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Discussions General Mattresses Questions
18

Phoenix,

I am going to try my wife’s side again. What we were really hoping to find was latex with a pillow-top feel to it. Unfortunately, all we have found around here is latex with a soy-based top (i.e. the Englander and one of the Natura mattresses). We thought we were getting that with what we have based on the description of the quilting. But th quilting is no more than what we would get from a mattress pad. Are we looking for something that simply does not exist with real latex?

Thank you, Glenn

19

Hi Golson22m,

A pillowtop can have many different feels to it. What is usually meant by “pillowtop” is a few extra inches of soft foam that is surrounded by fabric and attached to a plush mattress (which already has several inches of foam in it). How it feels will depend on what type of foam is in the pillowtop. Quilting on the other hand is a thinner layer of fiber or foam which is sewn or quilted to the actual mattress ticking and a backing fabric on the other side like a sandwich using various quilting patterns which are either closer together (making a firmer surface feel) or farther apart (making a softer surface feel). In other words a pillowtop could have memory foam, polyfoam, or latex in it and could use firmer or softer foam and different quilting materials and quilting patterns … all of which will change the feel of the mattress.

Most pillowtops use softer polyfoam which is subject to breakdown and body impressions and pillowtops as a rule are better avoided as a construction method … at least when they use the type of materials which are usually used in mainstream mattresses or mattresses that are often found in most chain stores. It can indicate though a subjective preference for a certain “feel” of being more “in” a mattress than “on” a mattress. This feeling can be achieved with or without an actual pillowtop through the use of thicker layers of softer foam or memory foam. The pillowtop “feel” often comes from a thicker softer layer over a much firmer layer or innerspring where the top few inches of a mattress is much softer than the layers underneath it (what I call a differential construction). In Europe … it is quite common to have a pillowtop that uses a separate foam topper that can be added to a firmer mattress and replaced when it breaks down or becomes too soft without replacing the whole mattress.

So with latex … a “pillowtop feel” would be closer to several inches of very soft latex (14 - 19 ILD) over a support core of much firmer latex (in the mid 30’s or higher) … with a ticking that was stretchy and “loose” enough to to allow a person to sink into the soft latex on top. It would be a combination of very soft over very firm rather than a more gradual transition between layers (what I call a progressive construction). It could also be several inches of soft polyfoam (not recommended) or memory foam over a firmer support system.

Pillowtops or an equivalent feel (with or without an actual pillowtop construction) can be great … as long as the materials used are durable and not prone to breakdown and early failure leading to body impressions and hills and valley’s in the mattress.

Phoenix

20

Phoenix,

You stated previously that you could not find any manufacturers in Vermont, do you know if we could find any in the Glens Falls, NY, Hanover, NH or Holyock, MA areas?

We would really like to find somewhere to test the softer comfort layer over a firmer core before spending money shipping new layers back and forth.

Thank you

21

Hi Golson22m,

Here are a few that will hopefully help (mostly near Holyoke). It would probably be a good idea to call them first to make sure they have roughly what you are looking for (2-3" of softer latex over a firmer core) before making a trip.

Holyoke

https://yankeemattressfactory.com/ Agawam, Northampton, Greenfield, Springfield, MA. Factory direct manufacturer. They are also a member of this site.

http://www.sigmamattressfactory.com/Home.html Feeding Hills, MA. Factory direct manufacturer

http://restopedicmattress.com/index.html Bethany, CT. Factory direct manufacturer.

http://www.flybynight.com/ Northampton, MA. Retail store that sells Berkeley Ergonomics mattresses

http://www.theorganicmattress.com/ Sudbury, MA. Retail store that carries Naturepedic, WJ Southard, GreenSleep, and VISPRING!

Glens falls

http://www.savvyrest.com/ Factory direct manufacturer. Have a search function to find local dealers

Phoenix

22

Thank you. What would cause the prices from these companies to be so much higher? They are all 2 to more than 3 times as much for a mattress similar to what we have?

