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Discussions General Mattresses Questions
22

Hi Kristy93292.

Like all other components in a mattress, latex too comes in higher ILDs that would make it an ideal supportive layer within a mattress (Firm, Xfirm between 32 to 44 ILD would be a good application of it). The goal is to determine the best layering configuration for you … but from the description of your current setup, you are clearly missing the support (base layer) that would ensure that you have enough primary support to keep your spine in neutral alignment, the 3" of medium Dunlop would help with some of the secondary support needed but it would not be enough to provide adequate primary support. There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel” that may be useful as well as you go through this process.

I was not able to find your previous posting detailing this but generally, I’d keep in mind that the different layers in a mattress are usually designed in such a way that the complete mattress will have both supportive qualities and pressure relieving qualities. The core of the mattress which is the middle and bottom parts (usually innersprings, latex, or higher quality polyfoam) is the part that is primarily responsible for supporting the heavier parts of your body and keeping them from sinking in too far.

I can certainly understand your frustration … not having a supportive sleeping surface is usually the main reason for lower back pains and this is also the main difference between sinking in and sinking down I’ve been using in the hammock example. If you lie on a hammock your middle parts will sink “DOWN” further than the upper and lower parts of your body even though you are not sinking “IN” to the surface of the hammock at all. Sinking "IN is all about the depth or your pressure relieving cradle while sinking DOWN is all about whether one part is “traveling” too far relative to the others.

The first step is to try to work out a way to determine if the heavier parts of your body are sinking in too far and add an appropriate base layer. You did not mention your BMI and sleeping position which also are important in assuring that yoiu do not have too thick/soft comfort layer for your needs. Ultimately only you can feel what you feel on the mattress because we are all built differently and have different needs and preferences which makes it a bit of a trial and error process. This is all part of the 'art and science" of mattress design and is part of the reason why working with an “expert” can be so valuable. Your “job” is to describe the symptoms as accurately and specifically as you can … their role is to use their knowledge and experience to the best of their ability to help you decide on the types of changes that have the best odds of solving the issues you are facing with your DIY project.

Phoenix

23

Thank you for the helpful information.

24

Hello Phoenix and other experts.

First off, thanks for no-nonsense information provided on this site.
Secondly, thanks for putting up with questions that don’t always provide enough information to adequately answer. I’m going to try to not be that guy :).

Trying to hone in on a good next step after several failed mattress replacement attempts. Feeling a bit overwhelmed at all the [mis]information and marketing out there, so glad I’ve found TMU.

My summary: I’m 5’10", 165 lbs, wiiide shoulders, straight waist. Side sleeper who wishes I could sleep on stomach, has been told to sleep on back for health reasons, which has proven hard to retrain. Sciatica the last few years. Always thought of myself as a light, “picky” sleeper. Mattresses mostly feel either supportive but not comfortable (inadequate pressure point relief - toss and turn due to sore sides) or comfortable but not supportive enough (sore and tight back in the middle of the night).

My spouse: 5’4", 115 lbs, pretty wide hips. Side sleeper who would sleep on a cloud if she could. Likes a lot of cushion. Support doesn’t seem to have been a concern with mattresses we’ve tried.

History:
Our 11 year old Denver Mattress sleep number knock-off is finally done. We bought the cheaper model which didn’t have any pillow top, and then added a 3" memory foam topper from BedBathAndBeyond. Knowing the top layer is what tends to wear out first I felt like I had made a smart purchase. Great mattress for spouse. Not for me - the 3" foam topper was too thick and not dense enough to adequately support me. I tolerated years of back ache before I realized the best thing to do was cut that topper in half and not have one on my side. Looked silly, but an improvement. Also the head/foot zone of the air mattress could be made lower than the midsection by way of adjusting the air pressure, which helped me get the much-needed increased side section support.

What we have tried…over the last couple years now.

