I am female, 5 foot 10, 150 pounds, curvatious.
I prefer to sleep mainly on my side, and sometimes on my stomach or back.
My male partner is similar in height and weight, less curves, and sleeps on side and back.
I want to compose a mattress with combining latex toppers.
So far we have these layers:
wooden floor
Two 4inch therm-a-rest air mattresses next to each other that could serve as a firm foundation. Ideally, I believe I would need a medium firm base, maybe that is possibly by blowing it up less fully.
A 2 inch Talalay latex topper 24 ILD.
I sleep ok but have sensitivity, light pain and still lower back issues, sometimes shoulder tension. My spine is not straight, I believe in none of the positions.
I struggle with telling if I need more inches of a softer Talalay on top, because when I double the 2 inches of 24ILD it doesn’t seem to make my spine straight either. So sometimes I get confused, do I sink in too much or too little. How much air to keep in the air mattress. The straightest I have achieved so far is with a pillow in my waist when laying on the side.
My haunch is that a 14-19ILD Talalay or 20 Dunlop in 1-3 inches, probably 1-2 inches would solve the issue. Yet how to figure out which of these will really do it?
I have experimented with some synthetic foams that feel more solid than 19ILD, and it only improved it when I zoned it, adding layers everywhere my shoulders and hips are not. I do not want to patch like this.
(My partner seems to be quite flexible, slept well on the 44 ILD Dunlop (solely, on the floor) that we accidentally got at first (returned) while I had lots of pains napping (side) and did ok in the nights cause I resorted to backsleeping. We both don’t like sinking in more than needed though for the spinal alignment, which I believe for me needs to be the space for the hips to sink in arounf 4 inches. to feel comfortable on a mattress.
Do you have any hints on how to proceed the exploration on what’s needed?
I would doubt that there is anyone on the forum that has slept on the specific combination of materials that you are considering that would be able to give you meaningful advice and even if they had their own experience would be unique to them and could be very different from your own.
If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own DIY mattress out of separate components and a separate cover then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).
If you decide to take on the challenge then I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed is a good match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) as a reference point or blueprint and try and “match” every layer and component in your reference mattress (including any springs, any foam layers, and the cover) as closely as possible or use a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here).
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel” that may be useful as well.
While I don’t think that air is a particularly good support core for a mattress (you can see my thoughts about airbeds in this article) … if you are committed to trying it then rather than using thicker layers of softer foam I would probably lean towards using a more progressive firmness approach which used the Therm-a-rest blown up to be as firm as possible on the bottom (to help prevent sagging in the middle of the mattress as much as possible) and then a 2" - 3" transition layer that was somewhere in a medium firmness range on top of that and then I would sleep on these two layers so you can use your your actual experience with the combination to help you decide on the thickness and firmness of a softer top layer for “comfort” and pressure relief on top of that to “complete” your sleeping system (except for the cover that you would be using to enclose all the materials and components which can also make a difference in the feel and performance of a mattress as well).
thank you so much for your reply. I am still experimenting.
I just took a video of my spine, laying on the side, on the fully blown up airmattress, plus 5 inches of foam (IlD 24 talalay). My spine was curved in the start. I then let the air out to see how the curve changes gradually. It is so hard for me to tell. Anytime on those mattresses, I feel tension and slight pain in my lower back, and I can’t tell if it is too hard or to soft. Only that usually my waist would need to be more up.
Do you have any recommendations on seeing real people’s spines fotos laying on different softnesses and how their spine curves, maybe with comments on what to change to get the alignment right?
My curve does not look like any of the ones in the graph you once linked. The hip does not sink in too deep, and yet the image for the too firm mattress lacks the sagging of the center (waist) part of my body.
I guess I can post some fotos if needed, curious what is already out there though.
Which direction (softer or firmer) do I need to go to get that part up more? ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: sleeplikeabear.com/files/2689726/uploaded/buyersguide_firmness_guide.jpg
While a picture or visual cues can be somewhat helpful when you are testing mattresses … they aren’t as reliable as the “symptoms” you experience when you sleep on a mattress over the course of the night.
Based on your comments and “symptoms” and on the layers and components you are using … I would strongly suspect that your combination is too soft for you. 5" of 24 ILD Talalay in the top layers of a mattress would be too soft for most people and your Therm-a-rest is probably also too soft as well and could be sagging in the middle of your sleeping system. As I mentioned in my previous reply I would blow up the Therm-a-rest as firm as possible (which may still not be firm enough to prevent any sagging) and then I would experiment with different thicknesses and firmness levels for the transition and comfort layers on top of it using a “bottom up” approach. I would probably start with 2" or 3" of firmer latex on top of the Therm-a-rest and then use your sleeping experience and any “symptoms” you experience on these two layers as a guideline and reference point along with the information in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to to help you decide on the thickness and firmness of the top layer to “finish” your mattress (except for the cover).