The latest from Matresses.net is they want to sell me their “Rejuvenite” 3" topper to go over what we have. Based on what you have told us, that does not sound like something you would recommend to meet our needs, correct?

Thank you, Glenn

23

Hi Golson22m,

It’s hard to know for sure without knowing the specific details of the mattresses you are comparing but in very general terms there can very large difference between prices for very similar mattresses. There are many reasons for this including the expenses of the business selling it, the profit margin of the business, the length of the supply chain, the business model of the outlet, the cost of raw materials, and many other factors. This is one of the reasons why I stress so much to make sure you know the details of every layer of a mattress and how it is built so that you can make more meaningful comparisons. It’s also one of the reasons for the existence of this website so that consumers can discover that there is a huge difference in the quality and value between different outlets.

The “short” answer is that there is better and worse value and the range between different outlets is amazingly wide and you purchased a mattress from an outlet that offers some of the best values in the country (like the other members here and many other local manufacturers that are not yet members).

Having said that though … because the list from my last post is mostly local manufacturers (rather than retail outlets and chain stores) it would surprise me if the difference between “identical” mattresses was 2-3 times in every case and it could also be that you are not comparing “apples to apples”. There are many “parts” involved in the construction and pricing of a mattress that are not always obvious.

It appears that they are probably headed “in the right direction” within the limitations of the products and materials that they offer. It may or may not be what you are looking for though and testing various mattresses will help you to know how likely it is that this may work for you.

The Rejuvenite topper is 3" of softer latex (19 ILD) which is the second softest ILD of blended talalay latex available from latex international. The only softer one is 14 ILD. To put this in perspective … and with the understanding that there is really no way to compare any memory foam to latex in terms of feel … memory foam is usually in the range of about 9 - 15 ILD. This is somewhat misleading though because the feeling of memory foam depends on humidity and temperature and also on how quickly it is compressed while latex compresses instantly (like water can feel firm if you press or “slap” it quickly but soft if you press it slowly). They are very different materials.

It seems that they recognized that you are looking for the “feel” of a thicker and softer upper layer where you can sink more deeply into the mattress. While the rejuvenite topper would certainly allow more sinking in, it may be a little too thick for best alignment and it still wouldn’t be as “soft” or allow as much sinking in as an equivalent layer of memory foam. Memory foam is a more “in the mattress” feeling while latex is a more “on the mattress” feeling … even if they are the same ILD.

So the bottom line is that the only real way to know is by testing similar layerings to test for Pressure relief (which is likely to be fine with a soft latex topper), Posture and alignment (which is unknown and depends on your own weight distribution and sleeping positions), and Preferences. Because latex is a more supportive foam than both memory foam and polyfoam … the odds are greater that a thicker softer layer of latex will work for you than the same thickness using other materials but because this would give you about 5" of “softer foam” on the top of your mattress which is more than “normal” … only testing would tell you for sure if this would work for you.

Just as a further idea … if you were to email Pure Latex Bliss, they will give you a list of any outlets that are near you that carry their mattresses. The Beautiful model is 3" of 19 ILD latex over 2" of 24 ILD latex over 6" of 36 ILD latex which is fairly similar to what you would have with the 3" Rejuvenite topper. This would give you a chance to test a similar construction for Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Preference and feel. They also have a 14 ILD talalay latex topper in 2" and 3" versions and it may also be interesting to see how each of them feels to you on top of their Pamper model (which has the least amount of softer latex in the comfort layer of all their models) just to get a sense of what the very softest latex feels like in a couple of different thicknesses.

Phoenix

24

Hi Phoenix,

I have contacted Pure Latex Bliss for a local retailer. In reviewing my past communications I found the following e-mail that I sent to Mattresses.net the day after I placed our order…

Below are the specs for the Natura mattress that we like. Will what we ordered give us this feel and support in your opinion?