  • Simmons BeautyRest? from The Mattress Firm - seemed amazing in the store. Expensive for its performance, and didn’t seem to be holding up and not so comfortable overnight. At the store we seemed to have proper alignment. But I guess it wasn’t quite supportive or comfortable enough? in the end - although I don’t totally recall now.
  • Leesa - all-foam bed-in-a-box. I think it was not quite comfortable enough, a bit too firm.
  • Helix mattress - configurable bed in a box with microcoils - didn’t hold up long at all. At first it seemed adequately supportive and each side was going to work for each of us, but then it started feeling different as if it was “breaking in” - or was it “breaking down?” Didn’t matter, seemed to be losing its support.
  • Novacore foam mattress - just too firm for us, and also seemed to start breaking in/down quickly. Was a cheap gamble, but Costco has a great return policy.
  • Serta Hillgate 3 - guest bed I’m using at the moment, almost a year old, “luxury firm” pocket coil that supposedly has an inch or so of memory foam but clearly has some other mystery content. It is on the firm side for sure, supportive but makes my sides sore. Also, I can tell which part has broken in b/c you sleep a little more “in” than “on” those sections and yet don’t feel as supported as the less worn-in sections.

All this to say we are a bit gunshy right now but need a solution badly. We are aware of the need to match the pillow to the boyancy of the mattress for side-sleeping, and have pillows with adjustable quantity latext pellets to address that. I have learned a think pillow at my feet and between my legs can tricks to elevate legs I can do help mitigate the sciatica symptoms.

I believe where I go from here is trying out either 100% Dunlop latex or get lucky with hybrid coils with dunlop. Dunlop’s graduated densities and its support ramping-up as you compress-it seem to make sense. Also avoiding memory foam and low-quality mystery filler!

We recently went to a TMU-suggested store in Austin TX (Urban Mattress) to try out an all-latex model for PPP. Surprisingly the salesperson didn’t carry it, but instead showed me the Obasan 12" mattress. It seemed based on a brief lay down that a 100% latex, with the correct densities and configurations, might just be the winner. But $6500 is A crazy amount of non-refundable money throw down without having more assurance that it is not just comfy but supportive. We based our prior purchases on a lot of research and/or a store visit, and none of them really worked out.

One thing going for the Obasan is that the middle layer can be zoned - equal thirds head to foot. So for example the configuration of bottom 4" layer being medium, top 4" layer being soft, and the middle 4" layer being soft at the head zone, medium at the mid section zone, and firm at the foot zone, it felt comfortable but seemed my hips were maybe slightly low. When we pointed this out, salesperson said probably the best for me would be to swap the midsection and foot pieces to get my waist up just a hair. Seemed likely true, although he didn’t seem willing to swap them to confirm, and not sure if the transition between head section and waist is going to feel wierd going from soft to firm.

I’ve seen several refernences to other Canadian all latex mattresses, but I just haven’t come across a cost-effective (high value) option that is zoned and configurable quite like the Obasan. Ideally I’d find something that is half the price or less, same quality latex, and allowed you to swap zoned layers around to get it right. Basically I’m looking for affordable yet quality zoned DIY layers. Obasan, AFAICT, is unique in three ways:
1- zoned, reconfigurable layers
2- 4" layers rather than 3
3- can use a “soft” dunlop option

Regarding 1, it seems swappable density zones works similarly to how I used the air mattress height adjustability which I believe makes success more achievable then a one-size-fits-all approach. Are any other makers doing this?
Regarding 2, 4" seems to be getting pretty tall and makes me a bit concerned about getting proper support over the duration of a night of sleep? Any thoughts?
Regarding 3, TMU suggests manufacturers are concerned that soft dunlop won’t hold up. Still true?

The cozypure DIY seems reasonable although still not zoned, and their warranty for DIY being a third of their non-DIY makes me want to know their latex is quality. I’ll reach out to them about source and zoning. Maybe they will cut them if I ask and buy that extra piece of firm.

Knowing the quality of the latex side question is a whole second concern of mine. Funny I’ve never read anyone describe their latex as class B or class 2. Yet they probably are not all actually the same quality.

