Latex Questions and Recommendations

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
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Background:
Hello all. I have been browsing this site for its excellent information this calendar year, and needless to say I have not found any site anywhere near as comprehensive.
I purchased a Novaform Serafina Mattress at the beginning of the year, and already it has become an unsleepable crater on my side of the bed. This mattress has the following specs:
Serafina
1st layer - 3lb density / ild 9.5-13
2nd layer - 5lb density / ild 12-14
3rd layer - 2lb density / ild 40
I purchased this mattress regardless for 2 reasons, Costco’s Warranty and the apparent durability of it in Consumer Report’s testing. However, this testing only considers popular commercial mattresses, and doesn’t give any detail to the actual tests themselves. But anyway I did come across this review:

While this is only a single reference, it lets me know it is not just me forming a crater in these mattresses. I guess due to the low ild and top layer’s low 3 lbs density, this is to be expected.

Latex Questions:
I am going to purchases a SleepEZ organic latex mattress as soon as this post’s discussion is finished, however I need some help with some questions about latex mattresses.

Foam Softening
To what degree does latex soften and how fast?
The Novaform Mattress did start out firm enough I guess, however obviously has unacceptably and quickly softened. Novaform will state that their mattresses don’t need rotating or flipping, however this is logically untrue. There is similar marketing phrases used for latex mattresses, and would appreciate a realistic expectation.
Would buying a firmness level above the preferred tested firmness offset any possible latex softening, if it is a realistic consideration?

Related question to the above:
Just because a latex or memory foam layer doesn’t show an indention doesn’t mean it hasn’t softened to the point of being unusable. I mention this because I came across this video, and would like a related opinion on it.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7USWVNvOMk[/video]
While the talalay springs back that doesn’t necessarily mean the support has decreased due to softening correct? I am basing this question off of my experience with memory foam and it may not apply significantly to latex.

Dunlop vs Talalay
I have read here many times on this topic, and depending on where you look (elsewhere) you will get different absolute answers.
Some stating blended latex is significantly less durable than nearly pure (98 % +) latex, and manufacturers of talalay listing impressive facts about the increased performance of talalay over Dunlop.
I have read on here about the differences which I think summates to talalay is firmer than Dunlop in the first 25% and Dunlop is firmer in the latter (compression modulus I think)

What is the difference in weight from a piece of Dunlop vs talalay?
Let’s say a 3 inch thick twin size piece of one versus the other? I understand the manufacturing differences but I am curious of what the actual weight difference is. I wonder if it is significant and if the reduced material difference is enough to offset the manufacturing differences?
I am surprised some retailers like SleepEZ offer both at the same cost.

Firmness
Sleep EZ’s firmness recommendations are also gone from their website so I am a little lost here. I tested latex mattresses in person for equivalency as best I could, and my results did not coincide with their online recommendations when they were still on their website. Also my preference did not coincide with over the phone advice in which I was told I would wear out the top layer in x years. I cannot remember exactly what he said as he gave a range but it was about 5 years. I guess firmer layers last a little longer than softer ones.

Thank you

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Hi Walruse,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

I’m sorry your Novaform mattress didn’t work out well for you, :frowning: but unfortunately it isn’t unexpected. You can see some of my comments about the Novaform Serafina mattress here. I would avoid any mattress that used more than “about an inch or so” of lower quality and less durable materials and the Serafina uses 3" of 3 lb memory foam which is a lower quality material that would be a potential weak link in the mattress. It’s certainly not a mattress that I would consider. (By the way, I deleted the link to the video you inserted, as it is the type of “review” site/video I advise against people considering when looking at mattresses).

That’s a question that overall is too general and beyond what I could reply here in this reply, as there are many factors involved in foam durability. Overall, latex tends to be the most durable foam and tends to maintain its support factor longer than other types of comfort materials, but there are of course variations depending upon the type of latex used, the density/ILD and the use it experiences. If you’d like to learn a bit more about some of the factors that impact foam durability, you might be interested in reading this post here.

Comparing low density memory foam to latex in terms of durability and performance wouldn’t be helpful to you, as the memory foam is an entirely different material and much less durable than a comparable piece in softness of latex. It is true that some manufacturers offer that you don’t need to rotate their mattresses, but I’ll still recommend that frequent rotations can even out the wear and extend the life of any mattress, regardless of construction.

