Yes, I think many people reading here on the site feel as if they have done so much research that thy deserve a PhD in mattresses after a while! B)
In most component systems, the layers are held together through the integrity of the mattress encasement surrounding the completed mattress, along with the coefficient of friction of the materials (latex itself tends t be quite “sticky”), and these layers are not glued. The benefit of such a system for most people is the ability to rearrange and exchange layers.
If you do want to create a finished product, you can purchase tufting needles, tufting twine and buttons from craft and upholstery shops, as well as some of the DIY mattress companies discussed here previously on the forum.
Hey Amym1,
Over hear at FloBeds, we always recommend a little on the firmer side for growing children, we would recommend either medium (28ild) over firm (32ild) or Firm (32) over x-firm (36). In our 9" select Latex Mattress, or in our Student Latex Mattress. Its good to keep a growing spine supported properly, so going with any softer, is not recommended.
SleepEZ in most cases will recommend a medium-firm sleep surface for the kiddos. Children need support when they sleep. As well as keeping the spine and bones aligned – a very important thing to bear in mind concerning their growth – supportive mattresses will reduce rolling, fidgeting and discomfort, allowing your child to sleep more soundly (every parent’s dream!). Babies and infants generally need firmer mattresses though, due to the speed and way in which their bones develop.
With that said, most kids will only need 6" of latex to achieve support. We normally recommend a 3" medium (30-32ILD) over 3" firm (36-38ILD) configuration. As your child becomes a teenager down the road, she/he may want to add some contour, which you can do by simply adding a topper.
Please let us know if there is anything else we can help with! Keep us posted, and good luck!
I have also done a fair amount for reading on this site and am beginning to think that the multilayer system makes the most sense. It seems that since the comfort layer is the first line of defense and one which would degrade first it would make sense that if you could simply replace that layer with a new one, that the system could sustain its self indefinitely if you were to able to replace the affected layer as needed.I am still trying to figure out the correct formula of Laytex layers for myself and girlfriend. I am 6’4" 175 lbs,BMI 21, hot sleeper, that likes a firmish mattress. I have a slim athletic built, like a basketball player. Lumbar gape is 2". My girlfriend is 5’8" 150 lbs, BMI 18, semi-athletic built like a swimmer and likes the firm support with a bit of sinking memory foam feel. Can anyone give me some guidance on ILB and thickness for a layer system?
I am glad that you did a fair amount of reading and that the site is helpful to you.
While you are correct that the upper layers in a mattress (the top 3" - 6" which are the most subject to wear and tear and contribute more to the overall “feel” of a mattress) and while I understand what you are trying to achieve, for those that may be reading this thread I’d make an adjustment to your "the first line of defense " comment because in reality the primary concern should be ensuring good spinal support and proper alignment (see post #4 here for more about primary support, secondary support, and pressure relief and how they are related) because any attempt to “fix” support layers that are too soft by adding layers on top will often only be partially or temporarily successful and would be more of a “band-aid” than a solution because the top layers can still “bend into” the softer layers below them and lead to alignment issues.
I agree with you that latex is a good comfort layer choice for its temperature regulation, supporting and conforming qualities … latex is also certainly a very durable material and at your BMIs I would not be too concerned about having to replace it too soon. (I’d expect at least a 10 years of use), but you are correct that there may be also other factors involved in the durability or useful life of a mattress outside of just the material itself (see post #4 here )
Once primary support is ensured then the suitability and durability of the comfort layer will tell how well you will sleep and for how long you will sleep well. Your long-term approach of considering a bed where you can easily replace the comfort layer is very common as a solution to both fine-tune for a certain feel and also for accommodating any changes over time. (As we age we also usually prefer something a little plusher)
Based on the information you provided it is not possible to predict how well you will do with any mattress suggestion that I or anyone may have for you. Both thickness and softness are dependent and there can be numerous combinations that can work for you. Also, you can also find different categories of “multilayered systems” such as polyfoam/latex combos, all latex, pocket coil latex and you’d first need to decide on the type that would be best for you and your girlfriend. Each mattress category can also include hundreds of different mattresses with a very wide range of different designs, different “feels”, different characteristics, and different firmness levels. Every individual layer and component in a mattress (including the cover, FR barrier, any quilting material, and of course all foam layers) will affect the feel and response of every other layer and component both above and below it and the mattress “as a whole” so each mattress category will generally include some mattresses that have a design that will be a good “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP and others that use the same type of materials and components and are in the same category and may be just as durable but have a different design or firmness level that may be completely unsuitable for you to sleep on … even if it uses the same general type of materials and components.