Dear Phoenix,
new questions have arisen. The best combination I found so far is an innerspring mattress and the 2" 24ILD Talalay (Latex International) Topper on top. Yet, this is probably no longterm solution, since the combination is quite high for the loft we’re in, also is not perfect yet, and I still would like a complete latex solution. I had no or little lower back pain on this combination, yet lots of tension in shoulder and neck. Calling mattresses.net the guy said maybe there is not enough softness for my shoulders to sink in deep enough and to get a 3" topper. Since I already have the 2" topper, I mentioned adding 1", and he said that that wouldn’t be the same, but if I wanted to use it I could add another 2" one.
1.) What is the difference between combining layers of the same ILD or having one thicker layer?
The 2" 24 Talalay Topper also doesn’t feel very good to me in general. It feels like my muscles need to work a lot on it. I wonder if that is different with Dunlop, and if the spongyness of Talalay is not for me. My partner also keeps refusing the topper we have, he keeps sleeping better directly on whatever mattress (i.e. air mattresses) he uses without the topper.
2.) Is that probable, that Dunlop works better for us even in the top layers, or is it likely that with the right base, the topper would work for us, or which explanation do you have (i.e. is it too soft)?
Since we initially had the 3" 44ILD Dunlop Topper from sleeponlatex, and he really liked it, I assume that Dunlop might work for us. I really liked the feel of it, too, and yet had incredible lower back pains laying on my side on it. Every morning I felt all my body had been aligned and worked on. We returned it. At that point we were still not wanting to spend so much money, now I think it might have made a base layer, but I also still think it’d probably be too firm for me to sleep on the side.
So I would like to get one of the following, if I just knew that that would work for us (focus on me, since my partner seems a bit more adjustable, as long as he has enough firmness). All of them could be combined with the 24ILD Talalay Topper we already have or we could sell that one. The following can pretty much all not be returned, since we already had one return with sleeponlatex, unless we order this time on a different name… (We also could still be using the 4" airmattresses as bottom layers, or not.)
(3. Is there any company that offers similarly low prices than sleeponlatex? I saw mattresses.net has some ok-prices.)
A) 3" 20 ILD Dunlop
B) 3" 30 ILD Dunlop
C) 6" 24 ILD Dunlop Core
D) 6" 34 ILD Dunlop Core
E) combine two 3" Dunlop Toppers, i.e. 30 ILD and 20ILD
F) 6" blended Dunlop Core in 24ILD or 30ILD, “15% Natural, 85% Syn….” Latex Mattresses On Sale - Latex Mattress Toppers - Phoenix, AZ
Ideally, we want to keep the whole set minimal. One reason is the price, but the quality should not be compromised. Another reason is that more than 8" total means we need to sleep somewhere else, because the loft window won’t open anymore. Ideally, the total would not be more than 6". In the end, again, we may not be in this room for more than 1.5-2.5 years, so this should not be the factor if it compromises basic comfort.
4.) What is the difference of option F) with being mostly synthetic? I usually prefer natural but am open to this option…
5.) Now my question is how the sinking in differs for 6" versus 3" or two 3" combined? You once wrote: “Dunlop will be 4 times firmer at 65% compression than it is at 25% compression while talalay will only be “about” 3 times firmer. So Talalay at 19 ILD will take 57 lbs (or less) to compress it by 65% while “19 ILD” Dunlop will take 76 lbs (or more) to compress it by 65%.”
How does this apply? Both me and my partner weigh 150pounds, but I do not know how much my hip or shoulders weigh in laying positions.
For example, how is 3" of 30ILD Dunlop plus 2" 24ILD Talalay or plus 3" 20ild dunlop different from 6" 24ILD, and will my spine more likely be aligned with a 6" 24ild dunlop core or 3" 30ILD dunlop topper plus another topper, or 6" 34 ILD dunlop core? (sidesleeping and some stomach sleeping, some backsleeping too) Or a 3" 20 or 30 ILD Dunlop topper on the air mattress versus the 2" 24ILD talalay, which I know and hear you do not have experience with, which I personally would consider as a medium firm +/- adjustable base that does not seem to sag but distribute weight well. (pretty firm when fully blown up, I actually know 3 people that have been sleeping on those with a 1" topper for years and feel really well on those).
6.) How do we go about the purchase? Is there any place i.e. by Chicago or in Wisconsin that we could go to and try out layers of Latex? The closest thing I could lay on in a store nearby was Optimum Sealy Insp. Gold Plush: 2" OptiCool Gel Memory Foam, 3" OptiSense 4.0 lbs, with 7" memory foam core of 1.5lb
Should me and my partner go lie on Hybrids (coil core with 2"/3" toppers) and derive what we need from that? Is there a way to base our choice of the above mentioned A)-F) on experience instead of relatively blind guesses? There is a Verlo store we may check out.