If anyone is curious, Obasan rates their latex ILD as follows:
soft: 20-22, medium 32-35, firm 38-42
and their densities as follows:
soft: 65k/sq m3
medium: 75 k/sq m3
firm 85 k/sq m3

25

Hello Zachbaker,

You give a lot of great info above and I’ll leave some bits for others to comment on but I can weigh in on the latex options.

Your three criteria are exactly the same conclusion I was coming to as I was reading your story.
1- zoned, reconfigurable layers
The zoned layer or rather cut and chopped layers, would let you create a similar feel to your Denver mattress that you liked.

2- 4" layers rather than 3
Yes, or 4 3" layers. Either way, a total of 12" sounds best for your situation. While some people with your weights might be comfortable on 6" of latex, sensitive sleepers need depth to play with the firmness of the layers.
If your wife can sleep on a cloud and you have wide shoulders, perhaps you need quite a bit of softness before the support, something like 6", rather than just 3" and maybe that top layer should be an extra soft, not just soft. If you are working with 3" layers, you then have the option to graduate the feel to the firmest density on the bottom, in other word, soft/soft/medium/firm rather than soft/soft/firm/firm. The firm/firm would definitely be an option and would provide more support, but would be felt more distinctly because the transition to the firm layer would be fairly noticeable.

3- can use a “soft” dunlop option
Dunlop processed latex makes a great top layer.

26

Hi Zachbaker,

I actually have an Obasan Acadia 3.0 queen mattress that I purchased 2 years ago. After sleeping on all-latex, my husband and I realized we missed our old traditional mattress and that our sleep preference is with inner spring, not latex. So, we decided to repurpose our mattress by purchasing pocketed coils as our core base. We no longer need the rest of the Obasan, and we are trying to figure out what to do with those layers. I am not sure where you are located, or if I am allowed to resell my Obasan components on this forum, but when I find out, I would be happy to sell either all layers except the comfort top layer, or the whole thing.

The Obasan 3.0 is configured as follows with ILD’s based on what Obasan has told me:

Soft ILD 20-22 Dunlop latex
Med ILD 32-35 Dunlop latex
Firm ILD 38-42 Dunlop latex

Top layer: 2" soft (1 queen size piece)
Mid layer: 4" Zoned with 2 each of soft, medium, firm (total of 6 pieces)
Base layer: 4" 1 side is firm, 1 side is medium (total of 2 pieces, one for each sleeper)

Each piece of latex is individually wrapped in a zippered cover made of organic cotton. A zippered organic cotton and wool case holds it all together.

27

Hi zachbaker,

Welcome to our mattress forum :).

Thank you for the great detail. it always makes it easy to add a few general comments and some thoughts. Thank you DIYnaturalbedding for chiming in … much appreciated! (DIY has a great level of expertise with many of these latex designs) @mattress4life thanks for adding your experience, always appreciated and helpful to hear from other consumers.

As an aside, I noticed that you only reference Dunlop, which is the latex process that is most widely produced, but it is good to know that the Talalay latex provides many of the same benefits, if not better benefits in some cases depending on preferences.

There are not many mattress companies using the type of latex zoning that Obason uses, is separating the layers and breaking up the density into 1/3’s. I can see why this would be more expensive. While I am not trying to talk you out of repurposing your Obassan… I would still try to find ways to sleep on other all latex mattresses made the traditional way, with 9, 10, or 12 inches of latex to see how it matches your personal needs and preferences. There are numerous latex experts listed in our mattress membership listing that have different layer configurations that may work out well for you.

DIY Natural bedding or any of our Mattress Expert members would be happy to share their many years of knowledge and experience. So let us know if you need any other info, or have any other questions.

Phoenix

28

I just purchased a 4 layer latex (13"), soft, med. med firm, med firm (split) latex botanical bliss from plush beds in the medium set up, and my wife loves her side but I’m a heavier person and need more support since I push right through the top soft layer. They are suggesting the 2nd med layer, be pulled and get an extra firm layer and make that my 3rd layer…I am concerned that having a extra firm on top of the med firm wouldnt make much sense? Shouldn’t I have the denser layer on the bottom? I am mainly a back sleeper and sometimes on my side…

29

Adding the extra firm in any position is a good idea. What iy does is bring more support. It sounds like your body is using your current set up as primarily comfort layers and is sinking through them too quickly. The extra firm would slow down your sinking and give your something to lean against. The medium then on the bottom would be fairly evenly compressed so that it would be supporting you more than if it were on top.