Thank you, Glenn

Cashmere blend ticking
• Furnishes sumptuous comfort that’s natural, breathable and healthy

4.2 lbs Pure NaturaWool™
• Reduces tossing and turning from temperature fluctuations
• Improves circulation by buffering pressure points

Natural cotton fire barrier
• Meets and exceeds all Canadian & US flammability standards
1" Convoluted Dunlop latex (blended)
• Enhances contouring, supple support

4" 3-Zone Talalay Latex (blended)
• Delivers targeted shoulder, hip and lower leg support
• Absorbs motion transfer so couples can sleep together undisturbed
• Reduces exposure to dust-mites and other allergens

4" Talalay latex
• Unifies consistent feel across the whole body

2" Coconut coir
• Provides a firm, breathable base

While we did like the one with some memory foam, we also liked this one which does not have any. If “sinking in more” is the way to better pressure relief, then that would be what we are looking for. Would it make any sense to replace my 2" top with the 3" Rejuvenite layer instead of placing it on top?

Thank you, Glenn

25

Hi Golson22m,

Your example here can provide a good illustration about how similar materials but different versions and layering patterns can create a very different feel … even if it provides similar levels of pressure relief and support. At least we know that there is a latex mattress that you like.

I’m assuming that the Natura you are describing is the Solace Luxury even though this description (which matches the Natura description online) is different from the specs of the Solace Luxury you mentioned in post #24 of this thread.

First of all it has a thicker layer of wool which can be a positive or negative but certainly adds to the cost of a mattress because wool is not an inexpensive material. A wool layer this thick will also significantly affect how the latex underneath it feels.

The next layer is 1" of convoluted blended Dunlop. This is likely “soft” because even if the dunlop itself is firmer the convoluting makes it act as a softer layer.

The next layer is 4" of 3 zone Talalay which I am guessing would be 2" of soft and 2" of medium but the ILD of the soft and medium isn’t specified so these 2 layers could be different from someone else’s version of “soft” and “medium”. The zoning will give it different characteristics as well.

The next layer is 4" of Talalay which I am guessing would be “firm” but again there is no mention on their website of what the ILD is.

Finally below this is 2" of coconut coir which would be very firm.

So in essence you have about 3" of “soft” latex over 2" of medium latex over 4" of firm latex over 2" of very firm material. This has a quilted ticking with a thicker layer of wool. While this can provide a very general guideline for an online purchase … even small changes in the ILD or layering can change the feel or how a mattress performs. If my “guesses” about the layers are right … then the closest approximation to this would be 3" of softer latex over a 6" firm core with a wool quilting. While this may approximate the pressure relief and alignment of the Natura … there are so many unknowns that it almost certainly wouldn’t be the same.

Your mattress on the other hand is 2" of soft Talalay over 6" of medium (on your side) which is a different mattress. While this may be (and likely is) the closest approximation inside the layer thicknesses and ILD’s that are available at mattresses.net … it would certainly not be the same … there are just too many differences and unknowns in your “reference” mattress.

If you added the 3" topper to your mattress … you would certainly sink in more but it is unknown if 5" of soft latex will provide the best alignment because it is outside of anything you have tested. Replacing the top 2" with a 3" topper isn’t really a possibility as the topper is a separate wrapped latex layer and removing the 2" on top of your mattress would in effect be the same as making an entirely new 6" finished mattress and then adding the 3" topper on top. While I’m sure he could probably do it (have you send the entire mattress back and then re-use your core to make a 6" mattress and send it back to you) … this would likely be much more expensive than a layer exchange or the addition of a topper to what you have and I am guessing you would lose any possibility of a refund (you would need to ask him this but normally custom built mattresses do not have a refund as far as I know).

So I would probably try to test the Pure Latex Bliss or something similar with a thicker softer comfort layer just to make sure that it at least is close to what you need and want.

Phoenix

26

Hi Phoenix,

We went to the Savvy Rest dealer today and tried several different combinations. These were not blends as ours’ currently is.

Dunlop Soft: 22-30
Med: 31-39
Firm: 40+
Talalay Soft: 22-24 (this was all they had with Talalay)
All layers were 3".

Our favorite was 3 layers of Dunlop with the 3" soft talalay on top. But you had recommended very soft at 15-19 which they did not have unfortunately.

