Mattress comfort layers - latex

Mattress Talk General Mattresses Questions
41

Hi - I think from what I read about posting new questions this thread seems like an ok place to start mine but if I’m hijacking I apologize!

I’ll TRY to be concise but I think the backstory is important for getting any guidance. Sorry if it’s too much!

My husband (5’10, 185 lbs, 26.5 BMI) and I (5’5", 110 lbs, 18.3 BMI) have had (and loved) a king-sized tempurpedic for 15 years. I didn’t have any idea it was that old until I started having leg and hip discomfort in my sleep recently.

When that started I realized the top memory foam layer was pretty mashed. Each of us had a little furrow we were sleeping in. I didn’t think that was necessarily a bad thing - I liked my furrow! When the discomfort started to be a nightly thing I first thought it must be from pressure on my hip but after doing research here (lots of great info here!) and elsewhere I think it’s more likely misalignment from my pelvis sinking too low. I had that same sensation years ago sleeping for a couple of weeks on a soft, soft sofa.

I thought we’d just get another tempurpedic since we had really enjoyed it and at 15 years I think we more than got our money’s worth. (No indentations show when we’re not on it so the warranty wouldn’t apply). Then I saw the price point they’re selling tempurpedics at now and it made me start looking at other options and I got interested in latex.

As an experiment we turned our current mattress over. The bottom layer of our tempurpedic is a very firm foam (polyfoam?) but it has a little give and we were able to sleep on it for a few nights. Although the firmness wasn’t especially comfortable it wasn’t HORRIBLE and the pain in my legs/hip went away. I think that confirmed that discomfort’s from sagging down into the old memory foam. I did feel pressure-point discomfort on my hips and had to switch from side to side all night long but the other more unpleasant feeling was gone.

I thought we might be able to get away with just ordering a latex topper for the upside-down tempurpedic. So after reading a lot of info here I went with a 3" natural talalay in soft from Sleep EZ. (I believe their soft is 19-21 ILD.)

We got it this week and have had only 2 nights on it. When laying on it it’s very comfortable and my husband is fine. But I think I’m sinking in too much. It almost feels the same or softer than the memory foam felt. I haven’t had the same pain at this point but my legs definitely feel a little something. I don’t know if it’s my imagination since I’m obsessing over how it feels. So I plan to keep trying it for a while longer and maybe I’ll get used to it. I do tend to be the princess and the pea-ish so I’m worried that I’m never going to be able to find something perfect. Although the tempurpedic worked great for me so maybe we’ll end up ultimately getting another one – but after learning more about them I’d rather not.

As far as options I thought I’d ask now for any thoughts you might have if I don’t get used to it. Mailing it back to Arizona (we’re in Delaware) would be very expensive. I wondered if it continues to be ‘not perfect’ what the best bet is. Exchange it for something firmer? That seems like we’d just be just rolling the dice again and have no real idea how firm to go. And ordering and sending back is way too expensive to do more than once.

Or I wondered if putting a mattress pad on it – somewhat thick – might reduce the sinking-in aspect of the latex. Possibly a wool one? Although a good king size mattress pad isn’t cheap either so I don’t want to keep spending money especially on something non-returnable.

From reading about people designing beds it seems like a 3" soft talalay layer on top isn’t unheard of. And since I’m somewhat on the lighter end of the spectrum it doesn’t seem like I’d be sinking in so much that’s I’d be out of alignment more than other people who have a soft top layer of latex and no complaints. I’m really puzzled at this point. I thought for sure the 3" topper was going to be the perfect solution.

Does anyone having any thoughts? Thank you in advance! And thank you also, Phoenix, for all of the amazing work you’ve done on this forum. It’s really an incredible resource.

42

Hi sparky.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

Thank you for all the background information you provided which can certainly make it simpler to offer input and also thanks for your kind comments … I appreciate it!

It’s always nice when people coming here go through a few of the mattress basics and track down the possible cause of the “symptoms” they are experiencing … what you’ve described is certainly typical for the aging and breakdown of foams within a mattress which usually leads to sagging, postural issues, and the type of pains that you are describing.

This is certainly a creative approach that can buy you sometime before needing to replace your current mattress. You did not mention this but I’m assuming that you’ve already checked the support system under your bed to rule out any bending or sagging under the weight of the mattress and the people sleeping on it. Generally, foams wear out from the top down as the upper layers of a mattress are subject to more compression than the lower layers. While the bottom polyfoam (Yes! to your “?” :)) layer of the mattress would be in better shape than the top comfort layers I’d keep in mind that the Base layer(s) in all the Tempur collections from more than a decade ago used AirFlow System of convoluted foam which in theory helps the layers to breathe but in practice with a 15 year old mattress even if you get the comfort/support just right for you …. the flipping of your mattress may somehow compromise the structural and support integrity you need for proper alignment. The new “configuration” with the firm 4" (which they used for many of their beds at the time) on top of the “mushed” memory foam can contribute to collapsing and bending to a certain extent of the poly layer into the “furrow” created by the foam breakdown of the comfort layers. (The degree depends on many factors such as the polyfoam thickness and age, convolution dimensions: pinnacle base thickness and height, IFD and of course density)

I don’t know which Tempur model you own but it would be interesting to open the zipper and see if the comfort layer can be removed and replaced with the 3" of latex from Sleep EZ … this way you’ll get a few more data points but I’d certainly give the now new set up a little longer to allow your body to go through the adjustment period before you decide the type of changes you may need based on your body’s feedback.

