Hi Phoenix. I would like to order a memory foam mattress that is as close to a TempurPedic Supreme model. I believe it has the following: 2 inches of 4.1 lb, 2 inches of 5.3 lb, 3 inches of a base layer on top of 4 inches of a base layer. Do you have an manufacturer that could get close to this? I am from Hamilton Ontario, Canada and don’t mind ordering from the US.
Thanks,
Tom
Hi Tom,
Memory foam is a bit tricky when trying to “duplicate” a mattress as even different varieties of memory foam in the same density will have different feels (speed of recovery, breathability, warmth, and temperature response). The layers above and below the memory foam can also make a big difference in feel and performance as well when duplicating a mattress even though most mattress shoppers don’t pay as much attention to this as they do the memory foam itself when they are testing a mattress as a whole. This means that a memory foam mattress that is similar in construction to another but uses different types or “varieties” of memory foam may offer equal pressure relief, spinal alignment, and long term comfort, even though they may “feel” (a subjective preference) different.
The closest to this particular configuration I know of from an outlet that I know provides good quality foam, options, and value is this one http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/thecoolcomfort10-p-78.html . It has the advantage of being able to re-arrange both the memory foam layers and the support layers to fit your preferences if necessary. The support layers here use 1.8 lb foam (tempur uses 2.2) and doesn’t have the “air channels” but the Aerus foam is more breathable than the tempur and the Sensus is very high quality.
Some other good online outlets for memory foam that I have had the chance to talk with and confirm that they are offering quality products and a few comments are in this thread
Of course the ideal option would be to test some mattresses at a local manufacturer or retail direct sleep shop as that way you could match the “feel” rather than the layering itself and test specifically for pressure relief and alignment. Some of the factory direct options near Hamilton (within about 70KM) include …
http://www.cjmulhollandmattress.ca/ I talked with a saleslady at one of their stores a few months ago and we had a great conversation and I was impressed with what they were doing. When she suggested I talk with the owner Jim, I did (on 2 occasions) but he seemed completely uninterested in my questions or in sharing any information with me about what they are doing. They are also apparently bringing in Natura latex mattresses which would be much more than a typical locally manufactured outlet so I have somewhat mixed feelings about them at the moment … although they may have good value and would probably be well worth a visit since they are so close.
http://www.bbbedding.com/Affiliated-Locations.page Factory direct manufacturer that offers a range of different mattresses and materials.
http://www.qualityrestmattress.com/store_info.htm Factory direct manufacturer. Seems to make primarily innerspring with polyfoam mattresses.
http://www.sleepfactory.com/welcomep.htm They are a franchise group and the knowledge and service of the various outlets will vary from store to store. They are no longer manufacturing mattresses and carry a house brand that used to be made by Springwall but is now being made by by Endless Comfort. They also carry some major brands such as King Koil. The person I talked to at their head office seemed too “busy” to discuss the mattresses they carried and said he would “call me back”. Based on their website and my calls … they don’t seem very interested in providing specs for their mattresses althoug some of the individual outlets are very informed and helpful (and will provide their mattress specs).
http://www.bestwaybedding.com/ Factory direct manufacturer. Run by another member of the Mulholland family but they made it clear that they are not connected.
http://www.fantasticsleepshop.com/ Factory direct manufacturer. Makes a range of low - mid budget mattresses. Can custom build including latex but doesn’t carry them on the floor.
http://www.idealmattress.com/contact.html Factory direct manufacturer. They make their own mattresses using zip covers (so their customers can see what is inside) but also carry major brands (which I would ignore).
http://www.ultramaticsleep.com/contact_us.php Focused more on adjustable beds but they also seem to carry latex and memory foam mattresses
http://www.dreameasy.com/products/100-natural-latex Wholesale manufacturer in Toronto that sells through retail outlets. Based on a couple of conversations I have had with them they seem to be committed to producing high quality products. May be worth a call to see if there are any outlets in Hamilton that carry them.