Wife’s side: Med-Soft-Soft
My Side: Firm-Firm-Med
3" talalay on top

We did also like the following (less cost due to 3 layers only):

Wife’s Side: Med-Soft-Soft
My Side: Firm-Med-Soft

Given these results, would it make sense to add the “Rejuvenite” topper to what we have (an additional cost obvioulsy) or to start fresh with new layers? Of course, we currently have all talalay layers while these were dunlop, with the exception of the one soft (22-24 ILD) talalay layer.

If we were to start over with new, I was thinking of changing my wife’s to a medium core and mine to firm, changing the 2" comfort layer to med (split this layer) and then the rejuvinite topper. Your thoughts?

Thank you, Glenn

27

Hi Glenn,

This is some good feedback and is really helpful. It also “points” in the same direction as your previous testing.

This was not so much a recommendation as it was a suggestion to try very soft latex so you could have a sense of how the softest latex felt in comparison to memory foam which is about the same ILD but feels very different. If both firmer latex and softer latex has roughly the same pressure relief and both feel good to you … I would always choose the firmer. softer is only necessary if you need or prefer a deeper cradle (more sinking in). For most people … 19 ILD or even latex up to 24 ILD is good.

One of the difficulties with Dunlop is that it’s hard to know exactly what firmness you have. The range of 22-30 is all the way from soft to medium in Talalay and if you have a 22 ILD in one version and a 30 in another they will feel and perform very different. This kind of variability is part of the Dunlop process while Talalay has a more consistent ILD across the surface. This is also why actual testing is more accurate … especially with Dunlop … because the mattress you are testing may use firmer or softer Dunlop even if it is rated the same. Which part of the core a 3" layer was cut from (top or bottom) will also make a difference in the softness of a 3" Dunlop layer because the bottom 3" of a 6" core is firmer than the top even though their rating would be from the rating of the 6" core. What happens is that the full core is rated and then every thinner layer that is cut from it is rated as a thinner piece of the same ILD. Most people will notice an ILD difference of about 4 or so but some are more sensitive and the difference can also be more apparent over the course of a night.

My thoughts are also that only the heaviest people need more than 9" of latex unless there is a specific reason for it (such as some forms of zoning or progression). In this case … I don’t think there would be any real benefit even though they will feel a little different.

I will make a few assumptions about the Savvy Rest layers for ease of description and for the sake of comparisons even though they are “best guesses” and not necessarily accurate (for the reasons I just mentioned). These assumptions are that the “soft” Talalay they offer is N2 natural talalay which according to the Latex international website is 22 ILD on average. We’ll assume that the soft Dunlop is about 26 ILD on average, that the medium is about 35 on average, and that the firm is about 44.

So using the 3 layer Savvy Rest mattress with 3" of soft talalay over 3" of medium Dunlop over 3" of firm Dunlop as a reference …

This would be the rough equivalent of 2" of soft Talalay over a medium (28 ILD is usually called medium) 6" layer of Talalay in terms of both pressure relief and support (this is your wife’s side). This would be about as close as you could get to the Savvy Rest in terms of pressure relief with a mattress with a 6" + 2" construction in Talalay using the available materials. This is because the top inch or so of the 28 ILD (28 ILD means it takes 28 lbs to compress a 6" layer by 1.5") Talalay support core would be the equivalent of about 22 ILD in the first inch of compression (less weeight compresses it less) and would act as part of your comfort layer on top. When you compressed it further it would get firmer and act as part of the support system of your mattress. This is a progressive construction where the top part of the support layer acts as part of your comfort layer.

So what I would suggest (for you) is this …

Try sleeping on your wife’s side for a couple of nights (if you haven’t already) to see if the 2" of soft Talalay over the “soft” (actually medium 28 ILD) talalay support core is good for pressure relief and alignment. The type of feedback that would be valuable would be specific in terms of pressure relief and spinal alignment rather than more subjective feelings of soft or firm. This will tell us whether changing the support core on your side to 28 ILD talalay will solve the issue.

