Latex Mattress: Vendor and Comfort Questions

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

First I’ll preface this as saying thanks for providing this wealth of knowledge to us all. This website is a real gift when it comes to mattress shopping.

So I think I’ve narrowed down my decision to a Talalay Latex mattress. I’ve picked 3 vendors from the Membership list.

Arizona Premium Mattress Co (AKA Mattress.net)
Latex Mattresses On Sale - Latex Mattress Toppers - Phoenix, AZ

The Original Mattress Factory
http://www.originalmattress.com/latex-foam/overview

Brooklyn Bedding (AKA Dreamfoam Bedding)
http://www.brooklynbedding.com/latex-mattresses/10-inch-total-latex-mattress

First, what’s your opinion on the different methods Arizona Premium Mattress and Brooklyn Bedding use to adjust comfort?

Arizona Premium Mattress uses a 22ILD Topper/Comfort Layer and then adjusts the ILD for the Core/Support Layer as needed. Whereas Brooklyn Bedding (basically, in most of their options) uses a 32ILD Core/Support Layer and adjusts the Topper/Comfort Layer as needed.

Basically, is it better to adjust the ILD of the Core or Topper? I thought (from my limited research) that you wanted a firm Core to provide needed support and then you could play with the Topper to obtain your desired comfort level?

Second, The Original Mattress Factory. It says they use Convoluted Talalay Latex as their Topper. How is that different from Blended Talalay?

Also, they put it on both sides of the mattress. One could think that would be a plus due to being able to flip the mattress/possibly obtain a greater mattress life. However, wouldn’t the weight of us sleeping on the mattress + the mattress’s own weight be bad for the Topper layer that ends up on the bottom?

I also noticed that both the Original Matress Factory and Arizona Premium Mattress use around a ~20ILD (17-21 for OMF, 22 for APM) for the Topper. Isn’t that too soft for most (I know that’s preference, but it still seems to be pretty far over on the soft side of the scale)? Although it’s less relevant to Arizona Premium Mattress depending on your answer to if it’s viable to adjust the Core ILD.

Thanks again in advance! :slight_smile:

2

Oh and of course I’m still open to other options. Those are just the choices I had it narrowed down to.

3

I am also looking at same places for a new mattress and am looking forward to responses to this thread

4

Hi suprattmike,

[quote]So I think I’ve narrowed down my decision to a Talalay Latex mattress. I’ve picked 3 vendors from the Membership list.

Arizona Premium Mattress Co (AKA Mattress.net)
Latex Mattresses On Sale - Latex Mattress Toppers - Phoenix, AZ

The Original Mattress Factory
www.originalmattress.com/latex-foam/overview

Brooklyn Bedding (AKA Dreamfoam Bedding)
www.brooklynbedding.com/latex-mattresses...total-latex-mattress

These are all good quality and value options but for the sake of clarity I should mention that The Original Mattress Factory is not a member of this site (you can see the membership list here and the members that sell online are listed here). I would only consider them if you are local to one of their stores and can test the mattress in person because they are not set up to do layer exchanges and don’t ship their mattresses by courier so shipping costs will be higher.

You have certainly eliminated your worst options and have narrowed down your options to final choices between good and good.

I can only speak to the quality and value of a mattress and help the members here identify any weak links in terms of durability and all of these are good value in their price range and have no obvious weak links. This means that you have reached what can be the toughest part of the process which is choosing a mattress between “all good” options where there are no clear “winners” and all the objective, subjective, and intangible factors that are part of every mattress purchase and that are uniquely important to you are the only meaningful basis for a decision. In terms of quality and value there are no “mistakes” left any more :slight_smile:

Post #2 here has more about making final choices when all your remaining options are good ones and the only meaningful differences are the ones that are most important to you.

