I visited SleepMaster today and tried out the Skaneatles which is very comfortable mattress and much, much taller than I had expected.
Getting the details out of her about what was in it was a challenge. And the spec sheet she was “not” supposed to show me did not provide enough detail either. I do know there is 3" soft latex in it, some FR highloft, 1.25 inches strataflex (soy urethane foam?), a layer of 3/8" poly foam for center support, pocket coils, some more poly foam under and around the sides.
She could not tell me the ILD of the latex or the gauge or height of the coils. Really just wanted to know how many inches of poly foam were in it but I suspect quite a lot. She will be getting me answers on Monday.
The look and feel of the mattress was very, very close to the Jamestown Majestic Dream. I asked if they would customize it for me by removing the poly and she said yes but would not, of course, guarantee the end resulting feel. Understandable. I would need to pursue this, still deciding if I really want to go the custom route or not…
They also carried WJS Southard’s Organic line and have really, really good prices on this. They can sell WJS mattresses at factory direct prices and they are much less than online or any retail locations. So, their Arcghetype mattress, 2-sided organic cotton/wool offset coil w/3" latex topper (crazy nice cotton/wool cover) they have for $2600. I really liked the feel of this mattress about as much as the Skaneatles and appreciated that it had no poly foam.
Mattress only is $1350. Therefore, if I really wanted to save more money, I could easily find a very high quality 3" topper and get close to the feel for under 2000. Decisions…decisions…
Your “journey” really highlites some of the biggest frustrations of mattress shopping and is really symbolic of the state of the industry today. What should be the easiest thing to find out (the type and quality of the materials in a mattress) has become the most difficult and getting this information can be so tiring and frustrating that many consumers just “give up”. Of course this leads to the types of complaints, lowered durability and high prices that are so common today. Even some independent manufacturers can make getting this information more difficult than it should be. While local manufacturers are usually far more open and transparent about their materials … even here there is a wide range of “disclosure”.
I certainly understand that there is a risk of confusion, “spec overwhelm” and poor choices in “too much” information (which goes beyond the ability of most people to really understand the complex variables involved) as well as “too little” information (which leads to poor value and durability when people pay for “cheap” materials that are in their “expensive” mattresses) but in most cases … the pendulum is way too far on the side of too little.
My personal preference is towards simplicity of both materials and layering that are far easier to both predict and understand. There are less variables involved and even simple constructions can lead to very “high performance” mattresses if the right materials and layering are used. Simpler constructions are also simpler to “adjust” and fine tune after the fact with far less risk for either pressure relief or alignment. Overly complex constructions are in many cases a way to differentiate a mattress with “proprietary” constructions or lower cost materials that really don’t represent a real improvement over simpler constructions and higher quality materials.
A good example of this “simpler” construction is the Archetype which uses all high quality materials and would be a great relatively “firm” base for a topper. If the only difference between the $2600 version and the $1350 version was a topper (and the $2600 version didn’t include a box spring) … then there are a lot of “crazy nice” toppers or combinations of latex and wool toppers or pads that would be less than this and that could be customized to your preferences.
I know this can be the “tough” part even when you have all good choices. The part that gets you to this stage should be much easier than it is though and getting meaningful information should be less like “pulling teeth”. You’ve been persistent enough that you “jumped over” most of the hurdles that were in front of you and this will pay you back in with a much higher quality mattress that will perform the way it should over the long term.
Step by tiny step, more and more manufacturers will hopefully get the message that information about the quality of materials and construction methods they put in their mattress is an essential part of the sales process and consumers will begin to walk right past the manufacturers that don’t provide this. IMO … competition should be based on real information and meaningful differences between different options and manufacturers rather than a competition of “stories” and advertising that consumers have no real way to differentiate in any meaningful way.
Thanks for all your feedback and questions along the way … there are many more that will benefit from all the legwork you have done
I very much agree, this process is much more difficult than it should be. My ex was rolling her eyes when I told her about my mattress search, LOL. I have travelled far and wide in my search of a mattress made with quality materials with good durability and providing me with the comfort I need and at a reasonable cost.