All latex will tend to be a durable material, and firmer latex “can” last longer than a more plush comparable piece of latex, but all of the layers of a mattress work together to impact durability and as I mentioned previously there are many factors involved in durability. Finding a comfort you prefer and then selecting something that you don’t necessarily prefer would not be what I’d recommend as a manner of shopping for a latex mattress, unless what you think you prefer doesn’t allow for proper alignment/durability (some people tend to select a configuration that isn’t supportive enough or uses too much plush material) as you’d likely get a good comfort life out of an all-latex mattress using materials that you liked or ones that were “slightly” firmer.

[quote]Related question to the above:
Just because a latex or memory foam layer doesn’t show an indention doesn’t mean it hasn’t softened to the point of being unusable. I mention this because I came across this video, and would like a related opinion on it.[/quote]

You are correct that foams can lose some of their “support factor” but not show a body impression. You’ll usually decide to replace a mattress before the usable life of the materials have “worn out”, as the comfort will generally reach a point that you don’t prefer long before these foams have “expired”. The video you link (and I’ve linked to before as well), is simply an extreme sample of foam that was left compressed for a very long length of time (certainly not normal) and would not be something you’d extrapolate into determining the comfort life of a latex mattress in normal use.

[quote]I have read here many times on this topic, and depending on where you look (elsewhere) you will get different absolute answers.
Some stating blended latex is significantly less durable than nearly pure (98 % +) latex, and manufacturers of talalay listing impressive facts about the increased performance of talalay over Dunlop.[/quote]

I can’t speak to what you’ve read elsewhere, but I would consider both types of latex to be durable materials, and you may wish to do a bit more reading between the types and blends of latex here and here.

I have read on here about the differences which I think summates to talalay is firmer than Dunlop in the first 25% and Dunlop is firmer in the latter (compression modulus I think)

While you’re statement is a bit of an oversimplification, you may have read through this post. Dunlop does tend to “firm up faster” as weight is applied than Talalay.

[quote]What is the difference in weight from a piece of Dunlop vs talalay?
Let’s say a 3 inch thick twin size piece of one versus the other? I understand the manufacturing differences but I am curious of what the actual weight difference is. I wonder if it is significant and if the reduced material difference is enough to offset the manufacturing differences?[/quote]

It would depend upon the density of the material, which has an almost direct correlation to the ILD. If you are curious about a piece of Dunlop and a piece of Talalay at the same ILD, the Dunlop will tend to be heavier. And I’m not sure what you mean by wondering if the “material difference is enough to offset the manufacturing differences”.

I don’t know why you would be surprised. Pricing depends upon many factors, including the type of Dunlop and Talalay being compared. Blended Talalay and natural Dunlop can be similar in price, depending upon the source. I think it’s nice when a consumer can have multiple options at a similar price point.

The firmness configurator isn’t on their site as of the latest site revamp, and I don’t know if it will return. SleepEZ would prefer that you have a detailed phone conversation with them before placing an order (as I recommend), as it’s a better way to get more specific advice as to what configuration they feel might work best for you based upon their experience.

You’re not providing any specifics regarding your preferences and phone conversations, so I can only surmise that you stated that you prefer something that is very soft (and even perhaps looking for something for a higher BMI) and maybe you were told that such a very plush configuration wouldn’t be recommended or as durable as you might desire. But that’s the best I can surmise with the limited information you provided.

Phoenix

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[quote=“Phoenix” post=75005]

[quote]What is the difference in weight from a piece of Dunlop vs talalay?
Let’s say a 3 inch thick twin size piece of one versus the other? I understand the manufacturing differences but I am curious of what the actual weight difference is. I wonder if it is significant and if the reduced material difference is enough to offset the manufacturing differences?[/quote]

It would depend upon the density of the material, which has an almost direct correlation to the ILD. If you are curious about a piece of Dunlop and a piece of Talalay at the same ILD, the Dunlop will tend to be heavier. And I’m not sure what you mean by wondering if the “material difference is enough to offset the manufacturing differences”.

I don’t know why you would be surprised. Pricing depends upon many factors, including the type of Dunlop and Talalay being compared. Blended Talalay and natural Dunlop can be similar in price, depending upon the source. I think it’s nice when a consumer can have multiple options at a similar price point.