Some of the things I would consider are your confidence in the suitability of each mattress in terms of PPP and the options you have after a purchase in terms of layer exchanges or a mattress exchange and the costs involved if your choice is less than ideal. I should also mention that the Total Latex Mattress from Brooklyn Bedding and Amazon is the same mattress at the same price but the return and exchange policies are different (Brooklyn Bedding is less costly).

I like them. They can exchange the support core of the mattress on each side which means that you can also affect the “feel” and pressure relief of the upper layers (all the layers work together). The differences between the methods used to adjust comfort and support and the options available are part of each person’s personal value equation and some of the manufacturers here have more options to make changes than others. For some this is a benefit and for some it’s less important. With this mattress you can exchange the firmness of the support core which affects the “feel” and pressure relief as well. I personally like mattresses that provide the ability to make adjustments at a reasonable cost after a purchase.

This will have a more direct effect on the pressure relief of the mattress and a secondary affect on support/alignment.

There is no better or worse … they are just different. Adjusting the comfort layer will have more of an effect on the feel and pressure relief of the mattress while adjusting the deeper support layer will have more of an effect on support/alignment. It depends on the type of adjustment that you may need. Both of them have the ability to choose different support layers prior to the purchase. All the layers of a mattress affect the feel and performance of every other layer but changing the deeper layers has more of an affect on alignment and primary support (the type of support that “stops” the heaver pelvis from sinking in too far) while adjusting the comfort layers will have more of an effect on pressure relief and secondary support (which fills in the recessed gaps in your sleeping profile). Some of the members here sell mattresses where both the comfort and support layers can be re-arranged or exchanged and have more flexibility yet but may also had additional cost.

The convoluted Talalay is blended Talalay. Convoluted foam is like an egg crate foam (see the picture here). Convoluting will change the response curve of the foam making it softer on top where there is less material and then getting firmer faster as you sink into the thicker parts of the hills and then into the part of the layer that isn’t convoluted. In technical terms it increases the compression modulus (the rate at which a foam gets firmer as you sink into it). The shape and depth of the convoluting are used to change the response curve of the material. Convoluted foams have less material (you can make 2 convoluted 2" layers out of a single 3" layer for example) and are less costly and would be less durable than the same ILD layer that is a solid material but the OMF mattresses are also two sided which increased durability. Durability wouldn’t be an issue with any latex mattress because it is the most durable of the foam materials. Any foam (or type of latex) can be convoluted to change the feel and performance of the mattress.

In an apples to apples comparison between two mattresses that use the same materials of the same type and softness/firmness level … a two sided mattress will be more durable than the same one sided mattress because the layer on the bottom has a chance to rest and is compressed more evenly and much less than the layers on the top which take up most of the wear and stress from sleeping on them. The softening of layers under the heavier parts of the body is the biggest reason for loss of comfort and support and this would reduce the softening of the areas under the greatest stress … even in a material as durable as latex. The tradeoff with a two sided mattress is that there is less flexibility of design because you can’s use thicker layers or more sophisticated progressively firm designs because if you have too mush soft foam on the bottom of the mattress (the support layers) you risk alignment issues. With a mattress that has a replaceable top layer you can also replace just a single layer if it softens or breaks down faster than the deeper layers of the mattress without having to replace the entire mattress.

In a single word no (if it was they would certainly have changed their designs over the many years they’ve sold them). The thickness of a layer, the softness of a layer, the quilting of the mattress, and how all of these interact with the layers below all affect the feel and pressure relief of the mattress. With thinner top layers then the firmness of the upper part of the layer below becomes part of the comfort layer. All of this is part of how mattresses are designed in different ways and here are many pathways to the same end result in terms of PPP. A mattress that uses a two inch comfort layer over a softer support core can be very similar to a mattress that uses a 3" comfort layer over a firmer support core for example if the top 3" of the mattress are the comfort layers for a particular person (each person will have a different depth of cradle which is their “critical zone” for pressure relief).

