in “cost per year” of each mattress although of course I would still consider some of the lower cost latex options that are available to you because the initial cost of a mattress is also an important part of the “value” of a purchase.

Phoenix

3

How far away is Covina Ca. www.flexuscomfort.com has a great sale on mattresses like you describe through April @ far lower price.
Just bought one. Dunlop, Dunlop Talalay. They have a showroom.,

4

Hi KSueSmith,

Covina is almost 400 miles away and close to 6 hours of driving.

Don’t forget that the “value” of a mattress purchase is about much more than just price. Each person may have a different set of criteria that are important parts of their personal value equation and while Flexus is certainly a great choice … there are many other options available to each of the members here that would also make great choices and each person may have a very different sense of what is most important in a mattress purchase.

Phoenix

5

Righto. Didn’t check the map.

Their first choice is for a customized/dual comfort in 3- 3" layers of dunlop & talalay finishing at 10" & that matches the savvy rest I tried & duplicated it in a different cover at www.flexuscomfort.com

Right now they could literally save a grand if they wanted to and that was their PPP.

https://www.flexuscomfort.com/Natural-Comfort.html

6

Thanks to Phoenix and KSue for their valuable input.

Per your advice, we went back to Savvy today and also visited Ergo and European Sleepworks. We visited Savvy last and after trying the two other stores, the Dunlop/Talalay combinations at Savvy did not feel as comfortable/plush as we recalled. I went into Savvy expecting to purchase but the bed was much firmer than either my girlfriend or I recalled.

Our new top choice is the Nordic HDM (Nordic II HDM | Berkeley CA | European Sleep Works). I hadn’t really considered a latex/coil hybrid, but we really liked the feel of the medium/firm Nordic. We also loved the Greensleep Queen at Ergo, but at $4398, it’s out of our price range.

Phoenix, what issues should we be aware of for latex/coil combos? It seems like most manufacturers in this area stick to all latex mattresses. I’ve skimmed through all the “Sleepworks” posts on the forum and the general consensus is that European SW is a reputable manufacturer. It is a bit cheaper than the all latex combos, but we are willing to pay more for comfort. We were genuinely surprised at how much we enjoyed the Nordic. Also where can I learn more about the kinds of coils they use on the Nordic? Micro coils, etc. Or do you have any thoughts on them?

Also wondering if any other members have experiences with these types of combos?

We intend on visiting again tomorrow. Thanks again everyone. Phoenix, you have been an invaluable resource.

7

Hi ChannelGSW,

If they are a good match for you in terms of PPP … there would be no issues at all in terms of durability and microcoils are a very durable component.

Many of the forum members have purchased one of the microcoil mattresses made by Berkeley Ergonomics (which European Sleep Works used to carry before they began making their own similar line … see post #4 here) and have been very happy with them. A forum search on Berkeley Ergonomics (you can just click this) will bring up many more posts and feedback about various pocket coil / microcoil combinations. A forum search on microcoils (you can just click this as well) will also bring up many forum posts that mention them.

As you mentioned … I also think highly of European Sleepworks and the mattresses they make and I have had some very good (and long) conversations with Steven there who along with the rest of the staff there is very knowledgeable and helpful.

Phoenix

8

Thanks. What about the durability of a latex over coil mattress? The warranty is about half of what I’ve seen in the local all latex shops.

9

Hi ChannelGSW,

The weak link of a mattress is usually in the upper comfort layers of a mattress (and not the support components) and both the latex and the microcoils they use are very durable components so durability wouldn’t be an issue.

I also wouldn’t pay much attention to the length of a warranty which is mostly about marketing and has little to nothing to do with the useful life of a mattress (see post #174 here). The quality of the materials is much more important than long warranties that have nothing to do with the useful life of a mattress or how long you will sleep well on it.

If a mattress is defective (which is all a warranty covers) … it will usually show up very early in the life of a mattress. The loss of comfort and/or support isn’t considered to be a manufacturing defect and isn’t covered by a warranty even though it’s the reason that most people would need to replace their mattress.

Phoenix

10

Thanks. We bit the bullet and purchased the Nordic HDM. It’ll arrive in the next few weeks. Thanks again!

11

Hi ChannelGSW,

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I think you asked all the right questions and ended up making a great choice from a manufacturer that I think highly of.

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it.

Phoenix

12

Thanks, Phoenix! What should we do about a support system for the bed? European SW recommended wooden slats that are no greater than 2.5 inches apart. We currently use West Elm wooden slats that are 4 inches apart. And a 2 inch Tempur-Pedic wooden block sits on top of that. We were going to buy IKEA slats, but they don’t make the regular wooden slats in the queen size.