Your specific feedback on your wife’s side would help determine what may be next. I would think that you will not need more than 1" to 2" of soft Talalay on top of what you have if your wifes side isn’t suitable. 1" would give you 3" of soft latex similar to the Savvy Rest but there would also be a layer of ticking and quilting mixed in with this top 3" (in between the top 2" of your mattress and the 1" topper) which would firm it up a bit. This is why you may need 2" instead of the more “exact” duplication of the 3" Savvy Rest layer.

This may (or may not depending on your experience) need a firmer support layer underneath it for best alignment. I would think that this extra comfort layer may do best on the firmer latex on your side of the mattress (the comfort layer wouldn’t need any “help” any more) and you could even choose a firmer 6" layer underneath it if you needed even more support.

As far as possibilities for your wife … it would help to have her specific feedback (in terms of pressure relief and alignment) about your current mattress and the savvy rest. The medium Talalay over soft Dunlop over medium Dunlop would be the rough equivalent in talalay (using 3" layers) of soft over medium over firm. Because she is lighter … she may need an even softer topper in the range of 14 - 19 depending on what exactly she is experiencing on what you have and what you’ve tried.

So let me know the specifics of what happens when you sleep on your wife’s side for a couple of nights and also her specific feedback on the savvy rest and your current mattress in terms of pressure relief and alignment and then it will be much easier to decide what may be the best next step.

Phoenix

28

Hi Phoenix,

I have spent two nights on my wife’s side and found it to be too soft. She “feels” like it is too “thin” and she found a lot more pressure relief when we tried the talalay on top of 3 dunlop layers, and found not as much, but more than she has now, with the dunlop soft-soft-medium layers. You did not mention the 3’ Rejuvenite topper, is that because you think it would be too thick overall? Are you suggesting that adding 1-2" on top of what we have may be better than changing to 3 layers of 3 inch?

You stated, “So using the 3 layer Savvy Rest mattress with 3” of soft talalay over 3" of medium Dunlop over 3" of firm Dunlop as a reference …

This would be the rough equivalent of 2" of soft Talalay over a medium (28 ILD is usually called medium) 6" layer of Talalay in terms of both pressure relief and support (this is your wife’s side)"

…so the classification of my wife’s 28 as soft should really be medium and my 33 should be firm?

Thank you, Glenn

29

Hi Glenn,

It would help to know what you mean by “too soft” because this can have many meanings.

I am guessing that the “pressure relief” softness is fine and that there are no pressure points (or most people would describe it as too firm). Too soft could also mean that it is allowing some part of your body to sink in too far which is the version of softness that is used to describe alignment and is more about the deeper layers. Finally there is the subjective feeling of softness which is more about the perception of how the mattress feels to a particular individual overall even though the pressure relief and alignment may be good. Each of these has a different “fix” so it would really help if you could relate “too soft” to a particular symptom, part of the body, or feel.

As you are discovering … layer thickness is just as important as layer softness. the thinner the layer on top … the more the layers below it come into play with the pressure relief aspects of a mattress. Some of this is also subjective and has to do with how pressure is distributed along the body. Some parts of the body are also more pressure sensitive than others for different people and this would also change their description of a mattress. Overall though … a side sleeper usually does better with a comfort layer in the range of 3" and if a two inch layer is chosen instead, then the support layers need to be much softer to make up for the thinner comfort layer.

I would think that an additional 3" of soft latex on top of the 2" you already have would give you a very thick comfort layer on top of 5" which would be great for pressure relief but may not be as good for alignment. I usually recommend the thinnest possible comfort layer that “works well” for pressure relief in all sleeping positions. Thicker than that and you risk the best alignment. Changing to 3 layers of 3" of similar ILD and material would be a more accurate “duplicate” construction of the savvy rest that you seemed to like but adding 3 more inches of soft latex to what you already have (instead of 1 or 2) may make the comfort layers too thick. This is why I suggested trying the Pure Latex Bliss which would be similar to adding the 3" topper to see how it worked for you in terms of alignment.

