Thanks Phoenix. Since you mentioned it I just wanted to mention I only feel the lower back discomfort on my side, not on my stomach. I did contact Novosbed though and they agreed that given my size and sleep style it is much more likely the mattress is too firm than too soft. I ordered the soft Comfort+ kit and will see if that helps, hopefully I don’t sink in too much more with it.
Hi zexpress,
Based upon that information, that confirms my suspicion and I would agree with the comments from Novosbed. I hope that the Comfort+ kit provides the extra comfort that you desire.
Phoenix
So amazingly my topper has already arrived however unfortunately it only made the problem worse with my lower back. I’d go back and ask about the firmer topper but I I have to imagine the issue is less the topper layer and more that the bed itself is not providing enough support for my back.
I have tried so many mattresses over the past 18 months and the only one that seemed to mostly work for me was the Brentwood Sequoia which had a plush top layer of about 2-3" and then firmed up significantly. So firm that it felt like there was a board in the middle of the mattress by mistake. I wonder if I am just not a good candidate for foam mattresses and I should stick to innersprings which I imagine can offer me better support but still offer a plush top given I am mostly a side sleeper and on the light side?
Hi zexpress,
I’m glad your topper already arrived, but I’m sorry it isn’t working well for you. 
Based upon the feedback you described here on the forum and to Novosbed, it certainly seemed to be the logical step, but this goes to further emphasize the importance of your own personal testing.
The Sequoia has wool and 1" of plush polyfoam on top, under which is 2" of 4 lb 14 ILD gel memory foam, 2" of D70 Dunlop latex, 2" of 1.8 lb 30 ILD ventilated poly foam and a 6" 1.8 lb 30 ILD polyfoam core. This would be a “foam mattress” like your Novosbed, but it would be more resilient on top than your current mattress.
Based upon your most recent feedback here and from your previous experiences from the past 18 months, it seems that you responded better to something with less comfort material on top, or what comfort material that is used was more resilient, not allowing you to have as deep of a “comfort cradle”. It doesn’t seem to be as much of an issue of deep support as surface support.
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel” that may be useful as well.
If you do desire some with the motion deadening characteristics of memory foam, you may wish to stay with a thinner layer of the memory foam, such as the 2" in the Sequoia, as opposed to a total of 4"-5" of memory foam.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix once again for all of insight here. The Sequoia was really the only mattress I had tried that came close to fitting what my body was telling me I was needing. I really wished I could have made it work but after the plush initial layers my hips felt like I was hitting a board in the middle of the mattress, same if I tried to prop up on an elbow.
I am wondering if given what I know the most logical step is to try and build something myself. Obviously I can’t exactly recreate the Sequoia nor would I want to but I can probably find something close to what my body is telling me I need. I am thinking something with pocketed coils and then maybe a 1 inch layer of soft dunlop latex with 2 inches of memory foam on top or at least something like that to start. I see many units are zoned in the middle for firmer support but I imagine as someone who is lightweight this may not be as crucial?
Hi zexpress,
If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own DIY mattress out of separate components that are purchased from one or several different sources, then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project … the best approach to a DIY mattress is a “spirit of adventure” where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen). I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed is a good match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP as a reference point or blueprint and try and “match” every layer and component in your reference mattress as closely as possible or alternatively use a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here).
If you decide to go with the configuration you mentioned, you may wish to consider a Talalay layer under the memory foam, as you have been sensitive in the past to the firmness (bending-in) of the transition layers, and the Talalay will firm up a little less than the Dunlop.
Zoning systems can be useful for different applications (not just firmer support in the middle), such as people that have more difficulty finding a mattress with the right “balance” between comfort/pressure relief (under the shoulders especially) and support/alignment (under the hips/pelvis especially) or who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to “match” to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here and the additional posts it links to. A zoned or un-zoned pocketed spring unit should both provide adequate support for you.
Phoenix
This is really helpful. I think what was making me think DIY was more that I was tired of constantly trying and returning mattresses (the Novosbed will be my 5th since starting this search).
The sad thing is I generally I sleep fine on almost anything firm since I can stomach sleep but that limits my ability to side sleep which is my natural preference. I am wondering if maybe I should drop the idea of memory foam entirely and give latex over coils a try. I am drawn to pocketed coils because I feel like they should offer better conforming then a solid polyfoam base and zoning could allow for me to go softer on the top layer without running the risk of lower the back pain I often experience when a mattress is too soft at my hips. There appear to be a few vendors that produce these and offer the ability to customize the comfort layer. Ideally of course I could find one that works for me on the first try but I like that I can make tweaks down the road later not only during a period where I can make an exchange but also years later should I decide to try a different feel as I would imagine the coil unit would be something that should last many years.
