Long-term Dilemma

This may take a bit, but I’ll try to summarize the best I can while still relating details.

I’m 6’7" and weigh about 225 pounds and fairly well-proportioned - not fat or excessively skinny. Because I’m so tall, I have to sleep from corner-to-corner on my bed, curl up, or have my feet hanging over the end of the bed. I sleep on my grandparent’s bedroom set, dating from the early 1900s and am going to continue to do so. I primarily sleep on my side, but infrequently will sleep on my back as well. Unfortunately, I sleep alone. :frowning: Honestly, I don’t think I’m overweight or do anything to damage a mattress, but am starting to wonder because of my recent experiences.

My original full-size mattress was very old and developed a hole/broken spring in the exact center. This made for very uncomfortable sleeping as you can imagine. I inherited my parents old mattress when they bought a new one - while being well over 20 years old, it was still a big upgrade from my old one. After a few years, a spring broke and a hole formed in the same place as the other, probably because that spot is right where my hips are no matter which direction the bed is rotated or flipped.

Three years ago, I bought myself a brand new mattress, after much searching deciding on the Doctor’s Choice Plush at Denver Mattress. It felt better than any others I tried, even those costing three times as much. Bought a queen size and used my woodworking skills to adapt my heirloom headboard/footboard to the larger mattress. (Yes, there were metal frames available to do this same thing, but mine is about $150 less and MUCH sturdier/better supported; I can provide pics if you want.) I still have to sleep on an angle as there’s a whole inch to split between my height and the length of the mattress and I’m not comfortable having my head that close to the headboard, but it’s considerably better than the full. It’s very nice being able to stretch out in bed, even though I’m angled.

I’ve never slept so good in my life! :cheer: :slight_smile: Never realized how much pain I was in on a constant basis until it was removed. This went on until I got the flu - it went into my chest and I had to sleep sitting up propped up on a pile of pillows for about 2 months. (Anytime I laid down, I’d start coughing extremely violently, so much so that I thought I was going to damage something in my lungs. :sick: ) After I finally got better, I noticed that I tended to roll toward the middle of the bed and my lower back was hurting in the morning. :unsure: Using the string method with a set of digital calipers, I measured a sag of about 1 5/8" in the middle of the mattress and a lesser amount at different areas. :frowning: At the corner where I put my shoes on each morning, there’s support directly to the floor and there was quite a bit of sag, the entire corner being angled so that you feel like you’re going to slide off.

After putting up with this for quite a while and finally went back to Denver Mattress. The woman I bought it from said that it wasn’t likely a sag but more likely ‘nesting’. She was very helpful, nice, and offered to replace it under warranty, suggesting that the firm model of the same mattress as an alternative being less prone to nesting. She said that the plush and firm are actually the same mattress with the same padding, the firm simply being stitched tighter on the surface than the plush. This is exactly what I did.

All I can say is that as good as I slept on the plush, it was that bad on the firm; it’s like sleeping on a brick it’s so hard. :S I bought a 1.5" memory foam topper as a way to hopefully soften it up - this helped, but my shoulders and hips in particular ache excessively every single morning. (The toppers were on sale any size for the same price, so I bought a king, laid it on the bed, and cut off the excess with a pair of scissors; used a small part of it to make a headrest pad for my car. This extra foam is used later, so stay tuned. :wink: ) Figuring I’d eventually get used to it, I also put a bunch of spare blankets and a couple extra comforters under the mattress protector for added cushioning. Still felt way too hard - I wake up every 45-60 minutes and have to move because my body hurts so much where it contacts the mattress (shoulder against the bed is not infrequently completely numb when waking up), it’s hot with so much stuff on it, and I’m sore for most of every day, but again assumed I’d get used to the mattress.

After several months of this, I noticed a rather familiar ache in my lower back. :huh: Not really wanting to for fear of what I was going to find, I stripped off all the padding and used the string from side-to-side on the bare bed. Sure enough, there’s just over an inch of sag in the same exact spot as the Plush! :ohmy: Having one of those ‘ah-ha’ moments, I took the leftover strip of memory foam mentioned above and put it down the middle in the area that’s sagging, then covered it with the blankets, comforters, and full-sized memory foam topper. This has worked after a fashion - my back still hurts, though not nearly as much, but my entire body still hurts after being in bed for only a short time.

A light bub went off and I tested something else. Before putting all the padding & toppers back on, again using the string, I put half a case of paper on the bed and measured the relative deflection at various locations. Not only is there a permanent sag/nesting/body impression, the mattress sinks more at some spots than at others under the same weight disbursed over the same area. I first noticed this when putting my shoes on one day - sitting down on the corner (where I normally do) felt like I was farther down into the mattress more than if I sit down a couple feet over.