Even if you start with the extra firm on the bottom, with a zippered case, ypu can reareange your layers all you want. Bring the layers to the top that suit you best and bury the others. Remember to keep at least one softish layer on top of comfort followed by at least one firmer layer for support.

30

Hi rpk38tn,

Welcome to the forum :).

Congratulations on the new Plushbeds Botanical Bliss mattress! :lol: Glad to hear that your wife enjoys her medium-firm mattress build. I’d be interested to know if your side in the construction suggested by the manufacturer is now working out for your larger BMI split.

Expanding a bit on DIY Natural Bedding excellent advice (thank you @diynaturalbedding)

I am assuming that you were referring to the Botanical Bliss 12" model, which is 4-layer mattress 3", 3", 3 + 2" top layer. Did you purchase the split king or the Calking? I’d also be curious to know what your BMI is.

You are correct the majority of the time, mattress makers design the layers in a progressive construction, but it is not unheard of to have layers switched to get a “feel” that is slightly firmer(or plusher). Depending on the construction, sometimes is not a bad idea to do this, and in your case, you are not sacrificing durability or adding a weak link … you can always switch them depending on your needs and preferences as DIY suggests.

I find interesting that on the Plushbeds website which shows the Medium and the Medium firm “versions” or build differently than they advised (as in the picture below). Did they say why they did not offer to exchange the soft for the extra-firm?.. then you could have the med/med-firm/med-firm/x-firm as the design of the Medium Firm build shown in the picture? Did you discuss this with them? Do you feel this may be too firm?

Last but not least… did they let you know the ILD/density of each layer?
Arpico is a well-known latex manufacturer. With latex, there is a straight-line relationship between density & ILD/IFD. and as the Dunlop latex 3" layers are cut from 6" cores and the latex particles in Dunlop settle more in manufacturing, a 3" Dunlop layer that is cut from the bottom half of a 6" Dunlop core can be firmer than a 3" layer cut from the top half and the top would be softer than the bottom of the layer while with Talalay it’s more consistent from top to bottom. So as Dunlop is not as consistent from top to bottom it would be interesting if they happen to know the approx. densities of the different firmnesses. Dunlop ILD ratings are also often a “guess” and at best are only the midpoint of a range so depending on their precision level you have a few variables to work with.

Thanks again and if you have a chance let us know how the new arrangement is working out for you.

Phoenix.

31

I’m trying to better understand the concept of comfort and support layering, especially in regards to use of latex.

I get that a firmer support layer is important to ensure alignment and that a softer comfort layer provides the cushioning needed to allow heavier parts of the body to sink in.

What I don’t really grasp is the logic behind various recommendations for types of dunlop and layering.

It seems that there are two popular “builds” I see over and over again (so I am guessing that they work for most of the people most of the time):

  1. A three- layer along the lines of 3" firm, 3" medium, and 3" soft — often I see the recommendation for the two bottom layers (firm and medium) to be dunlop and the soft layer to be talalay. Then people wind up moving the layers around to achieve the right combination of comfort and support for their personal needs.

  2. A two-layer usually along the lines of 6" support and 2" comfort. Often I see a firm dunlop with either a soft dunlop comfort layer or a soft talalay comfort layer. Not as much room to maneuver the layers as with the three-layer build; seems like what people do to fine-tune is experiment with toppers.

Why create a two-layer versus a three-layer, however?

And why mix the talalay with the dunlop? What would the difference be if it was all talalay or all dunlop? Or, on a three layer, if the bottom layer only was a firm dunlop and the subsequent two layers were medium and soft talalay respectively?

32

Hi Turquoise.

