Latex Mattress - San Francisco Bay Area

Hi ChannelGSW,

Congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

I think you asked all the right questions and ended up making a great choice from a manufacturer that I think highly of.

I’m looking forward to your feedback when you receive it.

Phoenix

Thanks, Phoenix! What should we do about a support system for the bed? European SW recommended wooden slats that are no greater than 2.5 inches apart. We currently use West Elm wooden slats that are 4 inches apart. And a 2 inch Tempur-Pedic wooden block sits on top of that. We were going to buy IKEA slats, but they don’t make the regular wooden slats in the queen size.

Hrmm…I just called and they said the West Elm slats are fine now because of the strength of the coils at the bottom and the mattress is not all latex (and lighter). Would love to hear your opinion, Phoenix.

Hi ChannelGSW,

They would be the “expert” about what would be suitable for their mattress although I would have otherwise thought that a 4" gap would be a little more than I would be comfortable with if there was no foam layer under the springs in the mattress.

Some economical options that you could use to even out the support with slats with wider gaps or add ventilation under a solid platform surface are listed in post #10 here.

Phoenix

I am interested in the European Sleep Works Calico mattress with ‘B’ rated firmness with slat foundation. The Calico only comes in two firmness ratings, A soft and B firm. However, their Nordic mattress comes with four firmness ratings A B C D in order of soft to firm. The Calico has been described as a ‘soft’ feeling mattress.

Since I live 800 miles from the store I am having to make a decision at a distance. (Unless I want to spend $600 for a quick trip up there.) So I am wondering if anyone has direct experience laying on these two mattresses. I guess my question is whether the Calico B has sufficient support for spinal alignment of a 200 lb 6 ft man, or if the Nordic C would be better at this?

I’m not concerned with my ‘perceived’ comfort since that seems to be based on recent familiarity with a particular firmness rather than whether it is actually good for my body.

Thanks much . . .
Richard

Hi ChannelGSW,

Did you try the Calico HDM mattress as well as the Nordic? I’m curious how the two compared as regards firmness. Which firmness did you order in the Nordic A, B, C, D ?

Thanks,

Richard

We tried the Calico as well but thought it was too soft. We got the C firmness.

The mattress arrived yesterday and we experienced pain on it for the first night. We still have the West Elm slats but will be going to the lumber yard soon for additional wood to fill in the gaps. Phoenix, how long is the adjustment period? It’s odd because when we go to hotel beds we don’t have the same soreness issues. Already worried… Thanks!

I talked with Patricia, (who was very helpful), at ESW (European Sleep Works) and she reassured me the Calico ‘B’ would provide enough support to a 200# 6’ guy so I quit worrying about it (for the time being). She and I see eye-to-eye that people, like me, who have been sleeping on firm mattresses for many years, often find plush feeling mattresses too soft, even though there is enough support at a deeper level.

So I’m not sure where why you might be experiencing discomfort with the Nordic ‘C’ . . . Too soft? Too Firm? ESW says it takes 40 days to break-in the new mattress.

Hope this helps . . . and thanks for your response. . . . keep us posted . . .

Rich

Hi ChannelGSW,

The adjustment period happens at the same time as a new mattress is breaking in and the length of time that each one takes can vary widely based on the person and on the mattress. For some people everything seems “perfect” right away and they never notice either and for others it can take as long as 90 days or so and occasionally even longer. It also depends on the person themselves and how different a new mattress is from the one you are used to sleeping on and how quickly your muscle memory adapts to a new sleeping experience. Both extremes though are less common and the break in and adjustment period would normally be in the range of a “few” weeks (there is no fixed number of days).

Hotel mattresses can also vary widely and for the most part people don’t do as well on hotel mattresses as they do on their own mattress (see here) and this includes the population as a whole not just the people who like the mattress they sleep on at home. They have also gone through their break in period and lost some of their initial stiffness but like anything else each person is different. They are generally a “middle of the road” design that can provide a reasonable quality of sleep for a good percentage of the population and are most often an innerspring design with some some “plush” comfort layers and firmer support systems and many of them also include a mattress pad or a topper which is part of the sleeping system as well.

I wouldn’t pay too much attention to your first few nights experience on any mattress that is brand new so that you give yourself (and the mattress) some time before you assess any “patterns” in your sleeping experience.

Phoenix

It has been a few nights on the mattress and it is getting progressively worse. We added additional wooden slats last night (just got wood cut at Home Depot) and our shoulders/backs felt even worse this morning. We have 22 wooden slats, separated by less than a inch now. Sort of at a loss for words. Thought this mattress would be the answer, and we both have back pain. We have not had these issues in the past on our much cheaper IKEA mattresses, hotel mattresses, etc…

The only solution, it appears, is to purchase the foundation/slat system from European SW or wait 30 days and hope it truly “breaks in.” We were told the same thing about our Tempur-Pedic and it never really happened. It is an unpleasant experience to wake up in excruciating pain every morning.