Hrmm…I just called and they said the West Elm slats are fine now because of the strength of the coils at the bottom and the mattress is not all latex (and lighter). Would love to hear your opinion, Phoenix.

13

Hi ChannelGSW,

They would be the “expert” about what would be suitable for their mattress although I would have otherwise thought that a 4" gap would be a little more than I would be comfortable with if there was no foam layer under the springs in the mattress.

Some economical options that you could use to even out the support with slats with wider gaps or add ventilation under a solid platform surface are listed in post #10 here.

Phoenix

14

I am interested in the European Sleep Works Calico mattress with ‘B’ rated firmness with slat foundation. The Calico only comes in two firmness ratings, A soft and B firm. However, their Nordic mattress comes with four firmness ratings A B C D in order of soft to firm. The Calico has been described as a ‘soft’ feeling mattress.

Since I live 800 miles from the store I am having to make a decision at a distance. (Unless I want to spend $600 for a quick trip up there.) So I am wondering if anyone has direct experience laying on these two mattresses. I guess my question is whether the Calico B has sufficient support for spinal alignment of a 200 lb 6 ft man, or if the Nordic C would be better at this?

I’m not concerned with my ‘perceived’ comfort since that seems to be based on recent familiarity with a particular firmness rather than whether it is actually good for my body.

Thanks much . . .
Richard

15

Hi ChannelGSW,

Did you try the Calico HDM mattress as well as the Nordic? I’m curious how the two compared as regards firmness. Which firmness did you order in the Nordic A, B, C, D ?

Thanks,

Richard

16

We tried the Calico as well but thought it was too soft. We got the C firmness.

The mattress arrived yesterday and we experienced pain on it for the first night. We still have the West Elm slats but will be going to the lumber yard soon for additional wood to fill in the gaps. Phoenix, how long is the adjustment period? It’s odd because when we go to hotel beds we don’t have the same soreness issues. Already worried… Thanks!

17

I talked with Patricia, (who was very helpful), at ESW (European Sleep Works) and she reassured me the Calico ‘B’ would provide enough support to a 200# 6’ guy so I quit worrying about it (for the time being). She and I see eye-to-eye that people, like me, who have been sleeping on firm mattresses for many years, often find plush feeling mattresses too soft, even though there is enough support at a deeper level.

So I’m not sure where why you might be experiencing discomfort with the Nordic ‘C’ . . . Too soft? Too Firm? ESW says it takes 40 days to break-in the new mattress.

Hope this helps . . . and thanks for your response. . . . keep us posted . . .

Rich

18

Hi ChannelGSW,

The adjustment period happens at the same time as a new mattress is breaking in and the length of time that each one takes can vary widely based on the person and on the mattress. For some people everything seems “perfect” right away and they never notice either and for others it can take as long as 90 days or so and occasionally even longer. It also depends on the person themselves and how different a new mattress is from the one you are used to sleeping on and how quickly your muscle memory adapts to a new sleeping experience. Both extremes though are less common and the break in and adjustment period would normally be in the range of a “few” weeks (there is no fixed number of days).

Hotel mattresses can also vary widely and for the most part people don’t do as well on hotel mattresses as they do on their own mattress (see here) and this includes the population as a whole not just the people who like the mattress they sleep on at home. They have also gone through their break in period and lost some of their initial stiffness but like anything else each person is different. They are generally a “middle of the road” design that can provide a reasonable quality of sleep for a good percentage of the population and are most often an innerspring design with some some “plush” comfort layers and firmer support systems and many of them also include a mattress pad or a topper which is part of the sleeping system as well.

I wouldn’t pay too much attention to your first few nights experience on any mattress that is brand new so that you give yourself (and the mattress) some time before you assess any “patterns” in your sleeping experience.

Phoenix

19

It has been a few nights on the mattress and it is getting progressively worse. We added additional wooden slats last night (just got wood cut at Home Depot) and our shoulders/backs felt even worse this morning. We have 22 wooden slats, separated by less than a inch now. Sort of at a loss for words. Thought this mattress would be the answer, and we both have back pain. We have not had these issues in the past on our much cheaper IKEA mattresses, hotel mattresses, etc…

The only solution, it appears, is to purchase the foundation/slat system from European SW or wait 30 days and hope it truly “breaks in.” We were told the same thing about our Tempur-Pedic and it never really happened. It is an unpleasant experience to wake up in excruciating pain every morning.

20

Whoa! That sounds bad. I’m trying to understand what’s going on. Is your current slat system the one ESW sells? Are you feeling the slats through the mattress? If so, is it because the mattress is too soft or too firm? Did ESW advise anything? May I ask your aprox height and weight?

Thanks . . .