Soft, medium, firm, and the other “firmness” descriptions are really only relative terms. If you look at the Latex International website you will see the names they use for the different ILD’s of Talalay latex. Other manufacturers will describe similar ILD’s in different ways. If you go down to the ILD scale on this page … you will see that they call 24 soft and 28 medium and 32 firm.

When different foams are used in a mattress however … the terms used generally change according to where in the mattress a foam is used. 24 ILD for example would almost never be used in a support core so the softest talalay that is used in a core for a “soft” mattress would be 28. In other words … a medium talalay under a soft talalay would be used in a “soft” mattress. A firm talalay under a soft talalay would be used in a “medium” mattress etc. These are all relative terms to describe the relative firmness of a mattress compared to other choices.

So while the overall description of the mattress would be correct (ie soft medium and firm versions) the actual foam used in the core itself wouldn’t use foam that was rated as soft, medium, or firm. Soft (meaning softer than other choices) in a support core is different from soft in a comfort layer. 28 ILD foam in a comfort layer for example would be too firm for most people and even 24 ILD soft in a comfort layer feels firm to many people, particfularly if it is a thinner layer which allows them to feel more of the foam underneath it.

So the most accurate “duplication” of the savvy rest would use similar thickness and softness of layers in the same material. To translate this into a different construction using different layer thicknesses is part of the “art” of mattress construction and has to take into account the different levels of compression of each layer which of course is not an exact science and also depends on the different shapes and sensitivities of each person.

With specific feedback on pressure relief, alignment, and the feeling of what you have … it will be easier to know if it is worth taking the chance of adding another 1" or 2 " to what you have (or even 3" if you can confirm this with testing the PLB or similar layering) or adjusting the firmness of the support layers or starting all over again with different layer thicknesses.

Phoenix

30

Hi Phoenix,

Trying PLB is not an option as there are no retailers anywhere near us that carry that brand.

My description of my wife’s side as “too soft” has to do with feeling the alignment was not good. Based on your latest reply and our feeling that we would like a thicker mattress, I wonder if changing the 2" comfort layer to a firmer layer and then using the 3" Rejuvenite would make any sense?

Thank you

31

Hi Glenn,

OK. If this is accurate then it would make sense. It would somewhat conflict with your previous feeling though that with the firmer (33) layer underneath it the mattress was too firm (there was no sinking in and cradling). I realize that the first comment may have been more about pressure relief and the second more about alignment but I would think that the difference between a 28 core and a 33 core would be slight and yet it seems that you are perceiving the difference as being much more in terms of either pressure relief and alignment.

So just for the sake of clarity … is the 28 core good for pressure relief (solves the issues you were previously talking about). You mentioned at first that you felt pain with the 33 core. Can you tell me what type of pain and where you felt it and is this gone when you sleep on your wife’s side with the 28 (I am assuming that your “too soft” description indicates that the pressure relief issues are gone?).

Basically the options with this mattress boil down to 3 choices … all of which have the same 2" 22 ILD comfort layer with 3 choices as to what the support layer underneath it can be. If one is too firm (the 33 ILD) and one is too soft (the 28 ILD) … then there is nothing in between these. Because of this I would want to make sure that alignment really was an issue (it would typically have a symptom of lower back muscle tension or pain). Otherwise you may end up making a change based on a subjective perception and be trying to fix a problem which didn’t really exist? So just to make sure … are you absolutely certain that you are out of alignment with the 28 ILD?

For reference … I am 6’5" and 195 lbs and my mattress has 3" of 22 ILD latex over a 28 ILD core. While the construction is quite different and my needs and preferences may be very different so the two are not really comparable … I wanted to give you a specific example of a 28 ILD core working very well for alignment.

If it is just a matter of wanting a thicker mattress … there there are probably better ways to do it than using latex. For example a very firm polyfoam will raise the height at a much lower cost than using latex.

If it really is a matter of either pressure relief, alignment, or feel … then I’m not sure if you have any other options than starting all over again with a different type of mattress that is closer to your prototype in terms of layer thickness.