Whoa! That sounds bad. I’m trying to understand what’s going on. Is your current slat system the one ESW sells? Are you feeling the slats through the mattress? If so, is it because the mattress is too soft or too firm? Did ESW advise anything? May I ask your aprox height and weight?

Thanks . . .

Hi ChannelGSW,

Of course I don’t know what may be happening since I can’t feel what you feel on your mattress (and I don’t know if you think it’s too soft or too firm) but if it’s too firm then post #2 here has some suggestions that may be helpful. Post #2 here also has more information about the different “symptoms” that people may experience on a mattress that may also be helpful to assess why your mattress isn’t working as well for you as you hoped.

Since your “symptoms” seem to be getting worse and in that case I don’t know if you are comfortable with waiting for a few weeks before making any changes … the first thing I would suggest is talking to European Sleep Works (in person or on the phone) in much more detail since they are more knowledgeable and have more experience with their mattresses and the options they have available than anyone else and are in the best position to offer some suggestions that may be helpful based on their experience with other customers that have had similar issues to you on your mattress.

Phoenix

Hi ChannelGSW,

Did you ever resolve your Nordic firmness issues? We’re considering a Nordic HDM in B firmness with the flexible slat system. I liked the salesperson at ESW (European Sleep Works) but want to be sure everything will be OK should we end up having issues…

Thanks!

Update:

I received my Calico ‘B’ from European Sleep Works about 3 weeks ago. I’m happy with the purchase and I can easily recommend this mattress and ESW (European Sleep Works).

The only downside is that since I live out of state and live alone, I had to set it up myself. The mattress is very heavy for one person to handle - ESW does recommend two people for delivery and setup. It is a minor inconvenience since I can handle the queen size with some exertion. The King would probably be out of the question.

On the plus side it is a real pleasure to sleep on this mattress. It has felt more firm than I expected, but perfectly comfortable. The firmness was due to the fact it is not broken in yet, and because I was using heavy tightly woven satin sheets. These kinds of woven sheets and mattress covers defeat the purpose of the independent coil springs in the mattress. I replaced the woven sheets with knitted ones and the mattress feels more plush while providing ample support. It is very comfortable.

The slat system for the mattress is also highly effective. I’m finding that even small changes in the position of the slats can make a noticeable difference in the support for hips, torso, etc.

If you have any questions about this type of sleep system, you can rely on the staff at European Sleep Works. Everyone I talked with was very knowledgeable. In particular, Patricia helped me make the right decision about which mattress firmness to purchase without having to travel 900 miles to the store!

Hi Rico613,

Thanks for the detailed update and feedback … I appreciate it!

Your comments about the effect of your sheets may be especially useful to those who read them because this is something that many people don’t think about or realize can have a significant effect on a mattress. I also appreciate your comments about the adjustable slat system.

It sounds like you made a great choice … and congratulations on your new mattress (a little belatedly) :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Unfortunately, we did not resolve our firmness issues. We actually switched to the Nordic A for several weeks because ESW (European Sleep Works) allows comfort exchanges. It was too soft for me, so we returned it.

Based on this forum’s advice, we visited several other retailers in the area. Nest Bedding was our second choice the first time around, so we went there and purchased the PacBamboo (manufactured by Bed in a Box) (BedInABox® Mattresses - Better Sleep Is A Box Away™ | BedInABox). I remembered Phoenix’s advice about the lower density foam on these mattresses, but it was our favorite mattress based on our in-store experiences, so we thought why not?

It has been several weeks on this mattress, and we are both experiencing back/neck pain. At this point, I am not sure what to do…and honestly, about ready to give up.

I have no idea what the problem is? Could it be our slats? We have regular West Elm slats, but then added some additional slats cut from wood at Home Depot. Should we remove those additional slats?

I have gone out of town on several business trips these past few months, and never experienced any type of pain after sleeping on hotel beds. I slept on the Ikea Sultan Fidjetun for years w/o any pain. Appreciate any thoughts and advice, Phoenix.

Hi ChannelGSW,

I’m sorry to hear about your experiences and I can certainly understand that they would be frustrating given that the Tempurpedic Weightless Supreme, Two of the Berkeley Ergonomics mattresses, and now the Bedinabox Pac Bamboo have all caused pain and/or discomfort for you when you slept on them.

I’m not sure of the location of your back pain (assuming upper back?) or any of the specifics and I don’t know your weight or sleeping positions and you didn’t mention whether you believe this mattress is too firm or too soft but it may be worth experimenting with different pillows to see if this makes a difference because replacing a mattress can also make a difference in how much you sink in with different area of the body and change the gap between your mattress and your head and neck and can often need a change in pillow as well.