Thinking that it may be something in my body changing as I am getting older (my mother suffers from severe arthritis), I tried sleeping on the couch. My sofa is definitely not what you’d call ‘sleep-friendly’ as the two end seats recline and have footrests; lay on it and you can feel the hard ridges between the cushions. Regardless, my body didn’t hurt nearly as much as I thought it would sleeping on the couch and was certainly nowhere near as bad as I normally feel after spending the night in bed. One night is hardly a pattern, but by this and it all started the very night I got the firm mattress, I have to believe that the bed is at least the primary culprit of the pain I’m experiencing. :dry:

I believe I have two types of pain. First is the all-over aches that wake me up at night and cause lingering soreness throughout the day. It’s my belief that this is being caused by the mattress being way too hard. The other type is in my lower back and seems to be directly related to the sag in the mattress. Even though the present mattress feels like I’m sleeping on a park bench because it’s so hard, my lower back wasn’t hurting until the sag appeared.

The sag isn’t yet at the 1.5" threshold required by the warranty, though I’m sure it won’t be long given that I’ve been sleeping on it for about 7 months now. (Haven’t had a good night’s sleep in that time. :frowning: ) Not knowing what to expect, I went back to the store. To my surprise, she offered to either swap it out for another mattress or give me a partial refund. Denver Mattress certainly has fantastic customer service! :cheer: She genuinely seemed more interested in solving my problem than anything else. Unfortunately, I have lost faith in the durability of this entire style of mattress (innerspring). They’re currently re-doing their latex mattress line-up and had none in stock.

So now this is where we finally come to the present. I spent all of last weekend driving around to every mattress store in my area and got pumped full of conflicting and nonsensical BS at most of them. I’ve watched many ‘educational’ videos of varying quality and have read an insane amount over the past couple months. Here are my thoughts:

  1. I think they make things as difficult as possible on purpose. :angry:

  2. I hate sales people. :angry:

  3. It’s my distinct impression that they build mattresses specifically not to last so people have to go through this crap every few years. :angry:

After spending more effort on research for this than I did for any single semester during my entire 6-year college career, I’m leaning toward an all-natural latex mattress for the durability, reputed comfort, and lack of noxious chemicals in all-natural/organic latex mattresses. (One series of videos in particular was quite convincing, even presenting government reports and independent major news stories that your body absorbs low levels of toxic chemicals, arsenic among them, from the fire retardants added to most mattresses.) All of the pure memory-foam mattresses I’ve laid on make my back scream after only a few minutes, plus I do not like the feel and seriously question the durability based on what I’ve read.

The biggest problem with an all-latex mattress is that the nearest store I’ve found that has them is nearly 3 hours away, so trying them isn’t really much of an option. The closest is a Stearns & Foster Italian Villa Garden, of which only the display model is left; it feels good short-term, but there’s a good amount of non-latex foam in it and the sales people won’t leave me alone to lay on it for more than 4-6 minutes. (This last point makes me want to buy it even less than being slowly poisoned by arsenic… :wink: ) Obviously, I can buy them online, but then don’t know what the feel of the different densities and types are like or if it’ll work well for me.

There’s also the option of having the constructed bed or layered bed that you can move layers around or change them independently. I can see positive points to each design.

At this point, I just need to get some decent sleep as I don’t know how much longer I can do this… I stay up very late every night because I dread going to bed and wake up after 4 or 5 hours too sore to sleep anymore; both sides are too sore to lay on. :frowning: I don’t have a ton of money to spend, but am willing to do so if needed as long as it’ll last and be comfortable. Read many stories of latex beds lasting 30+ years, but don’t know if this is the norm or the exception. All the pros/cons lists I’ve seen list durability as a plus of all-latex mattresses.

To be honest, if I could get a bed that feels like the Doctor’s Choice Plush when it’s new that would STAY feeling like that, I’d love it. However, I don’t know what firmness of what kind of latex would replicate this type of feel or what ILD factor to look for. I don’t know whether the dunlop or talalay latex would be better, though I’ve read that natural is better than synthetic or blended as far as durability and lack of chemicals goes. A couple sources indicate that blends are better than natural, but there are more that have natural being better.

Right now, I’m not even sure if I’m looking in the right direction and would appreciate any advice.

Hi Ruler2112,

Wow … that’s quite a saga,

The first thing I should ask you is where you live (city or zip) because I may know of some better possibilities in your area that are closer than 3 hours away.

You unfortunately seem to be one of those people who are tough on mattresses … probably partly because of your sleeping style, and partly because of your body type and weight distribution, and since you are also sensitive to alignment issues that comes from foam softening … all of these things are “conspiring” against you. While Denver mattress uses higher quality foams than most major manufacturers in their price range (1.8 lbs) … in a softer one sided mattress under the stress of heavier weights this won’t hold up as well as higher quality or firmer foams. You can see some of the different factors involved in the durability of a mattress in post #4 here and the posts it links to but part of the challenge is that you are also sensitive to pressure issues so while firmer foams are also more durable … they can also be uncomfortable. In your current case the quilting is what makes your mattress firmer so the foams underneath are the same in both mattresses. Sitting up in bed in the softer version and and the weight concentration it leads to probably hastened the process as well.