Indeed the Archetype meets my criteria and yes, that Archetype topper adds 1300 to the price if you buy them as a set. Seperately they charge 1500 for the topper. When I told the salesperson, I may just get the mattress and buy the topper separately she said there is no way I could find one, LOL. She said, its half a core!!! Too funny
I am leaning towards the Achetype at this moment and yes, I am tired of looking. There is a considerable risk with my custom build in that its a crap shoot of whether the end result feel will work for me. Archetype seems like a safere route to me.
Question for you now, where would you recommend me look at a really kick butt topper??
What I would like, and I suppose since I am leaning towards an organic mattress now (the Archetype) perhaps an organic topper with the following characteristics :
(1) Quilting - stretch knit fabric (something that doesnt constrict the latex)
(2) Thin layer of cotton/wool for breathability/moisture control
(3) 3" natural medium dunlop (this seems to work the best for me)
(4) Under 800 dollars-ish
Just one more thing, I tracked down more info on the WJS Topper so matching the specs is a bit easier :
20-25 ILD
125 lbs per yd3 of natural rubber
Manufactured using the Dunlop process.
Manufactured in Sri Lanka
Certified in accordance with Oeko-Tex 100. Assures you that the latex is free of any chemical substances which may have a negative affect on your well being.
Most pure latex available. Free of any manmade synthetic latex.
I’ll reply to this in two posts … your last one first because to add to the “confusion” the WJ Southard specs that are listed are wrong (and their own site contradicts them).
If you go to the WJ Southard site here and scroll to the bottom where it says ingredients and then click on the + sign you will see the specs for both their latex mattress core and the topper.
Both of these list the same density (125 lbs/yd3 which is already a "translation to imperial from the metric which the manufacturer uses) and yet they list the ILD’s as being different. This not possible because the density of Dunlop changes with the ILD. Some variation is possible in the same density with different latex formulations or pincore patterns but not to this degree. 125 lbs/yd3 is “about” 75 kg/m3 which is the way that Dunlop is normally rated. In a latex core this would be soft to soft/medium with the ILD in the range of mid 20’s to low 30’s. In a topper this would normally be considered medium. Soft Dunlop with an ILD in the mid 20’s or lower would normally be closer to 65 - 70 kg/m3 or less. Either the density rating of the topper is wrong or the ILD range is wrong.
My guess is that the density of the topper is the part that is wrong and that it is a “soft” Dunlop which means that the density would be lower.
The odds are that the supplier is Latex Green although it could also be Arpico (which are two of the more common Sri Lankan suppliers of high quality natural Dunlop latex). Soft for a complete core (what they both list as 75 kg/m3) would be firmer than “soft” for a topper. The “hardness” measurement on the Latex Green site (what they call kgf which means kilograms of force) is a completely different measurement from ILD (or IFD) and is probably the source of much of the confusion regarding Dunlop latex ILD because it could easily be “translated” as being the same.
You would probably be looking for a “soft” (measured in topper terms not core terms) Dunlop topper to get the rough equivalent.
More about your options and prices will be in the next post.
OK … this is part 2 of my reply to your last post.
First of all … there are several components to the type of topper you are considering that would affect their performance, price, and “value”. One of these is the type and thickness of the latex itself (3" of Dunlop latex in this case). The second is the amount and type of wool that is used in the quilting. Different manufacturers will use different amounts of wool and different wool suppliers also have different types of wool with different properties. Third is the type and quality of material that is used for the cover (in this case organic cotton). Finally is whether the topper is one sided (the wool is on one side only and the two sides are different) or two sided (the wool quilted cotton cover is on both sides of the topper). Two sided is of course more costly to produce.
Here are a few examples of various different types that are similar that are pre-made with various combinations of these materials (all with 2" - 3" of Dunlop and wool and cotton in the cover) with a focus on “organic” or at least natural and as you can see … these generally are quite expensive (and in some cases more expensive even than the one you are considering). These are in no particular order or chosen with a focus on “value”, just examples of some of the choices that are available.