Hi zexpress,
A latex over pocketed spring configuration certainly is a popular combination, and many of the experts I know within the industry, who can sleep on anything they desire, prefer such a configuration. Of course, as I always advise, their opinions and experiences would have no bearing on what works best for you. You should instead reply upon your own considerable experience with different mattresses and components and how you’ve reacted to such products.
Latex would be a more resilient material than memory foam, and it would seem to address some of the complaints you’ve made about memory foam and more than likely sinking in too much for your low back to feel comfortable.
A polyfoam core will tend to be more point elastic than a pocketed innerspring, but both will contour well. The pocketed spring will have a more “flat line” response curve than the polyfoam core, and it will absorb more energy (be more resilient). How a pocketed spring unit contours can vary widely, depending upon the configuration (three versus five zone – please see the article I linked to in my earlier reply about that as the hip region is treated differently), number of springs, thickness of steel, overall profile, etc. And as you mentioned, using such a spring unit can allow for you to reduce the amount of foam comfort material, replacing it with something not as thick and also more resilient.
Yes, I would certainly look for something that is customizable, and definitely seek the advice of any manufacturer you’re considering regarding spring unit zoning (if offered) and ILD of the comfort layers offered. There are quite a few forum members who have expertise in latex/pocketed spring products, and I’ve put a listing together of them in this post (along with a few others). If you do eventually decide to purchase from a site member, don’t forget to ask for or use your TMU discount code for that manufacturer.
Phoenix
So it looks like both Arizona Premium Mattress and Flexus have the best prices for latex over coils where I can swap out the top layer although in both cases given my size and sleep style I’d end up choosing the soft natural talalay option. The only major difference I see between the two is the pocketed coil unit. Both are zoned with firmer support around the edge but the one from Arizona has smaller coils in the center third. I have to imagine there must be some benefit to this or is it just a gimmick like boosting coil counts you see on mattresses in stores to make a mattress seem better? I guess I am just trying to figure out if there is some added benefit that would be useful to me that could justify the $150 higher price compared to Flexus. Arizona said their coil unit is on the firmer side of things. I haven’t spoken to Flexus yet but have to imagine at 145lbs a firm coil unit is less important than the comfort layer on a pocketed coil over latex design, right?
Hi zexpress,
Both mattresses use cotton covers quilted to wool and both offer options of natural Talalay latex in a 3" layer. Flexus uses a pocketed spring unit called the Quadra-Flex that has a slightly different arrangement of the springs into “quads” instead of rows. This unit does offer middle third zoning and also a firmer edge reinforcement. The Arizona Premium Ultimate Hybrid uses the Leggett and Platt Combi-zone, which uses smaller Quantum springs along the edge for extra reinforcement and also has the Quantum springs zoned in the middle third for firmer support there. When I checked, the Flexus was listed at $999 for the queen and the Arizona at $1095, for a $96 difference. Both offer a 5% TMU discount.
There is a tangible firmer support in both the middle and the edge of the innerspring with both of these innerspring units.
The two basic functions of a mattress are to provide support and then comfort. At your BMI, I think either innerspring unit would provide adequate support. But even when combined with a similar plush 3" Talalay latex layer, each mattress will have a different feel with the dissimilar spring units and variations in mattress coverings, but unless you had each mattress side by side you wouldn’t really be able to compare those differences (it wouldn’t be an issue of “better” or “worse” - just different).
Arizona also has their newer Eco-Sleep if you are trying to keep your costs as low as possible.
Phoenix
The price difference you quoted doesn’t include the shipping charge from Arizona as unlike Flexus they do not provide free shipping. I am not on an extreme budget and if an extra $150 gets me a coil unit that would have a tangible improvement I don’t mind paying it. I know it’s not a matter of better or worse as much as feel.
I have never slept on a zoned mattress before but thanks to my Brentwood Sequoia I also know what it is like to feel a pressure points in your hip when on your side. I guess I just wonder if using the narrow coils in the center will allow the Arizona mattress support me better without feeling like my hips are hitting a board like they did with my Sequoia mattress.
Hi zexpress,
Yes, you’re correct, Flexus has the shipping cost built into the price of the item and Arizona Premium prices that out separately based upon location.