Also, my partner slept a couple nights on IKEA Malfors and really liked it.
7.) After all, considering to keep costs low but also find comfort for sleeping, what do you recommend?
Another option could be to order memory foam on amazon because there I could return them if they didn’t work, though I somehow got hooked on Latex… We also keep our eyes out on craigslist but since I still don’t really know what I need…
Thanks again so much…
Multiple layers will act more independently and will feel a little bit softer than a single layer of the same thickness and ILD.
[quote]The 2" 24 Talalay Topper also doesn’t feel very good to me in general. It feels like my muscles need to work a lot on it. I wonder if that is different with Dunlop, and if the spongyness of Talalay is not for me.
2.) Is that probable, that Dunlop works better for us even in the top layers, or is it likely that with the right base, the topper would work for us, or which explanation do you have (i.e. is it too soft)?[/quote]
It’s certainly possible that you may prefer Dunlop vs Talalay latex. There is more about the difference between them in post #7 here but the only reliable way to know which one you would prefer (or which one you will do better with) will be based on your own personal experience.
The better online sources I’m aware of for latex are listed in post #4 here.
Outside of any differences in firmness … synthetic latex is typically a lower density, is less resilient, and has a lower compression modulus (the rate that a layer gets firmer with deeper compression) than natural latex but they would be the best source of guidance about the specific differences between the products they sell and other products they are familiar with on the market.
There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here and there is more about the pros and cons of a single 6" core vs two separate 3" layers in post #2 here. The ratio between the firmness of a foam layer at 25% compression and 65% compression is called the compression modulus but I would keep in mind that it is not linear (the response curve of foam is generally banana shaped) and that the numbers are approximations that were used to illustrate the point.
Even if I (or someone else) had experience on a specific combination of materials and components my experience may be completely different from yours. Unfortunately you are the you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress (or any combination of layers) and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort” or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial)or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
The better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the Chicago area are listed in posts #2 and #4 here. I don’t know where in Wisconsin you are but there is also a list for the Milwaukee area in post #2 here. You would need to check their websites to find out which of them sell individual layers or toppers or have component mattresses that you can test.
[quote]Should me and my partner go lie on Hybrids (coil core with 2"/3" toppers) and derive what we need from that? Is there a way to base our choice of the above mentioned A)-F) on experience instead of relatively blind guesses? There is a Verlo store we may check out.
Also, my partner slept a couple nights on IKEA Malfors and really liked it.[/quote]
Assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the quality/durability guidelines here … the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses are more of a preference and a budget choice than a “better/worse” choice (see this article). There are hundreds of different types of mattresses in each category and the only way to know whether you will sleep well on any one of them will be based on your own personal experience. There could be one or several specific mattresses or designs in any general category that will work well for you and there could be many in the same general category that you wouldn’t sleep well on at all. It always depends on the specifics not on generalities and the only way to know for certain how you will sleep on any specific mattress or combination of layers will be based on your own careful testing or personal experience.
[quote]7.) After all, considering to keep costs low but also find comfort for sleeping, what do you recommend?
Another option could be to order memory foam on amazon because there I could return them if they didn’t work, though I somehow got hooked on Latex… We also keep our eyes out on craigslist but since I still don’t really know what I need…[/quote]
Again I don’t make specific recommendations. I or some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can certainly help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress relative to your weight that you may be considering, act as a fact check, answer many of the specific questions you may have along the way that don’t involve what you will “feel” on a mattress, and help with “how” to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress, manufacturer, or combination of materials is “best for you” regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or whether anyone else (including me) would have the same criteria or circumstances or would make the same choice.
Unfortunately nobody has a crystal ball that can predict which specific mattress or combination of materials you will like best or that you will sleep best on with any certainty based on specs or “theory at a distance” and I would be very skeptical of anyone who claims that they do. It just doesn’t exist.
I went to KenMichaels Furniture in their Downtown Clearance Center Milwaukee and got helped a lot. Awesome!
Layed on a 6" core 32 ILD all Talalay. Layed on 36ILD and 28ILD. 32 was good for my spinal alignment, felt good therefore though a little firm. They had two different bottoms: a plain firm one and a boxspring. I could not tell much different but the boxspring was a little softer so better. 28 was too soft and 36 too firm, both leading to lower back pain. Before, I could never tell if it was too soft and thought I needed to go even softer.
I also went somewhere else and layed on 8" 32 Talalalay plus 1.5" of plush Talalay, I think 23ILD.
Felt good as well, I could not tell a difference of a thicker to a thinner core.
I also layed on 32ILD plus pillowtop, and it did not feel better (not sure if it was worse).
I believe that personally, the alignment is the most important to me (so to not have lower back pain) and therefore the core is what counts mainly.