Hope this all helps and when you are down to final choice I would make sure that you compare all the different factors that are part of every mattress purchase which of course includes price, type, quality, and amounts of materials, the options available to make adjustments before and after a purchase and the cost involved, and all the other factors that have “value” and are important to you.

Phoenix

5

Thanks for the advice.

I’ve eliminated The Original Mattress Factory as an option. I really only considered them because they were local, but after having tried their mattress and considering the price it’s not worth it (value wise). They want roughly $2100 (before shipping) for a King and it has less (and cheaper) Latex per side (3in, but split between the two sides so 1 1/2in per side). It’s also glued in there so there’s no replacing the topper layer once it’s worn in. Arizona Premium Mattress and Brooklyn Bedding seem to offer a better product at a lower price (IMO of course).

Arizona Premium Mattress and Brooklyn Bedding offer the same product basically. Both have (roughly) 6in Talalay cores with 3in (APM offers it now) toppers while using the same cover. The only difference is how they adjust comfort (as mentioned above). Also APM offers two (Blended) Talalay mattresses. One that’s a whole core and one where the core is cut in half (for the “Latex Sleep System” model) to allow you to adjust the comfort for each person.

So that leads me to ask, does cutting the core layer in half affect longevity/comfort at all? I would imagine (having never tried it obviously) that you would feel like you’re dipping towards the middle of the bed and sort of hitting a wall (when you roll into the other core). I’d imagine the sensation would feel like there’s a lump or something right where they meet (since they’d be 2 different levels of softness/firmness).

Am I wrong in that assumption? I think it’s a neat idea, but will just go with the whole core options (from one of the two vendors) if the 2 cores thing doesn’t work out so well in reality.

Thanks again. :slight_smile:

6

Hi maconi,

I would be cautious when you are looking only at some of the “parts” of the mattress before thinking they are the same product. If you choose the same layer thickness for the APM then the latex layers would be the same but that is where the similarities end and there are also differences between them.

BB has a cover that is quilted with both wool and a thinner layer of softer polyfoam which will soften the “feel” of the mattress vs having a cover that is quilted with wool alone. One is not “better or worse” but the cover will make a difference in how the mattress feels and performs. In addition to this the Brooklyn Bedding give you a zipper access to a single layer on the top and the base layer is enclosed in its own enclosure while APM has a zip cover that can allow access to all the layers. In addition to this BB allows for comfort exchanges while APM allows for support layer changes. There are also significant differences between 6" + 2" construction and a 6" + 3" construction. Both have options for different firmness levels in the support core when you place your order.

In simple terms … “comfort” is what you feel when you first lie on a mattress and support is what you feel when you wake up in the morning(with or without back pain or discomfort). Different people are more sensitive to one of the other and one is about pressure points and the other is about alignment.

APM has a caution on their site in the description of the Ultra Plush that strongly encourages their out of state customers to choose the Adjustable Ultra plush (with the split core) rather than the Ultra Plush (with the single core) because a single core is too large to ship using courier and would require much more costly motor carrier freight for delivery and any core exchange so this would reduce the value of the exchange option. With a split core you won’t feel the split itself but if you order two different support layers there would be a more subtle transition in the middle because of course the reason for the different firmness levels in the first place is to accommodate two people whose body type and need and preferences are different. The bigger the difference of the firmness levels from side to side the more you will feel the transition … but not the split itself. The top layer evens out the feel of the split so it’s not “sudden”. Even a quilted cover can even out the feel of a split. If the firmness of the two cores is the same then you won’t feel the split in the middle and there is no “sagging”. Brooklyn Bedding can also do split layering in King size.

Talking with them will give you more information about the specific options with each mattress.

Phoenix

7

Thanks for the clarification. I made the mistake of assuming that since they both use Bamboo wool covers that they were the same. I didn’t notice the slight difference between the zipper design differences (APM allows access to both layers whereas BB only allows access to the topper). It’s also good to know about the polyfoam, I wonder why they don’t mention it (their description is the same as APM, just a “quilted bamboo cover with wool”)? Are you certain the Total Latex has it (I know the cheaper, non-all latex one does)?