You mentioned these two brands as having the “best prices”, so that’s why I mentioned the Eco-Sleep from Arizona Premium, as when people bring up pricing it’s usually a larger part of their personal value equation, so I wanted to make sure you hadn’t missed that particular item just in case that was indeed important to you.
It’s a disparate comparison because of the totally different construction of the Sequoia, but both innerspring items you’re considering are more supportive in the middle third, so the transition to the support unit will be a “firmer” transition than a comparable non-zoned item (and probably a more noticeable transition for you using a very plush Talalay versus a medium Talalay as well). Whether or not that feels like your “hips are hitting a board” – I wish I could predict that for you but I can’t, but the pocket coils are softer on initial compression and then firm up as they go into deeper compression, so zoned or not, you may prefer that comfort to a polyfoam support core like in the Sequoia. All of the layers of the mattress work together, and it could end up that you enjoy the response and support of a pocketed spring unit, but find that choosing a plush Talalay ends up allowing you to “feel through” to the innerspring unit too much and a medium Talalay might end up working better. But that’s something you can fine tune (if needed) if you do decide to go the route of a pocketed spring/latex combination.
Phoenix
I went to a local mattress store today that had Posh and Lavish mattresses and I was blown away. I was mostly looking at the Premier pocketed coil model which they sold both with and without a 2 or 3" topper although I was surprised how comfortable it felt even without the topper. Unfortunately it’s way out of my price range however it did lead me to look again at Luma sleep who designs a similar concept. While I know there is no way to fully match one to the other I wonder if you know anything about the specs of the Premier mattress from Posh and Lavish. At the store all they had was that it was 1" of natural talalay latax over coils with 1" of dunlop as a base layer. It also has a wool layer over the talalay latex. They thought the coil unit might be zoned but weren’t sure and had no idea on the ILD of the latex layers. The Luma then is 1.5" of blended talalay over coils with a 1" polyfoam layer underneath and no wool. Do you know anything more about the specs of the Posh and Lavish models? I reached out to the company but it being a Saturday not sure how soon I will hear from them. Also how much impact do you think the lack of wool will have on feel? From reading on here it seems if anything wool over time will make a mattress feel firmer as it packs down. Overall it seems used more as a natural fire barrier and temperature regulation then anything else.
Hi zexpress,
As you’re already aware, Posh+Lavish doesn’t tend to provide much meaningful information about their mattresses. From what I’ve been able to find through different retailers offering their products, the Premier is the entry model in their “Pocket Sprung” line. There is a 1" piece of Dunlop, which I believe to be continuous pour from Mountain Top. I am unaware of the blend. I’ve seen it termed as “natural”, but I’m not sure that is means it is 100% NR (I’ll describe this a few sentences later). I’ve seen the pocketed spring unit referred to as a 1068 spring count in a queen, and I’ve also seen it described as having a perimeter edge system with firmer springs in the middle third, and all of this would tend to line up with the Leggett and Platt Quantum Edge Combi-Zone spring unit. On top of that is 1" of “natural” Talalay from Talalay Global in what I’ve seen described as “medium” or “medium-firm”. While these names for plushness aren’t standardized, lining up with Talalay Global’s comfort designations, this might put this Talalay layer at around a 28 ILD. There is wool used for the FR barrier, but I do not know the amount/placement (I did see a total of 8 lb. listed on one site). I believe this wool to be in a fabric encasement placed over the interior of the mattress componentry, much like a “FR mattress pad” (similar to what Pure Talalay Bliss uses in design). The covering is a Tencel-faced stretch-knit and is washable.
The reason I believe the latex used in this mattress may be blended is that I see that there is a retailer showing a Posh+Lavish AuNaturale line of pocket sprung mattresses, and in this line they state the latex is “all natural”. This nomenclature follows a similar nomenclature that Kurt Ling (one of the founders of Posh+Lavish and former founder of Pure Latex Bliss) used in the Pure Latex Bliss line, where the blended Talalay was termed “natural” and the 100% NR Talalay was termed “all natural”. I don’t have confirmation on this, but if I had to guess I would think that the latex used in the upper layer of the Premier would be blended Talalay.