While this certainly wouldn’t be a complete list … it should give you a good idea of the range available when you go with an “organic” pre-made topper of this type. Using only 2" of Dunlop or removing the wool would add to your options and reduce the price.
Now lets compare this to the alternative which is to buy the materials and components separately.
First is the 3" 100% natural Dunlop latex topper. There is a list of latex topper suppliers … some of which are raw latex without a cover and some which include a cover which are listed in post #4 here and there is also a list of topper covers in the same post some of which are wool quilted as well.
Now all that is needed is to decide on a wool layer to go over this if necessary. There are many options here which vary in price and amount/thickness the style of the topper/pad but a likely “rough” comparison would be in the range of 1 - 1.5" thickness. Of course you can “adjust” this if you choose to.
Post #3 here also has more sources for woolen mills and wool toppers.
There are several variables between these two approaches and several similarities. If you choose 3" of natural Dunlop latex of the same density … then these will be very similar between different manufacturers. Stretch knit covers will come in different options but these too will be similar in terms of how they affect the topper combination. The wool itself in terms of different properties, amounts and densities of fill, and different quilting or tufting will be the biggest variable. In addition to this … separate components will be slightly softer than everything made together in the same product because they can act more independently. Of course the advantage of the DIY approach is that you can customize the layers of the topper to your preferences and also that you can replace each independently if one “wears out” or needs replacing before the other. The biggest difference is in value where the DIY approach not only can have the same or even better quality materials but can end up with a significantly lower price than most of the “pre-made” options.
There is also a difference between the different choices in terms of return privileges and shipping policies.
Of course you also have the option of using Talalay (has a greater range of firmness choices) instead of Dunlop with either approach.
With this approach … you also have the ability to buy just the topper/cover combination first and see how it works and use your experience to help you choose the type and thickness of the wool topper that would best suit you.
Thanks for all those links!! I have been shopping around since then.
As for a topper, I am leaning towards either one from SleepEZ $520 (Natural Dunlop 22-24 ILD though Sean told me 20-22, need to verify) w/cover or Arizona Mattress is having a crazy clearance type sale $418 w/cover on this :
No returns though, so you are stuck with it but at a great price. What do you think of the quality? And I wonder if 25 ILD might be too firm though the ones I liked in person had 22ish and 20-25 ILD…
As for the wool topper, flobeds has a nice sale on the St Dormeir wool pad for $160 :
All the options you are considering are good ones IMO but as you mention they all have different combinations of value that may be more important to some and less to others.
The quality is great (it’s 100% natural Dunlop) and it’s in the soft range. The ILD numbers of Dunlop are only approximations in most cases and Dunlop is firmer in the same ILD than Talalay. I would trust the experience of each manufacturer though (at least in these cases) to give you a fairly accurate indication of the “relative” firmness level of their products. I would also make sure you factor in a cover for the topper.
Flobeds has one of the best prices for the St Dormeir but bear in mind that this is a mattress protector that serves a different function (protection) than a wool mattress pad or a topper (which has a bigger effect on the feel and performance of the mattress). It is one of the best choices available for a wool mattress protector and is very popular.
It has thinner layers of wool and is quite stretchy for a wool protector but the wool is more densified and compressed than a wool topper rather than “fluffy” and is designed to provide water resistance and some of the benefits of the breathability of wool at lower levels than a thicker mattress pad or topper. As a comparison … it has 7.5 oz/sq yd which is much less wool than the other options you were considering. The goal with a protector is to give you good protection of the type you want (in this case water resistance and breathability) with the least possible effect on the mattress itself (such as firming up the feel of softer latex).
It’s a great choice as long as you are choosing it for the right reasons and with the “right” expectations
So, based on my personal experience on laying on the Green Sleep Saluna topper and WJS Southard toppers, I have a concern. As you say, the cover makes a difference in the overall feel and since both of these toppers have fairly heavy duty cotton/wool covers, it is my understanding this can impact how much of the “latex” feel comes through. Basically, the end result is a “firmer” feel w/the heavy duty cotton/wool cover than would be with a thin stretchy material.