Having said that, is the zipper design important? It’s obviously mandatory to allow core switching (something needed for the APM comfort method). But what I’m asking is, 10+ years down the road when the mattress is breaking down, would only the topper need replaced or does the topper/core both generally wear equally/both need replaced after so many years?

Also, would the bamboo cover foam on the BB mattress (assuming it does exist on that model) be considered a weak link when it comes to wear (would it wear faster than the rest of the foam/cause any discomfort)? Just asking since it’s part of the cover and the cover isn’t completely removable you’d be stuck with it for the life of the core (although depending on your answers above as to if the core wears at a similar rate I suppose that wouldn’t matter).

Basically, is it common to replace just the top layer in latex mattresses over and over, and possibly the cover (don’t know how long it takes for the cotton/wool/polyfoam in the cover to break down, if ever), or does the core wear fast enough to cause most to just replace the entire mattress at that point?

Something else I just thought of. There is a layer of fabric (cover) between the two layers in the BB mattress. Does this affect the feel of the mattress at all (like if it would create tension/prevent you from fully utilizing the flexibility/support of the core)?

Also, do you know if there is any difference between the foam densities between the two vendors?

Shoutout to MikeM from THIS thread. Lot of useful information in there pertaining to ILD.

This has all been very helpful. Thanks again so much. :slight_smile:

8

Hi Maconi,

I would never take the specs here as “authoritative” and would always check with a manufacturer to make sure any specs are accurate (they are always the best source for specs) but as far as I know they are correct. I think more than anything I wanted to make sure you took into account that sometimes seemingly smaller differences can make a more significant difference in terms of performance or value than may be obvious on the surface and that while the latex is of course the most significant component of the mattress that the other components and the cover can have a significant effect as well. I know it’s quite tempting to believe that two mattresses that have similar foam layers will be the same but there is always more than just the foam even though this can be the basis for rough comparisons.

This is a personal preference. Most mattresses don’t allow core switching at all and it’s not mandatory but it certainly is a benefit. In most cases a mattress will soften and break down from the top down (the top layer is subject to the greatest mechanical forces which break down the material) so replacing the top layer would be the most common layer to exchange but needs and preferences can also change (such as weight gain) so there could also be some good reasons to want to replace the support layers.

The bamboo is the fabric and wouldn’t be the weak link. As long as any polyfoam in a quilted cover (or in the comfort layers as a whole) is in the range of around an inch or so or less I don’t consider it to be a weak link. It’s there to modify the surface feel, is quilted which pre-compresses it and improves durability, and is already soft so any further softening of this layer doesn’t have a significant effect on the feel or performance of the mattress. Once any polyfoam in the comfort layers reaches around 2" or so then I would begin to be cautious but that’s not the case with any of the latex mattresses made by BB.

I think past a certain point most people would replace the entire mattress either because they wanted something different, the cover was wearing out, or for hygienic reasons but latex is very long lasting and the core layers will most likely last for decades. The upper layers are also latex and very durable but generally not as durable as the core so how often and how many times the top layers are replaced would really depend on the person, their circumstances, and how they felt about the mattress overall. You can see a video here of a latex mattress that is 50 years old although i think in real life most people would have replaced it long before them.

Everything has some effect in theory yes but knowing exactly how much the effect would be for any particular person or whether it was even perceptible would depend on knowing exactly how one mattress compared to another that didn’t have exactly the same component in actual side by side comparisons. Deeper layers don’t compress as much or as exactly as the upper comfort layers so any theoretical effect would be less. When you are down to these kind of very small details or specs though it’s better to ask the manufacturer who will know much more about the smaller details of their mattress than I do and since you will need to talk with them anyway about your comfort choice (I don’t recommend ever buying a mattress without a phone conversation with the retailer or manufacturer) it would be a good time to ask the more detailed questions as well.