My first suggestion would be that you do some local testing which will give you a much better sense about the types of mattresses (see this article) and general firmness levels you tend to prefer which can help you narrow down your choices regardless of whether you end up purchasing locally or online. Then some guidance from a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer will usually result in a mattress choice that is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and will generally be “close enough” so that if any fine-tuning is necessary it would be relatively minor and involve different mattress pads, sheets, mattress protectors, or perhaps even a topper if a mattress is too firm (see post #4 here and post #10 here ).
Once you manage narrow down your research and have more specific questions then I or any of our Expert Members we’ll be happy to assist you.
[color=black]I’m looking for some feedback on a DIY mattress. I am trying to build my own Sapira by Leesa. I’ve got the specs of the mattress and have been able to match things fairly well but I’m stuck on one specific layer and would like some advice on how to replicate.
Here are the Sapira layers and where/what I’ve found to match them. Any help is appreciated. The first layer is what I cannot figure out. Also, I’ve bumped all the 1.5 inch thickness to 2 inch because the 1.5 thickness isn’t readily available and 1 inch seemed too thin.
1.5" of 3.75 lb high performance “latex like” polyfoam (3.6 pcf density 20-26 ifd) They are calling this Avena Foam - made by Carter - the image looks like convoluted (egg crate).
3)Pocket spring innerspring unit Quantum Edge from Leggett and Platt
Arizona Mattress 8 inches coil unit L&P zoned pocket coil $395
1" of 2 lb. poly foam on top and on the bottom of the innerspring unit.
Foam Factory 1" LUXR $31
I’m still undecided on a cover. Theirs is a poly/cotton blend and I’d like to have that or all cotton. A full zip and washable top is preferable. But this comes in at 13 inches and most covers only seem to go to 12.[/color]
Because of the uncertainty involved in “replicating a mattress” the risk of getting it just right is much higher… unless of course all the components, layers and design or your DIY “build” is an exact replica and matches in every way the mattress you have tested or slept on (in effect resulting is the same mattress). “Replicating” a mattress component by component in view of a DIY mattress based only on “specs” without the specific guidance of a manufacturer/retailer that is familiar with your reference mattress and materials is unreliable because in most cases:
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Consumers would tend to rely only on the ILD of the layers or other more basic specs which by themselves can be very misleading and inaccurate because of any design specific properties, response, or factors that can make a significant difference in how a mattress feels and performs.
Consumers don’t have access to all the information they would need about either the mattress they are using as a reference point or all the components they are gathering to make a meaningful comparison and even if they did (which is rare) most consumers wouldn’t have the knowledge or experience to be able to “translate” how the many seemingly small differences between two mattresses may either accumulate or offset each other and “feel” in real life.
Also sometimes what a consumer “thinks they need” is often different from “what they really need” and this is better done with the guidance of a knowledgeable and experienced online retailer or manufacturer will usually be more focused on “what they really need”. [/indent]
The “target” with these types of choices is generally how closely a consumer believes one mattress will match the one that they are building which is often very inaccurate, this is why I always suggest that those who take on a DIY mattress replication project work closely with a manufacturer who is familiar with all the components of the “blueprint” mattress .
Avena is a High Resiliency polyfoam which is high quality and durable material introduced by Carpenter in 2010 that has “latex like qualities”. It is more costly than conventional polyfoam but not as costly as many more premium foam materials such as higher quality memory foam or latex. You can read a bit more about Avena here. To find something similar in terms of quality and durability you may wish to check out the foam suppliers listed in the same thread in Post #4 here ( a few links were recently updated) with latex being the closest in feel, but you may wish to talk to each of the manufacturers you are considering purchasing the component from to see how closely they compare.