This was also confirmed by Sean from SleepEZ because he sells both types of covers and customers have informed him that the heavier cotton/wool cover restricts the latex cushioning. And that MOST people prefer the thin stretchy kind as it results in the feel of the latex coming through.
I would like to not “restrict” the latex feel but want the end result firmness to roughly match the Green Sleep / Southard toppers. It seems if I go with a thin stretchy cover and minimal pad/protection layer, I may want to go with an ILD higher than 22 to compensate for the loss of a heavy duty cover. Perhaps 24-26 range??? IDK…
What do you think? The overall feel of both those mattresses w/tops was what I would call medium, if that helps…
This is correct and like any “layer” that is added over another … it will modify the feel of the layer below it. How much this happens will depend on the amount, density, and thickness of the wool. For some this is a benefit (because of the feel and qualities of the wool/latex combination) and while the wool will slightly reduce the ability of the latex to form a cradle … it also has its own more localized cushioning effect and it can reduce the amount of pressure that the more even pressure relieving quality of latex can create in some areas of the body that are less used to it (like the small of the back). In other words … the ability of wool to modify the feel of latex can be a benefit for some (who are looking for less of the resilience or “pushback” feeling of latex) and a detriment to others (who much prefer themore even pressure relief and the additional support in the lumbar curve that latex can provide).
One other thing to bear in mind is that wool will compress about 30% or so over time although this can vary by how it is made and by the quilting or tufting pattern of the topper. Tighter quilting will maintain the loft for longer and will also prevent shifting while looser quilting will be softer initially but may compress more quickly. The compression of any fiber, including wool, will increase the firming effect but wool will always have some resilience remaining because of the nature of the wool fiber itself and it’s natural resilience. Cotton batting for example will compress and become firmer than wool. Airing wool out in the sunshine and some fluffing will help maintain its loft and I have also seen (but haven’t tried this) that a hand steam cleaner can help reduce the compression or matting of the wool but it will always compress to some degree.
All of this would depend on whether you preferred the feel of thicker layers of wool (as opposed to the thinner more densified layers used in protectors or fire retardant barriers) over latex or the feeling of latex by itself with just a stretch knit cover (which would also reduce the cost). I think the best way would be to go one step at a time and start with the topper and then decide on how much (if any) wool you may need to get to the feel and qualities you are looking for. There is no right or wrong in any of this and there are many who prefer the wool latex combination (with thicker softer layers of wool) and many who prefer the feel of sleeping on bare latex although there does seem to be a trend towards sleeping more directly on softer latex with stretch knit covers. This still leaves open the possibility of adding wool afterwards as “fine tuning” for those who love the feel, properties, breathability, and temperature regulation of wool. There is also some evidence that sleeping on wool helps achieve deeper levels of sleep although this could be conected to it’s ability to regulate temperature which can be achieved in several ways.
Bear in mind that you seemed to like the feel of the Cassenovia and the Saluna toppers which both had Dunlop latex that was “modified” by wool. You may very well be one of those who prefers the latex/wool combination although there would still be an advantage to having a separate wool topper over the latex in terms of options and the flexibility of your choices. It may be worth trying a latex mattress without wool (Such as the PLB or others in your area although it’s talalay which is different again from Dunlop) which would be the most accurate way of making a “with” or “without wool” comparison to see which version of the latex “feel” you prefer. It is more common to find Dunlop/wool combinations but talalay is often available either with or without wool. I should also mention that wool over very soft latex will slightly reduce the pressure relieving qualities but wool over firmer latex may actually increase it for some people.
When you ae dealing with minor variations of ILD or the more “difficult” specs like the oz per aquare yd of wool in a topper … it quickly gets to a place where predicting how you will interact with various combinations reaches a point of diminishing returns. Most people will not notice a difference of about 4 ILD or so and there is also a variation of firmness levels across the surface of a Dunlop latex topper that would likely be more than 4 ILD anyway. i would also not trust the ILD numbers when it comes to Dunlop as much as I would trust a density comparison because the ratings that people seem to assign to Dunlop is al over the map. I would be thinking “in the mid 20’s” and then go one step at a time. Dunlop in this range is already firmer than Talalay of the same ILD and is firmer than many people are used to. If you look at the Innomax White Knight (1" 18 ILD and 2" 24 ILD and a 6" 5 zone 28 - 32 ILD all Dunlop with a thin wool cotton ticking/quilting) ) which is sold at Sams Club here you will see from the reviews on the Sams club site and elsewhere that it is often rated as being surprisingly firm compared to what people were expecting.