I would probably make a few phone calls first to get a sense of these outlets and how helpful and informative they seem about their mattresses and materials (especially the ones that are a little further away). I would also mention what you are looking for and see how specific they are with their answers or if they only answer with “come into the store” type of answers.
Hope this helps
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix for your suggestions. I called and visited a couple of stores and I found the sales staff knew less than what I know now after reading most of your information. My wife and I have decided that as per your suggestions in earlier posts, that latex would be the best way to go. There are several latex beds around the area, but none of the sales staff knew anything about the density of the latex in them. We found one bed which was fairly comfortable. It was a Serta Pure Response Splendor Plush. I am 5"10 and 195 and mostly a back and side sleeper. My wife is 5’ 6" weighs quite a bit less than me and she is mostly a side and stomach sleeper. We seem to like the plush comfort layers. What would your recommendations be for us and are there any advantages of 2 piece latex over a 3 piece latex mattress?
Hi Tom,
One of the funniest experiences that can happen when someone knows some “mattress information” is the reactions and blank looks you get when you ask “different” questions from the norm in many of the massd market outlets or chain stores who are trained to tell stories more than they are to provide meaningful information.
The Serta Pure Response Splendor Plush is one of the relatively “better” values in a major brand but they missed the boat when they started adding polyfoam in the layers above the latex core (1" comfort foam, at least another inch and likely more of convolute polyfoam, and then the synthetic fiber which will all tend to compression set and breakdown over time). One of the clues that you can see when manufacturers do this is that their warranty exclusion is 1.5" instead of a typical latex “exclusion” of .75". In other words … the Pure Response line and the Vera Wang line by Serta has too much polyfoam in the comfort layers although they are closer than some other brands (like Dr Breus) which many outlets call a latex mattress when the highest end model only has about 50% latex in it and the lower models much less. The second problem with this mattress … besides that what you feel is a combination of soft cheap polyfoam mixed in with the latex is that the specs of the latex layers themselves are not provided so they are of little use for using as a blueprint. The Simmons Natural Care Elite (not the Natural Care) is another major brand mattress that actually doesn’t use the polyfoam at all so in this case the construction is great but the price puts it out of the value range (unless it is deeply discounted or clearance since it has been out for some time). At least they do provide the specs for this mattress so it can be meaningfully compared with other options. In other words … the major brands usually either “cheap out” on their materials and construction or they inflate their price on the better materials and constructions.
There are so many variables in terms of layering that fits each person individually that only actual testing can determine the exact layering that is best for an individual. There are however some general guidelines that are very useful starting points and there are some suggestions in post # 4 here and Post #4 here in terms of the layer thicknesses and softness of comfort layers that are good starting points. There are also some guidelines in the mattresses section of the site about different sleeping positions, and different weights and body shapes.
The biggest challenge between the two of you will be your wife’s combination side/stomach sleeping which is the most difficult combination of all. Stomach sleeping in general needs a thinner firmer comfort layer and firm support to prevent sleeping in a swayback position and straining the lower back. Testing for pressure relief on her side and then testing for alignment separately on her stomach (making sure her hips don’t sink in too far) will be important for her.
In your case … the biggest issue for many men is making sure that the comfort layers are thick enough and soft enough for the lighter wider shoulders (relative to the weight and width of the hips) to sink in far enough on your side to align with your hips. Shoulders that don’t sink in far enough can lead to pressure issues in the shoulder and arms (tingling or falling asleep) or to alignment issues in the upper back (the upper torso not coming to rest in alignment with the lower pelvis).
The most helpful testing is to test each mattress separately for pressure relief and then for alignment without “mixing up” the two or confusing them with subjective feelings of overall comfort.
While there is differences between having two pieces under the comfort layer vs one … both can have value depending on what someone is trying to accomplish.
If a mattress has a support core of 3" of 28 ILD over 3" of 36 ILD … and then a 3" comfort layer of 19 ILD above it, this would be a “progressive” contruction and the middle layer would in effect “help” the comfort layer to “act” a little softer and thicker than if it had a firmer 6" core of 36 ILD. With a single 6" core of 28 ILD instead … the cradle formed by the comfort layer would be slightly shallower than the 3 layer construction but the hips would sink down slightly more. While some of this seems counterintuitive … each layer either “allows” or “prevents” other layers from compressing more or less deeply. This is what I have called “order of compression” and some examples of testing that show this in action in real life are in post #10 and 11 here.