With latex foam density is not related to quality and is directly related to softness/firmness. This is very different from polyfoam or memory foam where density is the biggest part of the quality and durability of a foam. Both vendors would have a range of latex densities because different types of latex have different densities and every different softness/firmness level or ILD has a different density as well.

Phoenix

9

Alright, so it’s decision time. Here’s the math for each mattress:

[code]
Arizona Premium Mattress
Mattress: $1520
5% Discount: $1445
Shipping: $150
Total: $1595
Return Cost: $90

ILD Considerations
22 - 28 (6ILD Gap)
22 - 32 (10ILD Gap)

Brooklyn Bedding
Mattress: $1900
5% Discount: $1805
Shipping: $0
Total: $1805
Return Cost: $75

ILD Considerations
19 - 28 (9ILD GAP)
19 - 32 (13ILD GAP)[/code]

So APM comes in @ $200 cheaper. Although I hear BB includes free latex pillows with their mattress? That would make up for the difference if so. Anyone know if APM also includes anything, or can confirm/deny if BB does?

One thing I did notice is BB claims Oeko-Tex and CertiPur-US certifications whereas APM doesn’t list anything. I assume APM’s latex is still quality though (otherwise Phoenix wouldn’t have them on the member list). Does anyone have any info on that (who makes their latex, if it’s certified and the website just doesn’t list it, etc.)?

Also if APM does a 60/40 or 70/30 Blend?

I also noticed that APM claims a 5.6in core whereas BB claims 6in. Is BB rounding up or is the APM core really smaller for some reason? APM claims the finished product is still 9in (10in like the BB if using a 3in topper) so I assume it’s just a rounding game?

Now onto the ILDs. First the toppers. APM offers 22ILD as their topper, so that’s that. BB has more options, but their lower options are 19ILD and 24ILD. I lean towards the softer side so I chose their 19ILD options (if I was wrong and needed to swap to 24ILD they allow for that at least).

As for the Cores, I’ve only been able to lay on 32ILD (Blended Talalay) and it was pretty neutral if not a bit firm. That leads me to believe that it would likely do fine as the Core, but I do like my soft beds so I’m tempted to give 28ILD a try. Therein lies my problem. APM lets you swap cores/have a split mattress so I could order a 28 and 32 (King), see which I like better, and swap the one I don’t, while still remaining roughly $100 cheaper than BB.

Is it bad to drop below 32 for a Core? I see most people prefer 30-40, I never see anyone mention 28. If it’s the general consensus that 32+ is the way to go I’ll just do that and consider adding an additional topper in the future if I want the mattress to be softer.

I also listed the ILD Gap since I heard that if the gap is too large you’re more likely to feel the transition or “crash” into the harder latex (I heard you want to hover around 8 so it seems most of my choices are fine anyway with the exception of possibly the 19-32). I also read (in THIS thread between MikeM and Phoenix) that if the layers are closer in ILD they tend to share the pressure better, whereas a big gap (soft-hard) causes the softer layer to compress much more causing an uncomfortable situation.

I’m 5’10 170-200lbs (weight fluctuates right now for various reasons, will be back to the 170 range soon :whistle: lol). My wife is 5’4 100lbs. Just for ILD consideration (although I know much more than that goes into it).

So really it comes down to:

  1. What freebies come with each mattress (if any)
  2. If I can make my mind up about the core (I’d have to go with APM if I’m undecided since they’re the only ones to allow core swaps).

Bonus/Side question (as it doesn’t relate to these mattresses, at least I don’t think they offer it). Does a triple-stage mattress work any better/worse than a dual-stage (assuming mattress depth/thickness is the same)? For instance, would there be a perceivable difference between a 19 - 26 - 32 (all latex) mattress and a 22 - 32 (all latex) mattress (my thinking is the 19-26 layers would average out to feel about the same as the single 22 layer, even though there are obviously a few more variables to consider like shearing, compression, layer size, etc.)?