With all of this … it would make sense to use latex but I would also bear in mind that while latex is a more durable material than polyfoam … softer layers of latex in the top layers will also be less durable than firmer latex and the thicker the softer layers are the more they will affect you when they soften.

I think that you have also been given some misinformation about latex. You can read more about the difference between blended and 100% natural Talalay in post #2 here and as you can see in softer ILD’s the blend will probably be more durable than 100% natural. Once you are in the mid 20’s or so the difference would likely start to even out. As you can also see in post #2 here along with post #6 here … with Dunlop it’s likely to be the other way around with 100% natural being more durable than most synthetic Dunlop. Dunlop also doesn’t usually come in ILD’s as soft as talalay.

I should also mention that both blended and 100% natural talalay have been tested for any offgassing in the same way (Oeko-Tex standard 100 class 1) and most of the Dunlop has the same of a similar certification so it’s unlikely you would find any type of latex that has an issue with safety or VOC’s whether it’s blended or natural.

One of the advantages of latex though is that even firmer layers are more “point elastic” than polyfoam and take on the body shape better so they can be more pressure relieving even in firmer versions.

I would avoid the Stearns & Foster “so called” latex mattresses because most of them use fairly thick layers of lower quality polyfoam above the latex and you would be asking for a history repeat because the upper layers are the weak link of most mattresses. Because the top layers of a mattress are it’s “weak link” … this is the exact opposite of the type of construction that uses the highest quality of materials in the upper layers that is the most durable. The top 3.5" of the Italian Villa garden for example is all soft polyfoam and this is what you would be sleeping on … not the latex. The foam they use on top of the latex is a mix of different densities and thicknesses but the best of them would be in the same range as the Denver mattresses and the worst of them would be lower density and less durable yet … in spite of their much higher prices. The latex is also mostly synthetic Dunlop or what they call “smart latex” although it’s still a higher quality material than most polyfoam. The best of them is the firmest model (the River View Villa or equivalent) which only has an inch of polyfoam and its higher density or what they call “high performance” (similar to the foam in the Denver mattresses) so this would be the best of the group but because it would be so firm and given your comments … you would likely need a topper on top to do a good job with pressure relief and comfort. A topper has the advantage of being replaceable though which means that if it softens or breaks down faster than the rest of the mattress you can just replace the topper. It would also increase the durability of the foam below it. Going in this direction with a Stearns & Foster though would put an already overpriced and lower value mattress in a higher budget range yet and it would certainly be more than some higher quality mattresses that are likely available to you.

I would also make sure you have read post #1 here which includes or has links to most of the basic information, steps, and guidelines you will need to make the best possible choices.

Your next step though would be to find some of the better local retailers and manufacturers (or possibly even consider an online purchase if there are none close to you) and if you let me know where you are I’d be happy to list the ones I know about.

As you can see in post #404 here and post #12 here … I think this is particularly true in the mainstream parts of the industry but there are certainly many great exceptions as well if you know where and how to find them.

Again … I would differentiate “good” salespeople that do their job and have the knowledge and experience to do it well and the “bad” ones that are more concerned with “making the sale” at any cost and their profit or commission that goes with it but unfortunately the mainstream industry has many more of the second than the first.

Again this is very true with the major brands but not so much the smaller local or regional manufacturers who operate in a very different way.

These along with a mattress / topper combination (that you have tested as a combination) have the advantage or being able to replace just a layer instead of the whole mattress. Some of the component mattresses are also very flexible in terms of being able to fine tune them with re-arranging or exchanging layers after a purchase so this can be a real advantage as well. On the other hand … there are also many smaller local manufacturers who will open up a mattress and make adjustments to the mattress as well and then close it up again if that becomes necessary but of course you can’t do this on your own.

Zoning with a firmer center zone to help “hold up” the heaviest area of your body (the pelvic girdle) which helps the pelvis from “tilting” and maintain good alignment may also be worth considering although with latex it may be less necessary because of its ability to get firmer with deeper compression (and become more supportive) faster than other foams.

Yes this is not unusual because furniture is designed for sitting and uses higher quality and firmer foams that have different properties (better compression modulus for example so they get firmer faster as you sink into them more). Furniture foams (which just means higher quality) are the types of foam that you will find is used more often with smaller or independent manufacturers. Sofas usually start with 1.8 lb polyfoam in the seating area and then goes up from there.

Yes … all latex is very durable relative to other types of foam but once again these 30 year stories are usually with firmer latex and with mattress designs that don’t have the same thicker softer comfort layers that are more common with mattresses today which would be less durable under greater load than the firmer versions.

If you test mattresses locally then ILD information isn’t important at all because your body will tell you what you need to know about comfort and support. If you make a purchase online then knowing the ILD of the layers you have tested can be somewhat helpful as a guideline (particularly in the upper layers) for an online purchase but it’s often not available and ILD alone is only one part why a particular mattress may feel softer or firmer or have the properties it does (compression modulus, resiliency, point elasticity, layer thickness, quilting layers, construction methods, covers, and other components and the overall design are just as important a part of how a mattress feels and performs as ILD). If you are considering online it’s usually better to go with the guidance of the manufacturer you are working with in combination with your testing experiences than to go with ILD alone.