Good questions! :wink:

When it comes to layering and type of foam or component being used in any particular mattress, the same general concepts apply to all different foams and where they are used in a mattress as comfort, transition, or support. This is more of an in-depth discussion and you’ can learn a little more about comfort (pressure-relief) and support, mattress primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support in post #2 here and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support”, “pressure relief”, “feel” and mattress design.

You are very observant … More individual layers would also give you more options to customize the “feel” and performance of the mattress either before or after a purchase which can be a benefit for some people that need to do some fine-tuning of their mattress. I’d add that there is much more to this than 2 vs 3 mattress layering when it comes to creating a new bed. There are many variables and criteria that manufacturers have to work with when designing new products some of which are more intangible in nature … such as “averages” of consumer’s personal perceptions or what we call PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences)

With the emerging e-commerce brands, the increasing trend is to allow for more flexibility in fine-tuning a mattress to cover a wider range of needs and preferences. The long terms success of any new model (that has a wide enough consumer reach) will depend on the manufacturer’s experience, knowledge, and “educated intuition”, on how well consumers fit into consumer “averages” and even on the accuracy of interpreting the consumer feedback with the mattress or similar designs. Nobody has a “crystal ball” but some manufacturers are better than others and can better predict the outcome within a range of consumer needs.

You may wish to look at this step by step process of finding your “ideal” mattress in Post #10 here that can dramatically increase your odds that has better quality and value than anything you are likely to find with a major brand or typical mass-market outlet.

Yes, the latex used in each all latex mattress can often be a combination of either Talalay or Dunlop in organic, natural, blended, or synthetic, each having a different feel and price and most likely sourced from different suppliers. This again is connected with both the mattress design and pricing. Dunlop has a different “feel” and performance than Talalay and is less lively or springy. Some people prefer it to Talalay in the comfort layer. The support layer(s) being further away from your body contributes less to the general “feel” of the mattress and using Dunlop in the support core of the mattress where it has less impact and would not subtract much from the feel of someone wanting Tallaly, Dunlop is also less expensive. You can see a Dunlop / Talalay comparison in post #7 here but your own experience is really the only way to know which one you prefer with any certainty. Some people would notice more of a difference than others with transition or support layers that used each material if the top layers were the same type of latex because you will “feel” more of the upper layers than the deeper layers … at least when you first lie on a mattress. To this, you can also add the cost/price factor than the efficacy, performance and feels of the material used.
There are some videos linked in post #3 here that show the different production processes and again there is more about the differences between Talalay and Dunlop in post #7 here

It is important that you look closely at those variables and decide what is most important to you.
Hope this clarifies some of the differences and helps you move forward with your mattress selection. Looking forward to hearing back on your decision
Phoenix

33

Hi,
Thanks for all the support and knowledge being shared on TMU. It’s easy to feel alone out there struggling to sleep each night on an uncomfortable bed and it can be helpful to know there are others trying to figure out the complexities of mattresses.

I have been on a long journey for a new comfortable bed (1.5 years) after my beloved Simmons Comforpedic Advanced Rest/Luxury Firm memory foam mattress died. I’ve embarked on DIY out of necessity, after failed attempts with store and online bought mattresses and a realization that I’m particularly sensitive to even the smallest changes in the bed. Customization seems to be the answer, but my hope that I could recreate my past bed as a starting point was dashed by not enough specs being shared by the company (I’ve copied previous intel from TMU below). Through experimentation, I’ve gotten closer and closer, but still am not quite there as I still have aches, pain, and nerve compression. I’ve settled on memory foam as that’s the feel that I’ve liked best in the past, I hate the pushiness of springs, and even latex feels too pushy. I enjoyed being held and sleeping “in” the bed, but can’t find the goldilocks sweet spot (in general, I’m either comfortably soft but sinking in too far in butt which hurts lo-back, or not sinking in but too firm/hard on butt/tail bones which hurts/bruises).

I’d love some guidance as I try to figure out where to turn for both comfort and transition layers next. I’m feel like I’m just collecting foam as they’re often not returnable!
Are there TMU trusted members in the US who sell memory foam layers? I’d love to speak with someone. It seems that most folks here focus on latex, which I’ve ruled out through testing.