Arizona Premium Mattress (member of this site) has a cover that would fit your criteria and generally a large selection of mattress covers, bamboo, organic wool cover, organic cotton. The zipper is made with Teflon and zips around all four corners making it easy to assemble. Some models come in sizes from 6" to 15"
You may also wish to contact some of the manufacturer members below who make their own covers to see if they would be willing to adjust mattress size for you.
Latex Mattress Factory (member of this site) has a removable and washable 360-degree zipper cotton cover from 2" to 12" in thickness.
Memory Foam Comfort(member of this site…Canada) carries zippered and removable Tencel (eucalyptus), Bamboo, Teddy (terry cloth) or Wool quilted 100% organic cotton sizes 4-12".
Sleep EZ (member of this site) has Natural and Organic cotton & wool Zippered Mattress covers between 6" and 12" in thickness
Sleep On Latex (one of our members) has organic cotton covers sizes from 1 to 12" in thickness which has a zipper all around and allows for the top part to be removed and washed. They can also custom make them but it takes a little longer to ship.
Sleeping Organic (member of this site) has organic full zip off covers that can be custom made with or without wool.
It seems that you are in the latest stages of your “built” and hopefully some of the information listed above will be assistive with your DIY.
Thank you so much for your detailed reply. Of course, you are correct, in assuming that I’m looking to closely match the numerical ratings of the components of the Sapira and have no knowledge of each “part” other than basic information.
I suppose I didn’t realize that getting one foam with the same density and firmness rating may not be that similar in feel to a different foam with the same ratings. The learning curve for this is HUGE!!
I have to say that maybe I’m overestimating my knowledge and ability to take on this project. While my current mattress has GOT to go, and most anything would be an upgrade at this point, I’m worried of sinking over a thousand dollars into a project that fails. On the other hand, buying a $1,600 bed is really out of the question for me at this point so I’m unsure of how to move forward.
I’m not sure if it is really this complicated or I’m making it this complicated. When I’ve looked in mattress stores or online and been “matched” to a mattress from a manufacturer, I’ve been unhappy with the suggestions. Which is in part, why I’m choosing to DIY. I’m a side sleeper, and 140lbs so everyone wants to put me in a softer mattress. I hate them! A lot of people complain the Sapira is too firm, but for me it’s perfect at it’s firmness of 6 -6.5 on the scale.
At the end of the day - what I’m looking to build is a 6 to 6.5 firmness rating that has the bounce and support of latex and no sink of memory foam. I’ve had foam toppers and an all foam mattress and I dislike them. I suppose I’m going to re-evaluate my material choices based on your feedback.
We are now offering Do it yourself Mattresses. For cores and comfort layers you can choose from 2lb HD foam (high density) 2.75lb HR foam (high resilience) 4lb & 5lb memory foam and organic dunlop latex. For the mattress covers we offer the top zip covers for easy access to all the loose layers, and are available in Bamboo, Tencel (eucalyptus), Teddy (velour terry) or wool quilted 100% organic cotton.
A DIY can be a great way to go and can certainly represent tremendous value and also has the ability to closely “duplicate” the feel of many if not most of the commercial mattresses that are sold in the “bricks and mortar” stores provided that there is appropriate knowledge behind the build, some field-testing and … more reliably … the guidance of an experienced manufacturer/retailer.
I understand your frustration… while the level of knowledge of the staff in many outlets may vary, I’d say that generally sales reps of large chain stores or larger national brands have a level of knowledge that it is usually restricted to what they have been told or taught about how to sell the specific mattresses they carry and have been given some very general guidelines about matching sleeping positions with levels of comfort. This type of advice can do more harm than good and is the opposite of what I mean by advice coming from an experienced and knowledgeable retailer/manufacturer that has consumer’s interests at heart. This is why it is so important that consumers learn to discriminate between marketing people and the real mattress people who are manufacturers and retailers that give consumers facts, better information, better service, advice, and finally better value. Knowing who they are and where to find them is just as important as knowing what should be inside your perfect mattress.