I think that the people who present this as a “better worse” comparison are completely missing the boat. It’s a personal preference issue and each has a different feel and response so some people just prefer one over the other. They are both useful in different designs that take advantage of the strengths of each material or that cater to the individual preferences that each of us have.

I would keep in mind that the experience and knowledge of the retailers or manufacturers you connect with and work with can be just as important a part of successful mattress shopping as researching mattresses in the maze of conflicting and often biased or misleading information you will find “out there” and the steps I usually suggest are to research the sources (especially to make sure that they are transparent about what is in their mattresses) before you research the mattresses.

Phoenix

[quote=“Phoenix” post=17978]Wow … that’s quite a saga,

The first thing I should ask you is where you live (city or zip) because I may know of some better possibilities in your area that are closer than 3 hours away.[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for reading and writing such a detailed response Phoenix! I knew when writing it that to provide enough detail to explain the situation and what I’ve tried & the effects it had, it was going to get very long. Didn’t realize just how long until I scrolled back to proof-read after writing it. :oops:

I am located just outside of Bay City, MI, 48706. The shops with all-latex mattresses I’ve found online are located in Farmington Hills (10-day exchange policy) and Holland. If you know of or can find a closer place, I’d love to hear about it! :slight_smile:

Do you have any suggestions of how I might be able to alter my sleeping style to be less strenuous on a mattress? I don’t want to continually looking for a new bed and am willing to try new things in order to make one last longer. To be honest, I never knew that there was such a thing as a sleeping style - you lay down and go to sleep. :slight_smile:

I know I’m a big guy, but is 225 pounds excessive to expect a mattress to support? Most of my weight is in my hips followed closely by shoulders, even though my shoulders are wider than both my hips and belly. I know a few people who are well over 400 pounds and they aren’t nearly as tall as I, which I’d think would concentrate the pressure into a smaller area and cause more strain. Is this true or am I missing something? One of my co-workers is addicted to working out and weighs about 280 pounds at about 6’4", but it’s solid muscle; there’s probably more fat in a chicken wing than in his entire body. (I’m glad he’s such a nice guy… would NOT want to tangle with him! :wink: )

Any way to desensitize my body to the alignment issues caused by gradual softening of the foams?

I have thought about trying to go with a king-size so that I’d have more positions that I could sleep in and therefore have the heavier areas of my body distributed around to different points of the mattress rather than having my hips in basically the same spot no matter which direction I sleep in or which way the mattress is rotated… However, I really do not have the space for a bigger bed, don’t even have room for the queen truth be told, in my bedroom. I currently have 3" of space between the bed and entertainment center on one side (don’t use it under the top level of the mattress) and 16-18" between the bed and dresser on the other. In order to open a dresser drawer more than a few inches, I have to move to the side. I might be able to get rid of the entertainment center, even though that would mean semi-major changes as there’s not a day that goes by I don’t use the audio equipment in it for at least an hour or two. Do you think that something like this would be of appreciable help?

So would I be right in thinking that a bed with the swappable-layers would be a good idea for me? That way, I could replace the softer top comfort layer as needed when it breaks down and retain the firmer underneath layers. If I get a bed that has the layers glued together or was completely sealed, this would not be practical. Also, I had an idea. I’ve seen some layered-beds with the option to have the different sides of the bed customizable. What about getting these split-layers only both in the same density and rotating each half periodically? That way the area on the middle of the bed would be on the side and vice-versa, allowing longer usable life out of the same amount of material. Likewise, I could cut it in half and have quarters, allowing me to rotate the top & bottom of the bed into the middle as well. All-told, this could feasibly quadruple the usable life of a given layer, assuming my thinking and views on how it works are correct.

What about a regular innerspring bed with a thick latex topper to soften it? I’d think the cheap foam of the innerspring would break down and cause problems, but you obviously know far more about beds than I ever will.

If I understand this right, I could go with a firmer mattress in latex than I could in an innerspring and not have all the joints of my body contacting the mattress hurt and go numb. Would this be an accurate statement? If so, you’ve just given me a lot of hope! :woohoo: I could probably get a firmer and therefore more durable/longer lasting latex bed over an innerspring and still be comfortable. Most innerspring beds I’ve laid on actually seem to be too soft for me - my shoulders and butt feel like they’re sinking through to the floor if I lay on my back and it’s just not comfortable on my side, probably due to the same effect. There’s a fine line between being firm/supportive and sleeping on a cement slab. :wink:

Thank you for the information on the S&F. You just confirmed my suspicions and shoved me father in the direction in which I was already leaning regarding this mattress. :slight_smile: Coincidentally, you also answered a question I didn’t even asked here that the salesperson could not when asked directly, namely what is ‘smart latex’. Sales guy also said the upper layers of foam were latex only not smart latex, but I questioned this because the description had ‘hypersoft’ foam rather than what it was made from.