Your comment about using firmer latex in the top 2" could work out well but I would hesitate to try a completely different mattress construction unless you knew for sure that a layering of that type would work well for you. It would be outside the range of materials that Ken uses in this mattress (he would need to cut a 2" layer from a firmer piece of latex) which I am guessing would involve some extra expenses and may not be exchangeable if it didn’t work out because it would be a custom cut piece (you would need to ask him of course). In theory though a 6" layer of firmer foam (say 38 ILD) over a 2" layer of medium foam (say 33 ILD) over a 3" layer of 19 ILD may well work out but you would end up with a lot of non returnable foam (the top 2 layers) if it didn’t.

Depending on a careful assessment of what would work best for you (and of course your wife with her separate feedback) … and given your feedback that a small change in the core firmness seems to be having such a big effect … you may only need a very thin layer on top to solve all your issues if neither the 28 or the 33 core works for you. In this case a 1", 1.5" or 2" layer of foam on top (either latex or memory foam or even polyfoam if you wanted to reduce the cost) may be all you need and toppers like this are widely available. The most important thing at this point though is to make sure you are very specific and accurate in your assessment of any issues and their cause before you begin making additions, exchanges, or starting all over again and end up “fixing” the wrong problem.

Phoenix

32

Hi Phoenix,

No, I cannot say for certain that alignment is lacking on my wife’s side. It just doesn’t feel right in that I felt I was rolling downhill from my side. I wonder what my feeling would be if I wasn’t next to the firmer side and getting the downhill feeling. When I say her side feels too soft, I don’t mean in terms of pressure relief, but rather a “concern” about alignment. Neither of us feel like we are getting the pressure relief we would like on either side.

The soreness I have at times is mostly in my hips, but some in my shoulder as well. I do have some arthritis in my neck which could be part of this. I have had some lower back soreness, but I do not necessarily attribute it to the mattress as I have had this off and on over the years.

My wife is having trouble with her arms falling asleep; again, we realize that this might be the case with any mattress. She had this problem with our old one and was hoping a new one would solve the problem. She really liked the pillow tops mattresses that we tried previously.

I didn’t realize that the 2" comfort layer was not available as a firmer layer. I e-mailed Ken to see what he might suggest for a thinner layer and had also asked him the same question about a firmer 2" layer prior to getting your reply.

Thank you

33

Hi Glenn,

This is what I was concerned about because fixing the problem of the differing sides would not fix any pressure relief or alignment issues. This would be a function of sleeping close to the middle of the mattress where the difference was more noticeable in addition to the weight differential between the two of you. This could also be aggravated by the thinner layer on top which would result in feeling any differences underneath more.

I personally wouldn’t be too concerned about alignment especially with latex unless you either had specific symptoms or it was visually obvious that part of you was sinking in too deeply. This is not as likely with the mattress that you have and is more often the case with thicker layers of soft foam on top.

This is quite helpful. Soreness in the hips and shoulder is usually a pressure relief issue rather than an alignment issue and usually indicates a comfort layer which is not quite thick or soft enough. In your case I would suspect the thickness. Using a good pillow which keeps your head and neck in good alignment can also make a big difference in shoulder and neck issues. Often a change in mattress can need change in pillow as well because the distance from your head to the mattress has changed.

This is also a pressure relief issue and could either be the mattress or the pillow as well. It would be helpful to know if it was increased when she slept on the firmer side. Any change or difference in either of your symptoms (lessening or increasing over the course of a couple of nights) from one side to the other would be helpful pointers. Because she is lighter than you … she may well benefit from a softer foam than would be ideal for you.

While pillowtops are only a construction method, because they typically contain soft polyfoam (the kind that forms body impressions) a preference for them usually indicates the need or preference for a thicker/softer comfort layer. All a pillowtop really is an additional thick layer of soft foam.