I wouldn’t use or trust any kind of firmness rating or “theory” as anything more than a general guideline that is subject to change based on your own unique preferences and circumstances. There is no such thing as firmness scale and the best a scale can do is to rate mattresses made by the same manufacturer against each other and create an internal firmness rating scale (which most retailers/manufacturers do) to help the shopper compare models to each other in terms of firmness. This is to say that there no “standard” definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. As you’ve experienced different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science. In other words … the only reliable way to know whether a mattress will be “firm enough” or “soft enough” for you will be based on your own careful testing or your own personal experience.
All in all, you seem to be heading in a good direction. You’ve determined the type of mattress and feel you prefer according to your particular needs which is a good starting point. Many people go the DIY route I’ve seen you contacted one of the manufacturers who has a great deal of experience in helping DIY customers. Generally, there are two ways to make effective initial choices for the design and feel of a mattress that is the best match for you. One is with your own careful and objective testing and the other would be through more detailed conversations on the phone with a knowledgeable manufacturer/retailer where you can provide them with more information that can help them use “averages” and your own past experiences as a way to help you make the best choice.
Thanks for mentioning the new DIY offerings, especially for the Canadian market that has fewer options available, we’ll make sure to update MFC’s business profile on TMU to reflect this.
Hello all. Like many others here I am new to latex and so I, too, really appreciate all the knowledge shared here!
I am starting my own DIY build. I have trouble evaluating a mattress in a store so I am taking Phoenix’s “Option 3” approach and starting from scratch despite the risks and my lack of experience. I am 38, male, 6’1", 205 lbs and have lower back pain in the morning. 60-70% side-sleeper, 30-40% back-sleeper.
For flexibility in zoning and switching layers I’m using 2" layers instead of 3". Based on other posts this might mean softer “layer interaction” but Sleep On Latex said it should still work. I ordered 1" of 20 ILD (SOL), 2" of 30 ILD (SOL), 2" 36 ILD (AzPM) and 2" of 44 ILD (SOL), all natural Dunlop. “Springy” doesn’t sound good to me but I might try Talalay later if needed.
First I plan to try various un-zoned combinations of thicknesses by doubling-up certain layers. I’ll then buy the additional layer needed and/or exchange one (Sleep on Latex allows one return/exchange). However, even if I find a pretty good combination I expect to experiment with zoning since I can always undo it (albeit with cuts through the layers).
I am including a diagram of some likely zoning combinations to test. I tried to follow Phoenix’s guideline of solving support issues (lumbar in my case) with lower layers while solving pressure point issues (shoulder in my case) with upper layers. The red and orange lines are my actual side and back profiles traced from pictures while standing and stretched to exact scale.
I’m also trying to avoid extra costs so I have cannibalized the lower layers of the foot of the mattress. Plus, if I end up with a 2" soft layer then I might try firming up the head to gain material for the shoulder zone, and since I have trouble using a thick enough pillow anyway.
Your approach to designing your own DIY is certainly very creative and you have some innovative ideas with which would be probably better served in a product development environment. Thanks for taking the time to create the graphics that go with your DIY… Every great idea was born as in response to a certain need.
Because there are so many variables and personal and subjective perceptions the right answers to your questions would come from your own testing and from the way your body will respond and interact with each of the layouts over a long enough period of time. I’d certainly continue in the same scientific manner you’ve started and perhaps keep in mind a few things while you go through the testing period.
I’d make sure to change only one variable at a time and to keep a record your observations and findings but also give the change enough time for the real effects to “settle” in before moving to the next build.
Assess each of the layout designs for more than a week or two before you decide if it is a good enough fit… you’d need to give your body a chance to adapt to the new sleeping surface and unlearn and let go of any “postural fix” that the body trained itself to “learn” in coping with any postural stress before returning to a state of “normality”
Keep some notes of your experiments with both quantitative and qualitative data to help testing comparisons . (things like … how long it takes you to fall asleep … duration of your sleep)
It would be also helpful if you’d have some type of monitoring device that records your movement during the night .