You’ll be my hero if you know of one near me. :slight_smile: I wish I could buy and bring home a bed this weekend, but I kind of doubt if that will happen.

Again … I would differentiate “good” salespeople that do their job and have the knowledge and experience to do it well and the “bad” ones that are more concerned with “making the sale” at any cost and their profit or commission that goes with it but unfortunately the mainstream industry has many more of the second than the first.[/quote]

I think the only good sales person I’ve encountered so far has been at Denver. Makes me sad that they don’t have anything more durable or any all-latex beds as I’d love to stay with them given how they’ve taken care of me.

I’ve never heard of this before! Certainly sounds like a good option, though with the zipper-covers being available, think it’d probably be easier and faster just to do it myself.

I’ve heard of this from a couple different sales people, but thought it was just marketing crap/sales-speak. The beds they said have it felt no different when I laid on them than the beds that did not. Should there be a difference in feel or is it more exclusively related to the longevity of the mattress?

If you test mattresses locally then ILD information isn’t important at all because your body will tell you what you need to know about comfort and support. If you make a purchase online then knowing the ILD of the layers you have tested can be somewhat helpful as a guideline (particularly in the upper layers) for an online purchase but it’s often not available and ILD alone is only one part why a particular mattress may feel softer or firmer or have the properties it does (compression modulus, resiliency, point elasticity, layer thickness, quilting layers, construction methods, covers, and other components and the overall design are just as important a part of how a mattress feels and performs as ILD). If you are considering online it’s usually better to go with the guidance of the manufacturer you are working with in combination with your testing experiences than to go with ILD alone.[/quote]

Since I’ve not been able to find local retailers with all-latex beds, I was trying to find something that would match the feel of the DC Plush. ILD is the only objective quantifiable measurement I’ve seen to compare the firmness between different mattresses, though I’ve not been able to find ILD information on the DC Plush. It’d be ideal if I am able to test some mattresses in person, but if I have to go the online route, really don’t know what firmness to get. (One person’s cloud surface is another person’s brick.) I’m really hoping that I interpreted your meaning correctly above and that because the latex has a greater point elasticity I’ll be able to use a firmer and more durable mattress without getting the joint-pain I have with my present bed. Down-side to this is that without testing the different levels, I’ve nothing to compare to.

You mean to say that everything on the internet isn’t necessarily true or objective and is instead half BS and the other half skewed in a particular way to sell you something? :ohmy: Oh, say it isn’t so! :wink: :lol:

I have tried to discount people who tell me things that are contradictory, don’t make sense, or I know to be false from my own knowledge. Analytical thinking is a very strong-point of mine and I tend to over-think just about everything I do, this being no exception. (Can you tell? :wink: ) An upside to this is that I can many times come up with design changes to solve problems before they become apparent and figure out discrepancies in what people tell me. Downsides are that I often take longer to act because I research things to death and that I have a hard time trusting people, especially so when they’re trying to sell me something. (Like the guy with the S&F mattress telling me that the top foam layers are also made of latex… other stuff he said just did not make sense. Or the lady at a different place this past weekend trying to tell me that all mattresses everywhere are built of the same materials and the same basic way and that I should just pick one that feels good so they can deliver it the next day. :blink: )

Again, I really appreciate your advice. Of all the people I’ve talked to, seen in videos, and read articles by, you’re easily the best. :slight_smile: I’m going to read more closely over the rest of what you’ve written and linked to. Please let me know if you’re aware of anyone in my area who handles latex mattresses.

One last thing that I thought of after my initial post. Most of the latex mattresses say that they can go on a special foundation (most made of ‘spruce wood’ slats, in other words, thin pine boards) or on a platform bed. My present bed that I’ve altered has 3, 2x4s on edge and 2 pieces of steel angle iron going across it for support. If I were to build a plywood box to go on top of this as a base for the mattress, possibly with drawers for storage, would it be a suitable surface for the mattress to lay upon? (I’d probably use 3/4" ply supported by 4-5 uprights over the 80" length of the bed.)

Hi Ruler2112,

the better options and possibilities I’m aware of that are within a reasonable distance of you are listed in post # 3 here. Some of these will require some further phone calls and research to find out what types of mattresses they have on their floor and to make sure they are transparent about the materials in their mattresses but you have some reasonable choices relatively close to you.

Other lists that are further away from you include the Grand Rapids area in post #273 here and the Detroit list in post #2 here but I don’t think you will need to travel that far.

Unfortunately there’s not much you can do about the body you were born with and your sleeping style is partly dictated by your size as well. The best suggestion would perhaps be to consider a California King size mattress which is 72" x 84" and would allow you to sleep more straight up and down. Beyond that … it’s more a matter of using higher quality materials in your mattress (especially in the upper comfort layers) that are more durable and can do a better job of withstanding the greater stress you put on them.