Phoenix
We found a store in Mississauga called Dormio Organic Beds www.dormio.ca They have several latex beds there for testing. Prices are very high, but it is a very good store with knowledgeable staff. We seem to like the Dormio Embrosia Plush Organic Mattress the best. It is a 6" core of natural Dunlop latex in firm, along with a 4" soft natural Dunlop latex on top. (http://dormio.ca/displayproduct.asp?pID=2&catid=11) My first question is with our sleeping patterns ( me 5’10" 195 pounds and my wife 5’6" and considerably lighter, me a back and side sleeper and her a side and stomach sleeper) this mattress feels good, but in the long run will it be compatible for us? Second question is have you ever had any dealing with this manufacturer? Last question is based on this mattress what would you recommend for on line ordering? Thanks for all of your help.
Tom
Hi Tom,
My guess is that Dormio is a house label for a Sleepek mattress which does a lot of private labeling in Canada and the US. In particular it is similar to this one.
Sleeptek produces some exceptionally high quality mattresses but as you noted they are also somewhat pricey. There is also wool between the latex layers which will affect or “fine tune” the feel over just latex over latex and of course adds to the cost (wool is a more costly material).
Dunlop latex (high quality 100% natural which this is) because of its very high support factor is more suitable for multiple sleeping positions and differing weights than other materials because it can be both soft on top (needed for side sleeping) but then get firmer more quickly with deeper compression (needed for back sleeping and stomach sleeping).
Talalay latex can be made softer than Dunlop so is often preferred over Dunlop by many who want a softer comfort layer for side sleeping. It’s support factor is lower than Dunlop (although higher than other types of non latex foam) so it is more often put together in multiple progressively firmer layers which can effectively increase the support factor.
My biggest concern with Dunlop … particularly with lighter people … would be to make sure that they sank in deeply enough to form a good pressure relieving cradle. This can be tested in the store while lying completely relaxed on the side for 5 - 10 minutes (or longer) and sensing for any pressure points both while lying still and with changing positions.
Alignment can also be tested in a store in all the different sleeping positions to make sure that the pelvic area is not sinking in too deeply (particularly in the stomach position and also on the back) and that the shoulders are sinking in deeply enough on the side. The shoulders … particularly in men … are wider and lighter than the hips and if they don’t sink in far enough this can lead to some upper back strain. Correct pillows are also important for the upper part of the spine and testing mattresses with a good pillow is also a good idea.
It’s sometimes interesting that widely different weights and body shapes can do well on the same layering because the weight distribution can be very similar. I am 6’5" and 195 lbs for example and my DH is 5’7" and under 130 yet our overall weight distribution is similar and the same layering scheme works for both of us so we didn’t need side by side separate layering for our mattress.
Overall personal testing is always more accurate than suggestions at a distance as long as a particular construction is tested separately for pressure relief and alignment. Since this construction is rather simple (6" + 4" of a single material) … it is also easier to “duplicate” through slightly different layer combinations (such as say 3" of a similar or even slightly softer comfort layer (perhaps talalay) over a slightly softer “middle” layer over a firmer bottom layer). The thinnest comfort layer that gives you good pressure relief and shoulder alignment on the side is normally best (particularly with combination sleeping) as this helps with alignment of the hips and lower back support in the other sleeping positions.
The most important step is to make sure you have pressure relief and alignment on the “prototype” you are testing … then this “blueprint” can be used for a DIY construction that has the same characteristics … even if the actual layering is slightly different. This is assuming of course that you choose not to buy the actual mattress you are testing. There is nothing “wrong” with purchasing a Mercedes just because “you want to” if you are in a position to do so… even if a car with lower cost, similar features, and better “value” will perform every function you need it to perform.
Phoenix