Or are there types of stores where you can try out memory foam toppers/layers? It would be great to feel the layers first. Regular box stores don’t carry higher quality or density MF toppers. Purchasing online without guidance hasn’t been very successful, where density might be listed, but not the ILD.

In the meantime, I’ve been working with:
-comfort: 3 inches or so MF (trying various combos, such as 1.5 inch 3 lb from Costco or similar box store, 1 inch 4.5 lb from foamorder, 2 inch 5lb by MFS from Amazon)
-transition: 2 inch Dunlop latex and two 1 inch polyfoams labeled “16” or “23”
-core: 5 inch DuraFlex™ D30 Firm foam from foamorder

My past Comforpedic features: • 9.5" High • 9.5" CPA Zippered Bucket • 9.5" CPA Core • 1" 4.0 AirCool Memory Foam with TruTemp Gel • 1" Firm Comfort Foam • 2" 4.5 LB AirCool Memory Foam • 2" Independent Support Technology • 3.5" AirCool Transflexion Core• 1.65 LB 45 ILD AirCool Edge Support

Any thoughts appreciated! I’m at the phase where speaking with someone knowledgeable about memory foam diy construction would really help because I’m stumped and exhausted. Thank you!

34

Hi Mia12345

I very much agree with you… you‘ve clearly done your due diligence and research… While you may have enjoyed your “beloved Simmons Comforpedic”, you are correct that the major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta, tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors. Those lower quality material(s)/components used in their mattresses will tend to soften or break down prematurely which is why I’d avoid duplicating this mattress based on specs. While there are some more durable components being used there is little to no information about “2” Independent Support Technology", and the “3.5” AirCool Transflexion Core". The perimeter support of 1.65lbs is a much lower density than I would advise for an area of the mattress which is subject to greater mechanical stress. (see the guidelines here)

There’s nothing “wrong” with liking the feel of memory foam and with mixing memory foam and latex or any other materials because the type of materials that each person likes best in a mattress is really a matter of personal preference. A combination of memory foam on top of latex is a preference choice that some people like a lot but again you are correct that only your own experience will tell if it works well for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences). everything is a matter of tradeoffs even buying a lower density memory foam for the sake of either price or “feel” as long as you realize that you would be giving up durability and don’t “buy into” misleading comparisons. There is more about the different ways one mattress can match another one in post #9 here.

I don’t know of any stores that have a larger selection of toppers in your area but trying them “in vitro” may not be that helpful by itself. Every individual layer and component in a mattress or mattress/topper combo (including the cover, FR barrier, any quilting material, and of course all foam layers) will affect the feel and response of every other layer and component both above and below it and the mattress “as a whole”. In the end, the “in-home” feel would greatly depend on the mattress or DIY that you will place it on.

[quote]
Purchasing online without guidance hasn’t been very successful, where density might be listed, but not the ILD. …
Any thoughts appreciated! I’m at the phase where speaking with someone knowledgeable about memory foam diy construction would really help because I’m stumped and exhausted. [/quote]

[indent][quote]
• Comfort: 3" or so MF (trying various combos, such as
 1.5" 3 lb from Costco or similar box store,
 1" 4.5 lb from foamorder
 2" 5lb by MFS from Amazon
• transition: 2" Dunlop latex and two 1" polyfoams labeled “16” or “23”
• Core: 5" DuraFlex™ D30 Firm foam from foamorder[/quote][/indent]

From your description, you are a (12") of different foam combinations. I don’t see any red flag in terms of durability if you keep at around an inch or so of lower density MF in the comfort layer. I would phone Foamorder and explain to them your proposed configuration and the issue that you are still experiencing with it to ask for their advice. Again, you are on the right track and you seem to be in the fine-tuning phase of your DIY I would recommend a phone call, not an email, and going over details of potential configurations, as you can provide more accurate information in real-time and get a higher volume of information in a much shorter period of time. I’d still keep in mind that there are many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to chose somethings for you or “theorize at a distance” but you can get some more specific recommendations based on the data that you’ve accumulated. Many of our trusted members here have extended experience with and carry/manufacture good quality/value Memory Foam products. Even if you go the DIY route, they would not hesitate to guide you. You may wish to reach out to some of them and find if they carry something that may be a close match. At a quick glance here is a shortlist.