The more we go into this the more it seems to me that you may be closer than you think and perhaps only need a very thin layer of foam on top … probably the same or even a little softer than the 22 ILD that you have. You may both only need a little extra thickness and softness in the comfort layer (moving closer to a pillowtop but using more durable materials) as it seems that the issues both of you are facing are more closely connected with pressure than alignment. In this case your current 33 and 28 split may work well.

Any further feedback on the different degrees of the symptoms you may each feel on both sides would also be helpful. In other words which side is “worse” or “better” for each symptom. I would use 2 nights experience as well on each side because a single night may produce “symptoms” that are not necessarily connected to the mattress and could be just natural variations in sleeping comfort from night to night. Patterns are more helpful to get an accurate sense of what is happening.

This type of more specific feedback is very helpful in pointing to what the “best” next step may be.

Phoenix

34

Hi Phoenix,

I will check with my wife when she gets home from work tonight. In the meantime, another thought I had…would it make any sense to put the 2" layer under the core layers and then put the 3" topper over that?

After speaking with my wife…she did not find that my side made her arms any better or worse; she did feel it was too firm and was uncomfortable on it.

Thank you

35

Hi Glenn,

Yes this would make sense. It seems to me that the odds would be in your favor that this would work better for you. It would be slightly softer and thicker on top and over the same core (28 and 33) would likely be an improvement. Without specific testing though … it isn’t a guarantee that it would be “perfect”.

Some of the pros and cons of this that I would think about include …

  1. I would have 2" of foam on the bottom that would very slightly soften the support and wasn’t really performing any function that was needed.

  2. Toppers aren’t usually returnable so if this didn’t work out it would increase the “experimentation” expense.

  3. Buying a 3" topper is more expensive than buying a 1" or 2" topper to add to your mattress and would take advantage of what you already have (instead of putting it on the bottom) so the overall cost is lowered but the effect would be roughly the same (increasing the thickness and lowering the softness of your comfort layer).

So you would need to answer the question of … how certain am I that this will improve things enough and is the potential benefit worth the risk.

The issue of “rolling downhill” is part of the difference between latex and memory foam layers. Latex is very point elastic and pressure relieving but when you compress it it also has an effect on the area around the compression. In the same way … the area of compression goes downwards into the mattress in a cone shape so the layers underneath that are “off to the side” a bit can have an affect even though they are not directly under you. Also the closer to you the different support sides are (the thinner the upper layer is) … the more this difference can be felt. Memory foam tends to “rise up” around your body and the pressure transfers into the lower layers in a smaller area (in the same way that water rises up around you and doesn’t affect the area further away from your body as much).

If you are sleeping in the area that is being affected by a partner or in an area that is being affected by the softer layer underneath you more … then this can create the feeling you are describing … especially if there is a bigger weight differential or if the differential of the lower layers is larger. A larger mattress where people can sleep a little further apart or a thicker comfort layer can reduce this effect. So if you are close enough to someone else and “within” the area that their compression or the different lower layers are affecting you then the more you will feel this effect.

This seems to confirm that the issue for her as well is a pressure issue and the odds would also be in her favor that a thicker softer comfort layer would work better. Again without testing this specific construction there is no guarantee of this but the chances are it would “move” in the right direction.

Phoenix

36

Hi Phoenix,

Over time, is a 60/40 Talalay apt to get softer or firmer? How about the 3" Rejuvenite topper we purchased? I am between the medium and firm core for my side with the firm probably feeling a little better right now, but because it is so close, I am trying to look down the road.

Thank you, Glenn

37

Hi golson22m,

Over time (but a longer time than other materials) latex will tend to soften like other foams. Fibers on the other hand will tend to become firmer as they compress. SBR (synthetic latex) tends to become “stiffer” as it ages (because the cellular matrix forms more crosslinks) while NR (natural latex) tends to “lose” crosslinks over time so in a sense one “compensates” for the other. The Rejuvenite is also blended talalay so this will also soften over (a longer than average) time.

If you are choosing between 2 softness levels that seem to both be close to each other in terms of your needs and preferences … I would tend to go with the firmer over the softer.

Phoenix