Not if the mattress uses higher quality materials and components that are appropriate for your weight and sleeping style. Lower quality materials can soften and break down much faster … even for people with much lower weights. The weak link of most mattresses is in the upper layers and this is where it’s most important to use durable materials.

Yes this is very true although some people have a larger surface area or sleep in “flatter” positions so the weight that comes in contact with the mattress is spread out over a larger surface area. Someone over 400 lbs would be very hard on a mattress regardless of how they slept and would have to pay particular attention to using good quality materials.

No … the range of pressure relief or alignment that you are sensitive to is more of a medical or physiological issue. From the perspective of buying a mattress the best you could do is make sure that you do some careful and objective testing to make sure you are in good alignment on your mattress in all your sleeping positions. The kind of guidance that can help you with this is where an experienced retailer or manufacturer can be one of the most important parts of a mattress purchase. I would focus more on materials that soften less and are more durable than on trying to change your physiology (outside of course of the guidance of a health professional for helping with any health or back related issues that could affect your mattress choice).

I would choose a mattress that suits you in other words instead of trying to force your body suit the mattress.

A King size is the same length as a queen just wider so it may not make a lot of difference but a California King is 4" longer and would probably make a difference yes.

Yes … this or a topper than can be replaced is certainly a flexible design and allows you to replace a layer instead of a whole mattress. Some local manufacturers will also replace just a single layer and rebuild a mattress.even though you would need to take it to them to have it done.

I don’t think I would take this to the length of cutting it in quarters but the half and half layering would make some sense yes. I don’t think in real life you would double or quadruple the life of the mattress but you could certainly extend it if you slept more in the middle of your mattress.

This can also work well but you would need good quality springs for your weight and I would only do this with a mattress that used minimal amounts of polyfoam. If this is done right it can be a very good design. I know a manufacturer who designed a line of mattresses (including latex) that have several different firm mattress base options (that are all flippable) and then offers a series of toppers for a comfort layer that can also be flipped and none of them have any “junk” foam in them at all.

In “theory” yes or at least possibly … but all theory needs to be confirmed in practice with your own personal testing.

It will make more of a difference in how you feel in the morning (with or without back pain or discomfort) if they help you sleep in better alignment. Most of the initial feel on a mattress comes from the upper layers not the base layers. There’s more about this in the basic information post I linked earlier.

You can read more about suitable foundation for an all latex mattress in the foundation thread here but the ideal choice IMO is a slatted rigid base which allows the mattress to ventilate better with slats no more than 3" apart to prevent the very elastic latex from sinking into the gaps over time. You can also read more of my thoughts about solid surface beds in post #10 here.

Hopefully this has helped … but I would focus for now on doing a little more reading from the first post I linked (which will probably answer more of your questions) and then it’s time to do a bit of phone research into your better local options and test some mattresses :slight_smile:

Phoenix

Ruler2122, Welcome to the club of tinker’s and over-thinkers!

I have had some similar experiences trying to find a mattress that will support my hips yet give me pressure relief in the shoulder area. I have tried two latex mattresses without luck, so I will be very interested in what you decide on and how it works for you. Like you, I have been treated well by Denver Mattress.

Here is a link to one of my posts. You might keep an eye on it to see what I find out. As you can read, Phoenix is as surprised as I am at how these latex mattresses have broken down. I have no reason not to trust his experience and knowledge after spending a fair amount of time on this forum.

https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/second-latex-mattress-gone-soft

I will follow this thread. Good luck to you and your aching back. Lew

Your thread is one of those I read before registering here Lew. Certainly curious and more than a little depressing. :frowning:

If you do end up with a Denver Mattress Doctor’s Choice in the future, be sure to check out the plush as well as the firm model. I had the plush for just over 2 years before it started sagging whereas the firm has sagged in less than 7 months. (Yeah, I know this is the opposite of how it’s supposed to be… go figure.)


I was able to get out shopping today while the stores were open and tried a few latex beds. (Thank you for the reference to the thread with the sources Phoenix - never even thought of any of them.) Does seem like furniture stores are only open when people work though… :wink: The phone/internet eliminated most of them - the only other ‘pure latex’ mattress has several inches of memory/polyfoam on top and the reviews I’ve found for that model pretty much reflect that I can expect the same thing as has happened to my 2 new mattresses to repeat, only with one that costs 3x as much and a company that doesn’t stand behind their products.

I started at Sanitary Mattress and talked to the owner - he was great. He makes the mattresses in house and showed me some of the equipment they use, which was quite interesting. :slight_smile:

I explained my situation and briefly summarized the above - he agreed that latex would probably be the way for me to go. I laid on the only latex mattress they sell for about an hour, give or take. While it felt considerably firmer than I think I need/want, it did not cause the pain in my shoulders/hips like a firm innerspring does. It’s tri-zoned, with the hip area less perforated than the head/leg area, and has an ILD of 32-35.