Sleeponlatex makes organic dunlop layers for a great price, so since I haven’t found anything comparable, I am planning to get a 3" 30 ILD Dunlop layer to play around with, in combination with the 24Talalay topper that I have, that hasn’t really felt good though mostly (too soft) and with the airmattresses. I am counting on that this will be the solution, and this week I can try out some more with 3" 32 ILD layer.
I wonder, since i sank in only about an inch, if the 3" will be enough, or if I can add another 2-3" afterwards someday to get the same effect than a 6" core. I wonder if the production makes them as 3" pieces or if they cut 6"pieces… because due to the settling of the material on the bottom in the dunlop process, then a 3" piece would be denser than a 6" I imagine.
Do you have any more ideas and do you think this is a relatively safe choice? Since I am switching from testing Talalay 32 6" to buying Dunlop 30 ILD 3", I wonder what risks are there… I read this post on it: https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/talalay-vs-dunlop-core-layers-can-you-trust-the-ild-ratings
Is the measuring at 25% compression in a 3" topper at 3/4" while in a 6" core it would be at 1.5"?
I would be up for buying a core, too, haven’t found one in 30-32ild though, or which ILD would I need as a dunlop? I tend to dunlop cause talalay felt less good and is not organic.
If I am understanding you correctly you are planning on trying (from the bottom up) your 4" air mattress and then 3" of 30 ILD 100% natural Dunlop in the middle and then your 2" 24 ILd Talalay topper as the top layer.
Most Dunlop molds are 6" thick but there are a few companies that make molded Dunlop in 3" molds. If a 6" core is slit in half then the bottom 3" would likely be a little bit firmer and denser than the top 3" layer that was cut from the same core but there are ways of compensating for this so the difference may be slight.
The ILD of latex is tested and rated on the full core and then any layers that are cut from the original core would be rated the same as the full core regardless of the thickness.
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.
All the layers and components in a mattress will affect the feel and performance of every other layer and component above and below it and your configuration is so different from the layers or mattresses that you tested and there are so many unknowns and variables involved that there really isn’t any way to know whether the combination you are considering will be a good “match” for you in terms of PPP outside of your own personal experience.
after figuring out that 6’ of 32 Talalay give me great spinal alignment, I got to test different dunlop combinations at a Verlo store. I felt pressure points way more with dunlop, and yet again 32 gave me good alignment (= no lower back pain).
Now I found a used Pure Latex Bliss Pamper for 200$ and am tempted to get it… Supposedly, the pamper model consists of: a 2’’ layer of ActiveFusion is Plush which has an ILD rating of 14ILD-21ILD, and the 6’’ Support Core is 36ILD – 46ILD.
I wonder now how precise my need for 32ILD is, or if I work with this model, i.e. assuming it is 36, add the 24ild on top of the active fusion layer, or get a 32 for in between. I wonder how much better the Pamper would be instead of the airmattresses as a base, under a 3’ 32 Ild dunlop topper.
If you have any input, that’d be welcome.
I will test the pamper out, and just want to explore my options as a base for an on-the-spot decisionmaking.
Thanks!
You can see the specifications of the Pamper (assuming that it’s the latest version) in post #2 here.
There is also more about buying a used mattress in post #2 here.
The only way to know whether any combination of layers or components in a mattress will be a good “match” for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own careful testing or personal experience. The Pamper is the firmest mattress of the PLB lineup and would be too firm for many people (especially if they sleep on their side) but if it’s too firm for you then it would certainly be possible to add some additional softness and pressure relief with a suitable topper.
Hi Cozycomforter and fellow MUGstr,
Welcome to the community. I see that you replied to Ana. You offered some quality advice, and as a pillow guy, they can make or break one’s sleep situation. I am not quite certain about the air mattress suggestion. Can you offer some more information about that?
I tried to take advantage of your website, but it was kind of weird. I clicked on Pillow, Mattress, Blanket and Comforter Pillow, Mattress, Blanket and Comforter. I figured that since your name is CozyComforter, I might find a comforter on your site that was, well, comfortable. As I navigate through the site as I am writing this, it seems like it is a new site, built for offering advice on various subjects. Which seems counterintuitive to the approach we take here at the TMU.
If you were offering a product or bedding system you were selling and could provide us with all the transparent specifications of those products. If those products are of the highest quality materials as are our Trusted Members on this site, we might consider you to become a Trusted Member under our current guidelines. If not, it would not make any sense to post links that are not offering a quality product for our other MUGstr guests to peruse, as we are all about linking our MUGstrs to products and services that pass our very high standard of quality, service and reputation.
I would like to hear your thoughts on becoming a Trusted Member and the high standard of products, services and reputation that you could provide.
Oh, when you look at a post here at TMU the date to the right of the post, is the Month and Year, Ana’s post you replied to was 8 years old, so I am not so certain she would be looking for that Air Mattress Experience.