I personally would order a soft Dunlop latex topper with a cover and see how that felt on your mattress. I would then add any wool that you felt was appropriate based on your experience of actually sleeping directly on the latex topper. I would go with “soft” Dunlop which is likely what all the toppers you are considering are anyway in spite of the differences in their ILD rating. If you go to medium Dunlop (which is the next level up for Dunlop because it doesn’t have as wide a range of firmness choices) you are looking at high 20’s to mid 30’s in terms of firmness and this would be “more than medium” for most people. If it was a little soft (which I doubt based on most people’s preferences) … then the additional wool would help offset that and add its own unique qualities to your “sleeping system”.
Agreed, I may just buy the topper with the cover it comes with and test it out before investing in a cotton/wool pad/cover of some sort. You do make a good point that I did like the “feel” of the cotton/wool covered toppers.
I did, however, try out a mattress at Metro Mattress that had a stretchy cover. It was a Nature’s Rest mattress from their Euro Latex Series (all latex). It had a tad too much of the “sinking in” sensation but I believe that was due it being Talalay. So, probably not a fair comparison.
At Jamestown, their nature line all latex mattresses have a very thin cotton/wool (2 oz) covers. So thin that I think they had little impact on the overall feel of the latex itself. In this case, the Talalay topped mattresses were too soft and sinky for me (lowish ILDs). Interestingly though, the dunlop topped mattresses actually tended to be a tad too firm (3" 24-27 over 6" 32-36).
So it will be intersting to see what a thin stretchy covered 3" dunlop topper in low 20ish ILDs will feel like on the mattress I am contemplating ordering. If it is too “sinky”, perhaps a cotton/wool pad will be the answer. Or maybe even buy a nice topper cover from SLAB though they are a bit pricey!
The mattress itself, by the way, will cost me $300 to have delivered. It is only 75 miles, sheesh!!! Highway robbery. You have any ideas how I could move it cheaper? Do it myself with U-Haul? Could do that for maybe 180ish… What do you think?
This could have been because of the Talalay or it also could have been the combination of thickness and ILD. If you look at the Nature’s Rest here … the three different versions have either 1", 3" or 5" of softer talalay over the support core and base polyfoam layer. Even though the ILD’s of all the upper layers would likely be the same … these would have a “feel” ranging from very soft to firm based on the layer thickness alone regardless of the ILD. I don’t know the ILD for certain but my guess is that it would be in the 19 - 24 range and most likely 19 (Spring Air likes softer versions and does sell a 19 ILD topper). Which of these you lay on would make more of a difference than just the different types of latex (although Dunlop will feel firmer in the same ILD while Talalay has more 'spring" to it).
This would also likely be due to the difference in ILD’s as well. Jamestown uses 14 ILD in the top layer in their plush which is ultra soft. Even here though … a thin layer of densified wool over this would have made the ultra soft latex a little firmer … but it would still be very soft. This too would likely be more about the difference in ILD’s than the difference in materials although again the Dunlop would feel firmer than the same ILD in Talalay. The lower layers will also contribute to how the upper layers feels (depending on the softness and thickness of the upper layers) because they interact together. Even with their Nature’s cloud firm, they call the top layer of Dunlop “medium firm” but the ILD’s they list would be more in the range of medium/soft. It would be interesting to know the density of the latex because this is probably a more accurate way to compare the feel of Dunlop because the ILD listings of Dunlop are “translations” or “approximations” that are all over the map. Density would be more accurate. Surprisingly to many, even a densified 2 oz/sq yd wool quilting can make a noticeable difference in the feel of a mattress, especially if the latex is in the soft or very soft ILD range. Even some of the very thin mattress protectors that many people use can make a difference if they are a little tighter and less stretchy which can inhibit the ability of the latex to conform to a body shape.