It’s 2-sided flippable (which I like) and is made of all natural talalay latex, though I don’t believe it’s 100% natural. (He mentioned something about starting with the tree sap and adding a small amount of soap or something to make it form right… I could easily be mistaken here as last night was terrible and I got even less sleep than I have been lately. :frowning: I’m probably going to spend the night on the couch tonight just so I can get some sleep. :blink: ) I’m not one of those hippies where everything has to be 100% completely organic or it’s no good, and in fact like the idea of a blend where the natural latex softens while the synthetic gets firmer as they age, thereby canceling each others effects out. Regardless, the cotton cover has 1" of polyfoam quilted into it. :angry: :sick: :frowning:

This hit me like a ton of bricks. How the hell does one get away from this crap?!??!?? I feel like Patrick Swayze in that old movie, They Live. :wink: (Caution - there’s a bad word in this video.) Last 15-20 seconds illustrates perfectly how I feel about the mattress situation right now, only with polyfoam in place of the zombies. :wink: :lol:

He did say that they could make the mattress with a non-quilted cover, but the example of a mattress with this cover looked & felt similar to a plastic tablecloth. :frowning: He also wasn’t sure of how this would affect the feel of the mattress. He gave me the option of buying a 1", 20 ILD latex topper, which he could use to replace the polyfoam quilting inside the mattress for an extra $100 per side for material. (This is his price for a 1" talalay latex topper. The mattress itself is $1400 for both mattress & foundation.) The warning he gave was he has no idea how it would stitch or, like the non-quilted cover, how it might affect the feel of the bed if I went this route. He did mention in regard to innerspring mattresses that if the top comfort-layer polyfoam does compress, they can take it apart and insert batting into it to compensate; I assume something like this might also be possible with the latex as well. He also carries a 2", 20 ILD talalay latex topper for $200 that I could put on top for further cushioning if needed. Honestly, the 20 ILD toppers feel extremely soft according to the scrap piece he had to show, to an extent that I wonder how much impact they’d have as it feels like they’d squash down to nothing right away. (I imagine it’d be like the headrest in my vehicle when I got back in after it’d been sitting in the sun; I used the extra memory foam from the topper currently on my bed and there was nothing there.)

The cover is stitched on rather than having a zipper - it looks & feels like an old-school, regular mattress, albeit very comfortable and heavier than normal. It’s also 7" thick, not the seemingly 2 feet most mattresses are up to ;), so I might be able to actually use the bottom component of my stereo again if I get this one! :slight_smile: (It’s been hidden by the bed being so high due to the increased height of the mattress since buying the new one.) The look of a thinner mattress is more attractive to me as well, though I really don’t care all that much either. I’m for the most part a typical guy where if something functions well, I don’t particularly care how it appears as long as it isn’t horrible. :slight_smile: (My sister is the polar opposite; she’ll spend lots of money to replace something excellent with a cheap piece of crap because the cheap thing ‘looks better’. :dry: For example, she just tore out the 3/4" solid wood shelving in her basement closet that’s been there & working perfectly for forever and replaced it with a bunch of those crappy $30 plastic shelving units… spent several hundred dollars and a lot of time/work doing it and now small stuff drops through the holes in the plastic and the shelves are already starting to sag in the middle after only a few weeks. :huh: )

Back to the mattress - it has a 15 year warranty, first 3 full, then depreciated at 1/15 value per year for the remainder. Both good and bad is that he doesn’t have a threshold of how much sag/nest/impression/cratering/hammocking/droop/whatever-other-adjective-meaning-the-mattress-isn’t-flat-anymore before it’s eligible to be covered by warranty, but evaluates things on a case-by-case basis. To me, this shows that he doesn’t have many issues or else he’d have a policy. (Knowing my luck with stuff in general, I’ll be the first. :frowning: :S ) However, it makes it more difficult to know where I stand should I have a problem. I certainly hope I never need to utilize any warranty, but it’s nice to have things like this specified up-front as well.

Overall, I really liked him and he seems like a nice guy, straight shooter, and doesn’t try to blow smoke or put pressure on you to buy. :cheer: Just from talking with him for an hour or two today, I’d probably be willing to trust him not to jerk me around on the warranty, though I have been known to be somewhat gullible at times. He knows what he’s talking about and isn’t afraid to say he doesn’t know the answer to a question and go look it up for you. He also offered me free delivery, which is nice as I don’t have to borrow the truck from work and haul it home myself. Takes about a week to get one made. I’m very happy I made the drive.

The only things that make me hesitate to buy it are the 1" of polyfoam in the quilting of each side and the fact that it seems too firm, even though I didn’t experience any pain or discomfort while laying on it. Had a thought after leaving - wonder if he could replace the quilted polyfoam with something like cotton, dacron, or polyester - basically, something that won’t break down - for less than $200 extra?