10

Hi Maconi,

I think your comfort and design questions would be more effective as part of a phone call with each manufacturer. there are too many “it depends” in the answers along with too many variables and unknowns to try to use theory as a way to make a choice of ILD or design. There are links to some of the theory in mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here and forum searches will also bring up many much more detailed posts as well but these are only generic and not specific to any individual and in general it’s best to either use your own personal testing to decide on the design and layering that works best for you or if that isn’t possible then more detailed conversations with each manufacturer will give you the best odds of making the best design choice. They know more about their mattresses and designs and which may work best “on average” for different people than anyone else.

I truly doubt that things like an “ILD gap” would have any practical meaning for you unless you have specifically tested the exact design and confirmed that it either was or wasn’t suitable.

All Talalay latex is Oeko-Tex certified and most Dunlop is also certified through Oeko-Tex or other reputable certifying agencies. Neither of them would carry any latex (Dunlop or Talalay) that wasn’t certified. Uncertified latex would actually be very difficult to find in the US or Canada although I imagine it would be possible.

There is no “bad or good” or “general consensus” that I would go by … only a design that in combination with all the layers and components working together is suitable for your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP and this may vary with each manufacturer depending on the specifics of their mattress. Choosing a design requires either personal testing or more detailed conversations. If you tested a mattress with a 32 support core and you know the type and blend of the latex and the details of the comfort layer and the cover and quilting and it worked well all together for you then this would make a good blueprint. If it was a little off in one way or another then this would also be valuable information to share with a manufacturer. I sleep on a 28 core and 3" of 22 ILD on each side and I’m 6’5" and 195 … although this would be a very risky design for most people and I certainly wouldn’t recommend anyone try it unless they were confident it would work well for them.

My overall impression is that you may be crossing the line into a level of analysis that would have little real life meaning to you and too much information and analysis or trying to reduce a mattress choice down to a formula can lead to just as many poor choices as too little information. You are dealing with two knowledgeable manufacturers and I would work with the experts and take advantage of their knowledge and experience rather than trying to design your own mattress and becoming an expert yourself so you don’t have to learn what they already know.

Once you have talked with them and made your design choice with each manufacturer and are down to final choices between 2 specific mattresses … then you can look at all the options they each offer after a purchase along with all the other parts of your personal value equation that are important to you to decide on which one is the best value for you.

If they are otherwise identical and every layer is exactly the same type and ILD of latex and the covers are the same then the mattresses would be functionally identical. In other words 2 x 3" cores @32 ILD would be functionally the same as a single 6" core at 32 ILD within the tolerances of the type and ILD range of the latex. In theory the two layers would be slightly softer because they would act a little more independently but this would be outside the perception of the large majority of people and the difference would probably be less than the ILD variation of latex anyway. 3 layers gives you more options to re-arrange or exchange layers to fine tune a mattress for those where this is necessary which is the main advantage of the design.

Phoenix

11

Interesting. Does placing a lower ILD on both sides affect the feel of the mattress any or is it for durability reasons (flipping the mattress)?

If only you knew lol. I’ve had to teach myself many things in life and I over-analyse everything. I’m very critical and also second guess all my purchases long after they’re made. In the end I’m usually happy due to all the effort I put into researching/learning.

This is such a large purchase I’m probably doing too much leg work though lol. It’s just a tough decision (APM for core swapping, BB for better warranty/topper swapping/“free” stuff). I was hoping to find that ONE thing that might push it in the favor of the other vendor (which is why I was scrutinizing every last detail) but in the end it looks like it might be a crap shoot. I may just need to pick one and hope for the best lol. I tried speaking to both manufacturers but I didn’t have time to call Ken and Mario just gave me some salesman run-around (although I’m sure both of them, much like you, are drowned in the same questions day-in day-out so I don’t blame them for having scripts/generic answers lol).