Phoenix[/quote]

What I mean is if it takes less latex to make a equivalent piece of talalay to dunlop, does that eventually equate to an increased profit for the manufacturer despite the additional equipment required?
I am just trying to figure this out.
It doesn’t make sense that Talalay is more durable than Dunlop as some manufacturers claim, because it uses less latex. If it has a more airy structure, wouldn’t it break down more easily than a denser dunlop? Talalay’s thicker cell walls doesn’t make sense either. If there is less latex than wouldn’t it be thinner? Wouldn’t each cell have farther to collapse due to less latex and more air causing more softening than dunlop?
I know you already went over all this here,
Latex Durability: Dunlop vs. Talalay, but again just trying to figure this expensive decision out. There are different answers everywhere
Thank you

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I guess the firmer the talalay and dunlop get the less air in both

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Hi Walruse,

I’m not sure why you’re concerned with the cost to create a specific piece of latex, but that wouldn’t be information any manufacturer would share with the general public, and there is much more involved with the cost of producing a foamed piece of latex than the price of the actual rubber itself (production process, sourcing of materials, labor force, transportation, region of production, ancillary ingredients, quality control, labor costs, and so on) which would be well beyond the scope of this forum, just like the manufacturing of even the simplest product.

I tried hard to do a really good job of explaining latex durability this in this post (the one you referenced), but it seems you’re glancing over a few things listed there and making a few assumptions. So let me see if I can help with that a bit.

First off, both materials are quite durable and as I stated I wouldn’t necessarily pick one of the other, for the many reasons I listed in that post. As for using “more” latex in Dunlop for a “similar” ILD in a piece of Talalay, there is a difference in how the latex is formed and the cell structure is more “regular” in Talalay, which many believe leads to less internal breakdown even though it can use less latex to achieve a similar ILD to Dunlop. Also, you can have a thicker strut in the cell wall of foam and also have a larger winder at the same time, so you can have thicker walls but larger voids, which can result in less dense material that is also still quite durable.

In the end, as I stated in that post:

[i]While there is no way to “quantify” all this because there are so many variables involved and there is no specific comparative information that is publicly available and because the different strengths and weaknesses of each material will have as much to do with durability in a particular application as the material itself (given the exact same use and the exact same ILD) … based on the experiences of manufacturers that have been working with latex for decades and on the information that is available … this is likely to be as accurate as it’s possible to be.

Since all latex is more durable than most other materials and other types of foam … I would make choices based on which had the more desirable qualities in the application it was being used for, on budget considerations, or on individual criteria and preferences rather than a “better worse” comparison. [/i]

I hope that helps you out. :slight_smile:

Phoenix

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Yes that did help and you are, to say the least, a great help.

I am going in circles trying to figure this out.
I really liked the Pure Talalay Bliss Pamper, however I would get much more for my money if I could find its equivalent in a modular and/or Sleep EZ comparable model.

I also tried Savvy Rest (Top → Bottom):
Long Test

  1. Medium (Dunlop), Medium (Dunlop), Firm (Dunlop)
  2. Medium (Talalay), Firm (Dunlop), Firm (Dunlop)

Quick comparision:

  1. Medium (Dunlop), Medium (Dunlop), Firm (Dunlop)
  2. Medium (Dunlop), Firm (Dunlop), Firm (Dunlop)

They all feel light years ahead of the nightmare I’m on now but all feel quite different.
Comparing setup 1 and 3 briefly, I liked the firmer option (3) better. However this was not a lengthy test as my second visit was, and maybe not as valid.

Trying to recreate the Pure Talalay Bliss Pamper, I very very briefly tried (Top → Bottom) Soft Talalay over Firm Dunlop over Firm Dunlop, and surprisingly did not like it. I didn’t think the 1 extra inch of the modular talalay top soft layer and the firm dunlop beneath would feel so different.

I compared setup 1 and 2 for quite a while, and they feel completely different, which makes it all the more difficult.
Setup 1 feels like it supports my spine more (I assume due to the dunlop) and setup 2 feels like there is nothing there (assuming due to the talalay). I’m not saying setup 2 does not support my spine as I feel straight but it just has no feelings of pressure anywhere. Setup 1 feels like it holds my spine upwards more.

The store did not have a firm talalay layer to try.

I will try the Pure Talalay Bliss Pamper upside down to see what a firm talalay feels like as soon as possible.