I then visited Tri-City Furniture in Auburn. Walking in reminded me of a preview from that show ‘Hoarders’. :pinch: They have a relatively small building and it’s [b]PACKED![/b] As my dad would say, they definitely have a PHD situation in that place. (PHD = Piled Higher & Deeper :wink: :lol: ) Most furniture stores have a lot of stuff in them, but this takes it to another level. This really doesn’t matter much to me though as long as they have good products & service, though it’s not a favorable first impression to have, not being able to walk around without bumping into stuff and having to duck all the time.

They carry 3 models of Pure Latex Bliss (PLB) mattresses:

The least expensive (I think 7" or 8") was quite firm, even more-so than the 32-35 ILD from my laying on it. After spending a few minutes on it, I felt pressure on my shoulder that to me would indicate a problem if I were to lay on it for any extended length of time.

The second (10") was extremely soft, being too soft IMO. This was supposedly more firm than the next one according to the sales guy, but it definitely felt softer to both of us. (I was lucky enough to have my mom agree to come with me to help sort through all the information/options, plus she comes up with some really good questions at times. :slight_smile: )

The most expensive (13" thick) felt the best of any of them - not too firm and not too soft. I spent about 15 minutes on it and it felt fine. I didn’t spend much time on it for a reason I’ll get to later.

The covers unzip on all 3, even though it appears that they’re all solid blocks of latex and hence nothing to change/swap out. Salesman said that this was so I could wash the cover, something I’ve never considered necessary before as I’ve always used a mattress pad. There was very little padding in the quilted top, though all but the least expensive had an ‘advanced gel-infused temperature regulating’ top… don’t ask what this is supposed to mean, other than the cover has a blue rectangle on it. When I unzipped the cover a couple feet, I saw the block of latex foam (appeared to be solid and by extension, probably the same ILD throughout) and the cover which was maybe 3/8" thick, but closer to 1/4" or less - no polyfoam! :woohoo: However, all 3 are single-sided mattresses, unless one were to remove the cover and put it back on with the core flipped inside of it.

Unfortunately, I have no ILD ratings on any of the PLB mattresses - they’re not on PLB’s web site and the guy had never heard of ILD before. :frowning: (I also asked for a side-sleeper talalay pillow and he didn’t know what I meant. He was even surprised when I noticed the zipper underneath the edge of the mattress, not knowing it unzipped before.) Needless to say, I wasn’t too impressed with his level of knowledge about the product, but he was a nice enough guy and offered me not insignificant discounts on the accessories (topper, pillows) if I bought a mattress, even though he had to sell the mattresses themselves at list price due to their agreement with PLB.

That’s where the problem with them comes in - the best feeling PLB mattress is $3500! :ohmy: Even the cheap one was around $2000, plus I feel I’d need a $550 (after discount) topper to make it plush enough to not hurt. The price factor alone is almost enough for me to eliminate these as viable candidates… EZ Sleep and Habitat are both under $2000 and both offer more flexible options.

So now I know I like the feel of a latex mattress and am down to which to buy. I even have a ballpark range to start with in regards to the ILD factor that doesn’t cause me pain in the short-term. I’d like to buy local, and Sanitary Mattress would definitely be the way to go in that respect, but I’m not ready to eliminate online retailers at this point either. I’d appreciate input on what I mentioned above, specifically, the polyfoam quilted into the cover and feeling too firm while still not being painful.

Hi Ruler2112,

Talalay is either 100% natural or a blend of 30% natural and 70% synthetic rubber. No mattress core is 100% rubber though (synthetic or natural) because there are also other ingredients besides just the latex used to make the foam that can be 5% to 20% of the formula so what this means is that 100% of the latex in the core is natural … not that the entire core only has latex in it.

The natural is more costly than the blend but is also more elastic and in higher ILD’s may be more “comfortable” for some because of the greater elasticity of natural rubber. It’s less common to see the 100% natural and many people will confuse them.

Actually there are many people who prefer a thin layer of polyfoam or other less resilient materials (including wool) either above the latex or in the quilting of a latex mattress. Others prefer the more resilient feel of sleeping directly on latex. You can see my answer to a similar comment in post #6 here. I would also go by careful and objective testing for what I call PPP (Pressure rerlief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) over more vague sensations of “feel”. A two sided mattress will also be more durable than the equivalent materials that are one sided and it’s usually “safer” to go a little too firm rather than too soft because you can always improve the pressure relief of a mattress with a topper but to improve the support or make a mattress firmer you need to remove and/or replace layers which is much more difficult.

Both synthetic and natural fibers will pack down and get firmer over time and most synthetic polyester fibers will also break down faster than polyfoam. This level of customization may also not be unless he orders a whole new cover from his supplier or makes them himself (and either way it could add to the cost because of the custom work or small order required). In any case … I personally would have no issue with the polyfoam if I preferred its feel and performance unless polyfoam itself was something you wanted to avoid for reasons other than performance.

You can see the ILD’s of all the layers (and there are separate layers in all of them) in post #2 here.

Hopefully this helped but if you have any specific questions that I missed then feel free to let me know.

Phoenix