Although any qualitative type of assessment is more inaccurate some good indicators would be how well and energetic you feel in the morning and so on and the level of pain on a scale of 1-10
Regarding your pains in the morning especially if they are “entrenched” or chronic I’d keep in mind that you’d need much longer adjustment periods when you make any changes and that some gentle coaching of the body, tissues, and joints to destress and relax. There is a good article by Paul Ingraham about some causes of back pains here and you may also want to check out some interesting facts related to body alignment here and here.
A few general thoughts about your designs:
While propping up the lumbar area with a firmer zoning for added support might work well in some cases, designs C and E would probably have the least chance of success even if the combination was just right to fill in the lumbar area gap… the apex of the firm “pyramid” under your lumbar would place your body on a sort of fulcrum and any small shifts that come with normal repositioning during the course of the night will throw off this arrangement. We commonly reposition between 20 to 40 times (even if people don’t often recall it) and this type of design could “lock” you in a certain position that is most likely difficult to maintain for too long. Whether awake or asleep the body is always in motion and both minute oscillatory and larger movements occur in all body parts. There is an analogy in the comfort section of the basic functions of a mattress article here that talks about this in more detail
I won’t be able to tell how much thickness would be enough to relieve your shoulder pressure points but the chances are that your shoulders would go right through the 1" of 20 ILD to the 4" of 30 ILD which could be a bit too firm for a (60-70%) side-sleeper…. But again, this depends on your preferences, needs and body shape. I’d say that it’s worth experimenting with a little more plushness for your shoulder pressure points.
This is a good starting point that would allow you to collect enough data points before “cannibalizing” more of the layers It looks like fun and it’ll be very interesting if you could document the results of your testing and share it with us. You certainly have many layers to play with to find a good combination that works well for you.
Soon after the first hour of testing I started to develop a fairly bad allergic reaction to the latex. I guess I’m one of the lucky 1%-8% with a latex allergy. After reading posts here and elsewhere it seems the general consensus is that latex can still be safe to use in many cases but I’m a little nervous about it given the short exposure time, the fairly bad reaction (which stretched from my finger to my back on the side I was laying on), and the fact that it was covered by two sheets (although no ticking/protector/cover). However, it’s also possible that I might have rested my arm directly on the latex for a brief period while doubling-up layers and only covering the doubled-up part with the sheets.
I’m now weighing options between (A) pressing on and substituting memory foam or high performance polyfoam as the top layer, combined with a cover/ticking plus an additional protector or two, or (B) scrapping all the latex and starting over with high-performance polyfoam throughout (or high resilience, if these two are different).
So, I’m wondering if anybody has had similar experiences or any general thoughts on how to proceed. Also, is Option B even possible as a DIY route (I can’t seem to find individual layers using HD/HR/HP foam so readily like latex) or would I have to settle for an “un-zonable” whole mattress?
I am sorry that you seem to be one of the “lucky 1%-8% with a latex allergy”
Because the latex used in mattresses is vulcanized, it is quite unusual that the first encounter with an allergic reaction to latex would occur without any other previous warning or signs when in contact with other product containing latex … so before deciding on your next step re your mattress I’d certainly make sure to have the allergy confirmed and evaluated by a healthcare professional to ascertain completely what you may be reacting to, as unless you’ve had a previous positive latex diagnosis it could be something other than latex, including some of the chemicals used to make latex. Allergic contact dermatitis (thanks for providing the image of the affected area) can be clinically diagnosed by a licensed independent healthcare professional that would look at your medical history, along with a physical exam, and possibly patch skin testing to the offending agent.
Attached below are some of the Pdfs provided by the Latex Allergy Resources.Org on their website (right now their site seems to be unreachable) which describe the differences between the sensitivities (and allergy) that can happen with latex.
Thanks, Phoenix. I’m on a HDHP and it appears the cost of the office visit(s) and tests might exceed the cost of the mattress. Plus, whether it is the latex or the chemicals, or even if it seemed to be a random coincidence, I think I would still hesitate. The only similar reaction I can remember was discovering my penicillin allergy as a child.