I think I pretty much have all the info I could possibly have. I do wish I could test some different ILD combinations but I don’t know of anywhere near Lexington, KY that has good all-latex mattresses to try (lots of stores have memory foam, or latex/poly combos, but no all-latex). I drove to Florence, KY and tried The Original Mattress Factory’s latex mattresses (one 32ILD, one 19ILD-32ILD) but that’s all I really have to go off of.

For some reason I kept leaning towards BB, but in the end if I can’t find any mattresses to test in person I’ll probably go with APM since I’m pretty sure I want a soft topper (19 or 22) and it’s the core I’m unsure about (which APM supports swapping, not BB).

The only thing that scares me away from APM is that I’m still not sold on the Split-King. I still can’t imagine how it wouldn’t affect comfort (like causing you to feel like you’re constantly on the edge of a small bed rather than on a large bed, or causing the soft latex to swallow/surround you more) but that’s probably more due to my ignorance/inexperience rather than reality. They do have a Full-King option but obviously the return policy wouldn’t be the same (and then I might as well go with BB since it would be the same price, with a better return policy, free pillows, etc.).

12

Hi maconi,

I did it for durability and as part of an experimental design but it also affects the feel and support of the mattress yes.

when I was making my final choices it took me over 2 weeks of going back and forth over every last detail and looking at things that I knew were not really relevant but wanting to find something … anything … to convince myself that one was better than another … and they really weren’t … they were just different. Hindsight says that I probably would have done well with any of them but at the time everything seemed more important than it probably was. I think this kind of difficulty is more common on this forum because there are so many great choices available to people.

The only way I know to make a decision is with longer conversations on the phone to make sure all your questions are answered and then at some point you just need to pull the trigger even though there will probably never be any obvious winners.

It helped that I spent perhaps a hundred hours or more testing layers and analyzing how and why they felt the way they did. The patterns I was able to identify helped make a lot of technical information I was gathering much more meaningful.

In my experience after talking with all your options you will find yourself leaning in a particular direction and sometimes this is the only way to decide …as subjective as “leaning” may be :slight_smile:

Phoenix

13

Alright, we were finally able to try some real mattresses @ WIldcat Mattress in Nicholasville, KY. Pure Latex Bliss. Below are the ILDs (taken from one of your posts).

Pamper
8" NaturalTalalay
2" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 21 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 40 ILD

Nature
10" Natural Talalay
2" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 21 ILD
2" Natural Talalay Pressure Relief 28 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 36 ILD

World’s Best Bed™
12" Natural Talalay
4" ActiveFusion Fast Natural Talalay 21 ILD
2" Natural Talalay Pressure Relief 24 ILD
6" Natural Talalay Latex Support Core 36 ILD

Pamper was too firm. Nature felt alright, softer but still not quite there. We both really liked the “World’s Best Bed”. It was really soft and felt like it still had enough support. Having said that I could go even softer, but I dunno if I that would be best accomplished by taking the core down to 32 or the pressure relief layer down to 22 or so.

However, now my issue is how do I recreate that with APM or BB (2 less inches to work with and 1 less layer). The World’s Bed Bed was nice, but not for the price tag lol. I suppose if I wanted an exact 1:1 copy I could just buy additional toppers when purchasing the mattress. I’ve already contacted APM and BB for their opinions/to see what their solutions are, but I was wondering if you had any insight from your experience.

Another thing, is the “Active Fusion” that different from normal latex (as in would a “21” in their Active Fusion feel more like a 19" with normal latex?)?

14

Hi Maconi,

The WBB and the Beautiful are inherently risky constructions depending on body type and sleeping position. The comfort layers are very thick and soft whichn means that the pelvis can “travel” further than the upper body which is lighter which can lead to back pain. To make it softer yet would increase the risk further and softness itself has many meanings or types so it depends on which type of softness you are most sensitive to (see post #15 here). For most people there is a “bias” towards “comfort/pressure relief softness” and against “support softness firmness” when they are testing mattresses in a showroom and they can pay the price when they take the mattress home and actually sleep on it over the course of the night. It really depends on whether you are in alignment and on how evenly you sink into the mattress.