Do you have any tips for me?
Also what is the significance of the depth of the mattress?
Firmer mattresses seem to be thinner, and wanted to know your thoughts on that.
I can’t compare 4 layers to 3, but find it hard to imagine that one would be able to feel the difference of an extra bottom layer in any of my setups or mattresses, as the bottom layer(s) are already firm.

The Pure Talalay Bliss Pamper model is glued together as you know, and figured it would raise the stiffness abit.

Anyway, not a cheap decision, and my previous and current mattress are horrible, is why I ask so much.

Thank you

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Hi Walruse,

I’m glad the information I provided was helpful to you.

The last specifications I have for the PTB Pamper are:
2" 21 ILD blended Talalay
6" 40 ILD blended Talalay
FR fiber barrier (fitted “mattress pad” style)
98% Polyester, 2% Elastin cover

SleepEZ is very familiar with the PTB line and if you are attempting to approximate the Pamper they would be able to tell you the closest equivalent they would be able to put together for you in their line. While changing anything within a product, even the covering or FR barrier, will change the overall feel, they would have an offering that would be quite comparable.

You seem to be consistent that you enjoy what most would consider a comfort in the “medium-firm to firmer” end of the spectrum.

This is an example of how small differences can have noticeable impacts upon comfort perceptions, especially in the uppermost layers of a mattress. If this was still the Savvy Rest you were comparing, this would approximately 15-20 ILD soft Talalay on top of two 40+ ILD layers of Dunlop. In essence, the uppermost layer in this example would be softer than the Pamper (and an extra 1") and the base layers would be firmer than the Pamper, and as they are Dunlop they would tend to “firm up faster” (have a higher compression modulus) than the Talalay in the Pamper, so the top layer would not “bend into” the layers beneath it the same as the Pamper.

You’re correct that for most people these would be considered “supportive enough” (I don’t recall us ever discussing your particular somatotype/BMI). I can provide some general thoughts on why one may be feeling a bit different than the other to you. Sample 1 uses more “medium” in the upper 6" than sample 2, and this can allow you to “sink in” just a bit more deeply and perhaps contour just a bit more, which can create a sensation of a bit more “push back” in the areas where there is more deep conformation, which many people interpret as “more supportive”. Sample 2, which using Talalay on top that is “medium” but overall would probably feel just a bit softer than the “medium” Dunlop in sample 1, is underpinned by two “firm” Dunlop layers, and the deeper contouring might not be felt quite as readily as sample 2. You are correct that both of these options should provide reasonable support for most individuals.

This can give you an idea of the surface firmness feel of a 40 ILD blended Talalay, but remember that there would be 2" of 21 blended ILD Talalay beneath it, which would impact (soften) the overall comfort a little bit.

If you’re looking to recreate the Pamper, contacting a knowledgeable manufacturer, such as SleepEZ as you mentioned previously, would be a good start.

The thickness of a mattress is just a side effect of the design and by itself isn’t particularly meaningful because whether a thicker or thinner mattress would be better or worse for any particular person will depend on the specifics of the materials (type, firmness, etc.) and on all the other layers in the mattress. Thickness is only one of many specs that are used to make different mattresses that perform and feel differently and that makes a mattress suitable for one person and not another. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here. Regardless of how thick or thin a mattress may be, the most important part of the “value” of a mattress is how suitable it is “as a whole” for your particular body type, sleeping positions, and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) regardless of how thick it may be.

The main benefit of a thicker latex mattress (or any mattress that uses similar materials) is that it can be more adaptable for heavier weights and multiple sleeping positions. It will compress from softer to firmer more gradually which means that there is more “range” of compression without the mattress becoming too firm for heavier weights (or parts of the body).

While all of the layers of a mattress work together to create your overall comfort, adding a fourth “firm” layer to the bottom of any of the samples you mentioned would make a difference, but it wouldn’t generally be as noticeable as adding a “medium” or “plush” layer to the uppermost layer of any of these samples.

The latex adhesive used is quite flexible, and while in theory gluing the layers together can “stiffen up” things a bit, it generally would be a small difference.

Phoenix

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Hi Walruse,

Kyle - South Park. Funny!

Phoenix

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For reference:
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/new-plb-blue-specs

[hr]
http://www.talalayglobal.com/products/mattress-cores/

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Hi Walruse,

Thanks for posting the photo of the TG chart. It’s mentioned frequently (or I should say the ILDs are mentioned frequently :wink: ) here on the forum.

Phoenix