I found a TMU discussion on the limited number of HR polyfoam vendors so I think I’m now going to order HR layers and run the same plan. You mentioned in that thread that Foam Online appears reputable and I agree they seem transparent in their stats, which include a good support factor of 2.5. I’ll probably start with 2" layers of 20, 30, 40, and 50 ILD (densities below provided by phone). Either the ILDs seem a little higher per firmness than latex or Foam Online’s might be slightly skewed to fit into their ILD table, but I can add a final layer wherever necessary in the stack.
15 ILD, 2.8lb, Very Soft
20 ILD, 2.8lb, Med Soft
30 ILD, 2.8lb, Medium
40 ILD, 2.8lb, Med Firm
50 ILD, 3.0lb, Firm
70 ILD, 3.0lb, Extra Firm
Also, I’ve read a lot of reviews on T&N mattresses, which are mostly very positive but the negative ones complain of the support breaking down after a year or so. TMU mentions 1.8lb HD foam is not very durable so I guess this might be the reason. I’m hoping the 2.8lb-3.0lb HR foam will avoid this, and Foam Online claims 3X longer longevity over the 1.9lb HD that they also sell (12 years vs 4 years).
Thanks again for all the info. I’ll still report results as planned, and hopefully this will still be useful to others regardless of which material they use.
How do I create a supportive mattress out of latex ? I tend to like firm support with a little cushy top. I am so frustrated i went to sears and found a firm beautyrest innersprig mattress that felt really good which tempted me to throw in the towel. I currently have 3" dunlop (30ILD) & 2" talalay (19ILD) to work with and can send both back or find another way to get badly needed support(Been using conv foam and memory foam to give some thickness so not feeling the boards) . I am more than willing to toss the foam once better option given. It has been suggested to try 24ild, but wouldn’t that keep it on softer end? Also was suggested hybrid or all latex mattress. It seems I almost have an all latex ,just missing the suppotiveness to get rid of lower back pain. My hips drop down so alignment is off. I have posted before nut don’t think I was very clear with what I was asking. Thanks
Like all other components in a mattress, latex too comes in higher ILDs that would make it an ideal supportive layer within a mattress (Firm, Xfirm between 32 to 44 ILD would be a good application of it). The goal is to determine the best layering configuration for you … but from the description of your current setup, you are clearly missing the support (base layer) that would ensure that you have enough primary support to keep your spine in neutral alignment, the 3" of medium Dunlop would help with some of the secondary support needed but it would not be enough to provide adequate primary support. There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel” that may be useful as well as you go through this process.
I was not able to find your previous posting detailing this but generally, I’d keep in mind that the different layers in a mattress are usually designed in such a way that the complete mattress will have both supportive qualities and pressure relieving qualities. The core of the mattress which is the middle and bottom parts (usually innersprings, latex, or higher quality polyfoam) is the part that is primarily responsible for supporting the heavier parts of your body and keeping them from sinking in too far.
I can certainly understand your frustration … not having a supportive sleeping surface is usually the main reason for lower back pains and this is also the main difference between sinking in and sinking down I’ve been using in the hammock example. If you lie on a hammock your middle parts will sink “DOWN” further than the upper and lower parts of your body even though you are not sinking “IN” to the surface of the hammock at all. Sinking "IN is all about the depth or your pressure relieving cradle while sinking DOWN is all about whether one part is “traveling” too far relative to the others.
The first step is to try to work out a way to determine if the heavier parts of your body are sinking in too far and add an appropriate base layer. You did not mention your BMI and sleeping position which also are important in assuring that yoiu do not have too thick/soft comfort layer for your needs. Ultimately only you can feel what you feel on the mattress because we are all built differently and have different needs and preferences which makes it a bit of a trial and error process. This is all part of the 'art and science" of mattress design and is part of the reason why working with an “expert” can be so valuable. Your “job” is to describe the symptoms as accurately and specifically as you can … their role is to use their knowledge and experience to the best of their ability to help you decide on the types of changes that have the best odds of solving the issues you are facing with your DIY project.