Again … I would be very skeptical of Dunlop ILD’s and would place more faith in density comparisons or at best ILD “approximations”. Low-mid 20’s perhaps … but in most cases I would be doubtful of just low 20’s unless it was a continuous pour process rather than a molded process. If it was too soft (and it will not be as “sinky” as either of the talalay versions you tried) … then a cotton/wool pad could certainly firm it up and also increase breathability. That’s is the direction I would go. I would choose a stretchy cover both for expense and so you had more flexibility of choices and treat each as a separate component. Wool protectors, pads or toppers are available in a very wide range of thickness levels which can all “fine tune” a choice of topper with a stretchy cover to different degrees.
Wow … that’s a lot even though truck freight has minimums and is more than UPS or Fedex (which has weight and size limits). That’s more than I paid a couple of years ago to have a latex mattress shipped from Dallas to Tacoma. I personally would go the U-Haul route. You would only need a small one and even $180 seems high for the size you would need although I haven’t checked recently. A friend with a pickup would also be a possibility if you knew one.
I finally decided on and ordered the WJS Southard Archetype mattress. I think it was a good choice.
I did get some more information about the topper that they use just so I can better match it. It is natural dunlop made by Latex Green.
He orders 70-75 kg/m3 density, though on the Latex Green web site I only saw it starting at 75. He mentioned he thinks it is around 20-25 ILD. Would you say that is accurate?
Also, I see other sites (SleepEz, RockyMountainMattress, NorthenNaturals) selling toppers from the same source with a variance of ILDs in the 20’s range.
As I mentioned … Dunlop ILD’s are “all over the map” and I don’t particularly trust any of them to be completely accurate. They are generally used to give a sense of relative softness but Dunlop is made to density. My “guess” would be more towards the 25 (or a bit higher) than the 20 part of the range.
Latex Green lists their 75 kg/m3 (+/- 5%) as 13 - 18 kgf which is kilograms of force. This would be @ 28.5 lbs to 39.5 ILD. Of course this is higher than the ILD really is because they are likely measuring this to a 40% compression rather than the more typical 25% compression which is generally used here. The “translation” to “our” ILD would depend on the compression curve of the latex between the percentages of compression.
They also make a latex topper which uses what they call a softer formulation than their latex cores but they don’t say if this is a lower density.
Latexco has a continuous pour Dunlop (slightly different from molded Dunlop) which is poured in the US and has a density of 60 kg/m3 and an ILD in the high teens which is comparable to Talalay but still has a higher compression modulus (so would feel firmer to most people than the Talalay equivalent).
The bottom line … especially with the ILD variance of Dunlop across the layer surface … is that it seems that almost every Dunlop ILD spec is somebody’s guess or a rough estimate. My contribution to the guesses for 75 kg/m3 +/- 5% would be more in the mid 20’s than the low 20’s.
Latex Green is one of the more popular Dunlop suppliers that are used because they make high quality latex and they are readily available. If they are all ordering the same density toppers, then the “real life” ILD’s would also be the same yes.
If a return policy is a primary consideration … then the big box stores, some other larger outlets (Such as Sears or Wayfair and others that may each have a different policy) or Amazon have refund policies but their inventory often changes so it would involve an online search to find what they may have at the moment.
Weird, I thought I had replied…anyway, here we go again.
The ability to exchange is more of a priority than a return as I am already 90% sure the Latex Green Dunlop Soft (75kg) stuff will work fine. Just in case it is too soft, would like the option of an exchange.
I need to call Sean from Sleep EZ to verify the exchange policy on toppers as well as ask him about the density to see if it matches.
Rocky Mountain left me a voice mail stating they would exchange a topper as long as I pay shipping and 15% restocking fee. But you are correct, neither site posts a policy regarding toppers.
Hi Zen4Life, how do you like your mattress? what one did you go with? I’m in the northeast as well, looking for a king coil/hybrid, found your post very informative.