[indent]
GhostBed
Mattress To Go Magic Sleeper
Memory Foam Comfort
Nest Bedding
Sleep EZ Factory
Texas Mattress Makers
Oklahoma Mattress Company[/indent]

You’ve often mentioned that you are in the “princess on the pea” rage of sensitivity but with your thorough and methodical approach, I have no doubt that you will find the “sweet spot”. As you have experienced, it usually takes a bit of trial and error and a bit of time to get things just right.

I hope this gives you a few more avenues to explore. Please let us know how it goes when you have a chance.

Phoenix

35

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Phoenix. I wanted to report back on how this additional information helped me select a mattress.

My first latex mattress didn’t work out so well — although the two-layer dunlop configuration was considered “soft”, it was too firm for me and caused back and shoulder pain. Adding a 3" talalay topper just made me feel like I was lying on a (firm) bed of jello, so I wound up returning everything and going back to the drawing board.

I spent an entire weekend visiting ALL the mattress stores in my area. I went in with the idea of not deciding in advance what I wanted to try, but instead trying everything and seeing how it felt. I then ended the weekend comparing notes and seeing what jumped out at me.

Discounting the $8,000 Vispring mattress I loved ;-), I was surprised to see that my favorites, in terms of comfort, were latex. I was not expecting that after my mattress return. BUT, the difference was that, of the latex beds I tried, it was those made entirely of talalay that felt the best to me. The dunlop beds all required a wool mattress topper to feel comfortable. So the process recommended here on TMU of going out and testing mattresses for comfort definitely helped me figure out what worked and what didn’t — for me personally.

There were three mattresses I really liked — two were virtually identical in their configuration (Three 3" layers, medium/medium/soft) and the third differed only in having a much softer comfort layer. I called several of the trusted members and got recommendations for replicating the mattress I liked based on the ILDs I had obtained. I then ordered a mattress which I’ve been sleeping on now for almost 3 weeks.

I can’t tell you what a difference all talalay versus all dunlop or a dunlop/talalay mix made for me. The first night (after wrestling with unpacking and assembling the mattress for an hour and a half) I was in a lot of pain. But, I woke up the next morning pain-free! Not a single ache! It’s been very comfortable since — one or two nights were I wasn’t as comfortable, but that was usually attributable to my having overdone it physically during the day. Somebody’s got to do the yard work, after all!

I am so thrilled to have a mattress now that is not only supportive but really cushions my body. Especially when I’m laying on my back I can feel it cradling me — a wonderful sensation!

So thank you for this website and for the great steps to take to find a good mattress — and for continually stressing the value of experimentation and PPP — it really works!

36

Hi Phoenix,
Thanks again for the response! So far, I did get some advice from Foamorder, looked at the websites of everyone you suggested to see who carries MF layers, and am still planning to reach out to others.

As mentioned, I loved the feeling of sleeping “in” my previous bed and being held in place. But, this seems to go against current trend given that I see a lot of advertising for other qualities, like quicker response. In my testing, I like softness in the top comfort layers, but then am sinking right through and bottoming out on the transition layers. I haven’t found a MF layers that “hold” me as much as my old Comforpedic did. I’m wondering if a higher ILD MF is one item I’m lacking in my current build and could maybe be my second layer to help with this issue? Everything I have for comfort layers is either unlabeled, “soft,” or <11.

It’s also confusing that some MF sellers offer ILD while understanding that it’s hard to interpret ILD for something temperature-sensitive. So, it’s hard to tell how much stock to put into those ILD numbers online. And, in searching around, I’m not seeing many 4lbs+ and higher/mid-teens ILD MF layers for sale.

Regarding your comment about places to shop for MF layers or mattress/DIY experts to see in person near where I live, I also spend a good amount of time in Westchester, NY & NYC. So, getting mattress components or toppers there is very feasible, if you have favorite folks out that way.