Thickness also has an effect on softness so adding the foundation with an additional 4" of latex will also make it feel softer (although how much will vary by person). Of course adding a topper or using softer comfort layers yet will also add to “comfort/pressurerelief” softness.

In most cases “just enough” is a better guideline for softness and if you don’t have specific pressure points then it’s probably soft enough and therest is preference and “feel” which can increase the alignment risk for your choice.

You probably can’t because it would need a great deal of experience and knowledge that could take years of ongoing study and experience. You can see a post I wrote just before yours here to get some sense of the complexities that can be involved to “translate” one design into another as soon as you make the first change in design when every small difference can have a compounding effect (or in some cases cancel each other out). This is where mattress design and theory is as much an art as a science. Your best odds are longer conversations and working with a manufacturer that is willing to make an educated guess at how closely their mattress may approximate another mattress and then accepting the risk that smaller differences can sometimes make a surprising difference in what you perceive on a mattress. APM sells the PLB so they may have some sense of how certain layering will compare or “translate”.

Another option you have is to buy every layer in the same type, thickness, and ILD as the PLB from a supplier such as Sleep Like a Bear and then buy an unquilted stretch knit cover that would be similar to the PLB cover and then the only difference would be the effect of the fire barrier.

No … it’s the same blended Talalay latex that has phase change gel added into it and would be similar to the same ILD in Talatech (although some have said it’s a little stiffer).

In most cases ILD differences in the same material less than about 4 in thinner layers would be difficult for most people to detect in blind side by side testing.

Phoenix

15

Quick questiion, how important is it to have a 6in core? I’m actually considering buying from Mattress 24/7 now (even though I know they sell second-hand inventory). However they only have 3in layers (the Core is “6in” but it’s really 2 3in layers, a ~32 and a ~40). I’m assuming the end result is the same but just making sure there wasn’t some unspoken “6in core” rule lol.

Speaking of Mattress 24/7, I know they’re not a member, but does anyone know how to contact them electronically? I get a “Delivery Failure” notification when attempting to email them at both of the emails listed on their site. I suppose I could just call but it’s much harder to fit into my schedule (I’m at work right now, shhh don’t tell lol). I thought about contacting them through their eBay account but the characters are limited so I’d have to split my message up into 3 messages. :dry:

As for matching (coming close) to the “World’s Best Bed” I found these two posts.

https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/mattresses-24-7-on-ebay-vs-sleepez-10000

2" 19ILD Topper on S/M/F. Says it’s not as soft as the “World’s Best Bed”.

https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/mattresses-24-7-on-ebay

3" 14ILD Topper on S/M/F. Says it’s not as soft as the “World’s Best Bed”.

Now I could see the 2" 19ILD not being as soft, considering the WBB has 4" of 21, but the 3" 14ILD? Is it possible that the 14ILD is just so soft that you basically pass right through it (depending on the person obviously)? I’m not sure if that would be a good or bad thing (if it’s super soft to the point of compressing completely under your weight, it would give the feeling of softness without sacrificing support, right?).

As you’ve said before, the WBB is probably soft to the point of sacrificing too much support so I probably won’t try to match it’s softness exactly. It makes me hopeful that the above posters came close without going overboard, I’m just wondering which direction I should go.

16

Hi maconi,

By itself it’s not important at all. Everything depends on whether the overall design provides you with your needs and preferences in terms of PPP. There are some people that would be perfectly happy sleeping on a 6" layer of good quality polyfoam and a basic cover with no other layers or a thin futon and for them this is all they need.

While at one point they were selling seconds …they haven’t done this for about a year now. Post #4 here has more recent information about them.

Phoenix