The Luma mattress uses a 1" HD polyfoam base layer (this would be similar in feel to the Dunlop bse used on the Posh+Lavish being so deep in the mattress), on top of which is either a Quantum Edge Bolsa or Quantum Edge Combi-Zone pocketed innerspring unit (phone them to decide which you may prefer). You have a choice of three ILDs (19/28/36) for the 1.5" of blended Talalay on top from Talalay Global. The 28 ILD would probably be closest to the Posh+Lavish. Instead of wool, the use a non chemical, inherent woven rayon/silica layer for FR compliance. The cover is a removable/washable Tencel covering.
You are correct that over time as wool compresses it will tend to firm up a bit, but this varies based upon the blend and amount of wool used. It won’t dramatically change the feel of the mattress, but it is something of which to be aware. It is used in the Posh+Lavish to pass FR regulations, but it does also offer comfort and a certain amount of temperature/humidity regulation, but it is under the covering and your mattress pad and fitted sheet, so the “temperature regulation characteristics” would be minimized to an extent.
Phoenix
Thanks Phoenix and I heard back from Posh and Lavish who basically confirmed everything you suspected. The latex is a blend with it being of medium firmness for the 1" in the comfort layer of the Premier, she didn’t state ILD but as you said it is probably 28ILD just like in the Luma medium firm. They also confirmed the toppers I tried were a soft latex but told me they sell also sell an additional topper they refer to as “worlds softest” so I would guess that model is 14ILD and the one I tried was 19ILD. She also confirmed the zoning for the coil unit.
So I guess my last question is how much of a difference in feel might I notice between say going with doing something where I use the mattress and a separate topper vs having two layers in a single mattress say of matching ILD’s? I love the idea of Luma with the one year exchange policy but through Arizona’s DIY Mattress site I can make a mattress with their combi-zone coil system, 2" of 19ILD talalay and 2" of 28ILD talalay along with a cotton cover for almost $400 less even with the Luma TMU discount. Obviously I give up a full mattress warranty but I also don’t feel like I would have any weak links in this mattress to worry about either. Of course maybe I just talked myself into going this route anyway. 
Hi zexpress,
I’m glad that Posh+Lavish was able to get back to you with some meaningful information, and I’m also happy that the specifications I provided you were accurate. B)
For the sake of comparison, assuming that all of the layers would be the same with two different mattresses, but one mattress contained all of the layers within a complete mattress encasement, and the other encased all of the layers but one in a complete mattress encasement and left the final layer in its own topper encasement, you would generally expect to have a slight difference in surface comfort and point elasticity with the item using the separate topper, as that material would be less confined. This is assuming that both products are using the same covering materials for both the mattress encasement and for the topper. The covering used by Luma is a Tencel that would generally feel more flexible than the covering used by Arizona Premium.
As you mentioned, you would have an exchange policy in place with the Luma Hybrid Slumber System (along with free pillows and a mattress protector), which would not be the same when you are buying separate components, so you have to evaluate that on your Pros and Cons list. But both items you’re considering are using good quality materials, so you are choosing between “good” and “good” in this situation.
Phoenix
I think you’re right at either being a good fit. Given my past failures with finding the right fit but generally finding firmer better then softer I’m leaning towards Arizona as I imagine two inches of 19ILD over two inches of 28ILD will be the right fit but worst case if it’s too soft I can flip the layers for a bit more firmness. I don’t consider the pillows a plus with the Luma as I’m very particular on pillows and will unlikely change from what I have now. Thanks again. I’m sure I’ll report back in the coming weeks with how it all works out.
Hi zexpress,
I’m looking forward to your comments, and keeping my fingers crossed!
Phoenix
So I am waiting to get my mattress refund from Novosbed before starting my ordering but I realized Arizona only sells their 2" talalay at 22ILD and not 19ILD like they do for their 3" layers. Will there be that much of a difference between 19 and 22ILD in a 2" topper? If it might be something that would be noticed I don’t mind looking elsewhere for 19ILD talalay but figured I’d ask to see if it was worth my time. This layer would go over a 2" 28ILD layer that would be over the pocketed coil unit.
Hi zexpress,
It’s a small difference and some people aren’t able to tell one from the other, but unless you had them side by side you wouldn’t be able to know for sure. Arizona Premium lists the blended Talalay in 3" at 19, 28, 32 and 36 ILDs, which align with Talalay Global numbers. The 22 ILD listed for the 2" aligns with the S5 from Radium, so it might be that they are using Radium blended for that piece, but I’m not sure. They list their 2" 22 ILD as “super soft”, so it may be that in the 2" they feel the 22 ILD is more appropriate than a 19 ILD. I would suggest a phone call with them where they can explain why they offer what they do.
Phoenix