As always, thanks again for being supportive and making a good night’s sleep seem a little less daunting.

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Hi Mia12345.

I am glad you reached out to Foamorder and other companies. and you are absolutely correct that Memory foam has very low resilience, has a more “in the mattress” feel to it. It is a matter of preference (even if it goes against the “current trend”) Yout other observations are also correct as over the course of the night the MF would change its feel and response with pressure, temperature, humidity, and length of time it is subject to compression forces. It can feel firm in some conditions or circumstances and soft under the different condition detailed in this article about the pros and cons of memory foam

I totally agree … measuring ILD accurately in visco-elastic memory foam is not that straight forward as it is with other foams. MFs ILDs can vary dramatically with the foam formulation by the foam’s rate sensitivity (recovery rate after compression), temperature sensitivity and humidity sensitivity. Sample conditions would need to be highly standardized. It’s safest to state that the memory foam commonly used for comfort layers in a mattress and toppers are all quite plush, and generally in the upper single-digit to the upper teen ILD range.

The relief of pressure that you are you are liking with memory foam is connected to both softness (ILD/IFD) and density because higher density foams can “melt” into shapes that more closely fit the body which means they distribute weight better and lower the pressure around pressure points. They can take more time to “melt” which means that with initial compression or with the movement they can feel much firmer. Also, density and plushness aren’t necessarily correlated with memory foam as they are with Latex. This is why companies like Tempurpedic refer to a 7 lb foam as most “conforming” even though a 4 lb foam is the “softest” (gives more with initial pressure). Which is why MF is a preferred material for many hospital applications or with highly sensitive people.

“Holding” has more to do with support and preventing you from bottoming out but MF lacks supportive qualities and has low progressive resistance as it is compressed because of its ability to keep softening under heat & pressure which may allow heavier parts of the body to sink more deeply into layers that use it. It would probably not make much difference in a 1" second layer and if anything for the reasons described earlier I’d be more tempted to go with a higher density of similar ILD (assuming that your are correctly aligned and you like the plushness)

I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you if this would help., but because of your particular spine curvature and your sensitivities, I would just be just guessing and probably adding one more layer to the pile. You have been doing great research and are quite “in touch” with your body so I’d go with your gut feeling about this.

Another thought that came to mind is some sort of zoning of the 2" transition layer under the tailbone area where you experience bottoming out…. but again, this needs to be done under some guidance. FloBeds and are one of TMU’s Experts in zoning so you may want to place a phone call as it may be more efficient.

Let us know what you decided and of course, any updates that you might have

Phoenix

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Hi Turquoise,

You’re very welcome … and thanks for the kind comments … I appreciate it.
Sorry, your post skipped my attention up to now when responding and moving some posts from here to another topic.

Congratulations on research well done and your perseverance. It is thrilling and most of all energizing when to get many nights of good sleep. :lol:

Thanks for taking the time to share such detailed and helpful comment
Phoenix

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Turquoise,
Could you describe in more detail what configuration you ended up with, and who built it? Also does it have a latex smell?

My husband is a big fan of our old all talalay latex mattress but I am tired of the latex smell (15 yrs later) so am looking to replace it.

Thanks!

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The mattress has three 3" layers, from bottom to top: medium/medium/soft talalay blend from Talalay Global (Radium is also available). The ILDs are Soft 19-20 and Medium 30-32. The mattress cover is 1" wool quilted to cotton so the total height is 10". It’s a SleepEZ Natural Latex mattress.

I didn’t notice a smell from the mattress itself; in fact the shredded latex pillows that came with the order seemed to have more of an odor than the mattress, maybe because the mattress is encased in the cotton/wool. I don’t mind the smell of latex, however, so I probably would have quickly discounted it if it was noticeable.

I can’t say enough good things about Sleep EZ – they are very customer service oriented and helpful, both before and after sale. I’m very pleased with the entire process and would recommend them to help answer questions you might have as well as consult on a particular configuration.

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Thanks Turquoise! Very helpful.