It’s very unlikely that the issue would be in your slats since they would most likely be rigid and have no flex which and a firm non flexing and evenly supportive support system that doesn’t flex under weight is generally the best choice for a memory foam (or any foam) mattress.

There are no “standardized” hotel beds and different hotels have different types of mattresses (see post #3 here and the posts it links to) so knowing the specifics of any hotel beds or any other mattresses you have slept well on may help identify a pattern in the types of mattresses you tend to do best with. Unfortunately most hotels don’t provide any specific information about the materials that are inside them so using them as a reference point can be difficult. Most hotel beds would have a firmer innerspring core and softer polyfoam comfort layers and they will often have some kind of more “cushy” mattress pad on top of them as well which can change the “feel” of the mattress but this doesn’t really tell you much about the specific hotel mattresses that you slept well on.

The Sultan Fidjetun is described here as being “plush” but it’s also very thin which means that there wouldn’t be much “room” for your hips/pelvis to sink down too far and the “plush” would probably describe the softness of the memory foam not the mattress as a whole because thinner mattresses tend to be firmer when they are compressed.

Looking at the mattresses that didn’t work for you the first one was the Tempurpedic Weightless Supreme. This one resulted in back pain although I don’t know where you were experiencing the pain (lower or upper back). Tempurpedic describes this mattress as “medium soft” and since the most common cause of back pain (or at least lower back pain) is a mattress that is too soft I would guess that this fits in the “too soft for you” category.

The next mattress you purchased was the Berkeley Ergonomics Nordic C. You mentioned “back and shoulder pain” on this one but the specifics also weren’t clear (lower or upper back pain or whether your shoulder pain was from excess pressure from sleeping on your side or in another position) so it’s also difficult to say whether this was too soft in the support layers or whether the comfort layers were too firm or too thick/soft. Again I don’t have enough information about you or the type of pain or discomfort you were feeling to use it as a guideline.

The next mattress you tried was the Berkeley Ergonomics Nordic A but the only thing I know about this was that it was somehow “too soft” for you as well but I don’t know anything about the specific discomfort or symptoms you were experiencing on this mattress.

Finally you are currently sleeping on the Bedinabox PacBamboo Gel and you are experiencing back/neck pain (similar to the Nordic C?) as well. Once again I don’t know enough about the specifics or location of your pain, the sleeping position you experience the pain, or whether it is from excess pressure or from alignment issues.

Overall though … while I don’t have nearly enough information about you, your sleeping positions, the specifics of your symptoms, or other information that I could use as a more specific reference point … the only “pattern” I can see that “may” account for your symptoms on these mattresses that are different from the Ikea Fidjetun or possibly even some of the hotel mattresses you slept on are that the comfort layers may be thicker and/or softer on the mattresses that didn’t work than on the mattresses that did work for you although I am really working blind and this is really just a “wild guess” based on some very limited information.

Phoenix

Thanks again for your expert advice, Phoenix. It has been another month with the mattress and things might be improving. We have to keep the mattress for at least 60 days, so we are still working through our issues. Per your advice, I switched pillows and it eliminated much of the neck and upper back pain I felt. We have kept the same support system as well.

Unfortunately, my girlfriend is still experiencing pain in her lower to mid back, and it is waking her up at night. Because this is more of a back issue, should she also consider switching pillows? She is a back/side sleeper who tosses and turns quite a bit. Also, would placing pillows under her knees help at all?

Hi ChannelGSW,

I’m glad to hear that things are improving and it’s not unusual to see this while you are going through the break in and adjustment period for a new mattress (see post #2 here).

There is more about the more common “symptoms” that people can experience on a mattress and some of the possible causes for them in post #2 here. In very general terms … a different pillow will usually be more effective with upper body symptoms (neck, shoulders, and upper/mid back).

A pillow under the knees for back sleepers, in between the knees for side sleepers, or under the hips/lower abdomen for stomach sleepers can also help maintain the spine and joints in a more neutral position and is well worth trying for those that have lower back issues yes.

Phoenix

In my experience with the ESW (European Sleep Works) slat system is that it make a difference. They have a printed sheet with suggested settings and once I started using that, it became more comfortable. Also one of the sales people there explained that you can increase support on one area by decreasing support in another area, or vice versa. The adjustments from the suggested settings only needs to be minimal - an inch or two will make a noticeable difference. My Calico mattress now provides nice lumbar support and lets my tush sink in a bit. It is almost like laying on a custom molded recliner. I recently stayed at an upscale hotel and found their upscale mattress a bit primitive . . . lol . . .

Hi Rico613,

You certainly aren’t alone in this and it has made a significant difference for some of their other customers as well. Thanks for the feedback :slight_smile:

Phoenix