You are very light which means that depending on your primary sleeping position you won’t sink in as far into a foam material as people who are heavier and layer thickness also plays a role in the design of a sleeping system that is the most suitable for you. You may need to adjust the “standard” layer thickness -/+ an inch or so to sink in just enough to relieve pressure without allowing the heavier hips to sink in too far. Only working with softness options instead of thickness options may not be enough for some people who are either more sensitive, smaller (where changes can have a bigger proportional effect relative to the body) or have a body type and weight distribution that is outside the “averages”. You can read more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here but this depends more on the specific construction and combination of materials in the mattress and on how well your testing or personal experience indicates the mattress “as a whole” matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) than it does on just the thickness itself.

The balance between “allowing” the shoulders and hips to sink in enough to relieve pressure and at the same time “stopping” the pelvis from sinking in too far and affecting spinal alignment is part of the art and science of all mattress construction this is why I’d suggest that you work closely with Sleep EZ as they have an excellent track record of finding great “out-of-the box solutions” that involve using their products in combination with other products and making recommendations for any particular needs. As you can see this can get quite complex but again the three specifications of a foam material that control most of the pressure relief (along with layer thickness) are ILD/IFD, compression modulus, and point elasticity (and temperature sensitivity with memory foam) which together with the thickness of the softer layers create the pressure relieving “cradle” and needs to be balanced against it’s “opposite” which is support and alignment.

I’m looking forward to finding out what a few more nights of sleep on the new set up will bring … and of course any additional comments or questions you may have along the way that I or any of the Expert members of the site can help with.

Phoenix

43

Thank you very much for your reply, Phoenix.

I see your point about the flipped mattress possibly having sagging issues from the polyfoam now collapsing into the ‘spaces’ we’ve created in the memory foam - the mushed furrows. So for that reason I do only consider this a short-term fix and don’t want to spend too much money on the experiment before we give up and try to find a new mattress.

I’ll definitely give it more time for my body (and mind!) to adjust but last night I slept better than the previous nights. I’m hopeful.

If I decide to try to make any change I’ll check with Sleep EZ for their recommendation. When I talked to them originally they thought 3" was right because of the very firm surface it would be on. I guess 2" would allow us (more so my heavier husband I assume) to bottom out. So probably it would be an exchange for a firmer density – but maybe there are other options that they’d suggest.

In the meantime can you give me your opinion on the idea of a mattress pad if I want to dampen some of the squishiness of the latex rather than switching to a firmer density? I was looking at posts on wool fleece versions but maybe that really defeats the purpose of the latex or cancels out too much of its plushness. And once it compresses it might even seem too firm at pressure points?

Thank you again for your very valuable guidance!

44

Hi sparky.

Thanks for your latest update …. I am glad to hear that your sleep is improving :slight_smile:

You are correct that a mattress pad or even a tighter protector …. especially a wool one that will compress a bit more with use can have the effect you are seeking. Most of the wool pads and protectors have stretchy corners or sides so they won’t bunch up while sleeping, but you can look for a tight pad/protector that wraps around all sides of your mattress to add a bit of extra stiffness. Thicker wool layers that are initially soft (and quite frankly nicer) will tend to compress and affect the feel of the layers underneath them over time more than thin ones .… Post #10 here has more information about mattress pads, protectors and the difference between them. Halfway through post #89 here there’s more about the pros and cons of different types of mattress protectors for those who want (or don’t) to affect the feel and performance of their mattress. You may wish to check out some of our members here who have wool pads/protectors and can also have a look at different types of mattress protectors here and here.

I hope this is helpful and I’m looking forward to any ongoing updates you have the chance to share.

Phoenix

45

When one refers to blended talalay latex, what does that actually mean?

David

46

Hello David,

Thank you for visiting The Mattress Underground. The term “Blended” when is comes to latex foam (this applies to bot the Talalay and Dunlop process for making latex foam) has to do with the make up of the latex formula used to make the latex foam. Blended means that the latex used in the latex foam is a blend of natural and synthetic latex.
There are 2 types of the raw latex material component, natural latex which is harvested from the rubber tree (Hevea brasiliensis) and synthetic latex which is man-made, synthesized from petroleum. The core component of latex is a material compound called isoprene. Natural latex uses the naturally occurring organic compound produced in the rubber tree. Synthetic latex uses a man-made version of the isoprene compound. Blended latex is a mixture of the two types of latex. Blended latex is the most widely used formula type as it is seen to provide the benefits of each type of latex, specifically being more durable and more consistent while providing high levels of comfort and support.

TMU Admin

47

So I’ve decided on a latex mattress. However, I’m basically down to the Sleep on Latex, Spindle or Sleep EZ. The sleep on latex is the cheapest, and I can’t really tell what I’m giving up. The others are around $500 more. Is there something I’m missing? I see they are all listed as trusted members so it seems like I’m choosing between good/good/good, just want to make sure I’m not missing out on anything by spending more.

48

Hello again Phoenix,
I’ve taken some time to review all the suggested links from your previous reply, and we’ve also logged another month of sleep on our “new” latex mattress from Sleep Ez.
Our split king is 3 layers of 3" latex as follows:
Bottom layer both sides: firm Dunlop
Middle layer my side: medium Talalay, hubby has medium Dunlop
Top layer both sides: soft Talalay
The mattress sits on a plywood base in our bed frame, has a 1" wool cover and an additional quilted mattress pad I added for extra top cushioning.
After 60 days sleep on my configuration, I feel that I could be sinking too far into my middle layer of Medium Tallalay and wonder if changing to a medium Dunlop layer would make any difference. Would this be where the difference in ILDs between medium Dunlop and Talalay becomes significant?
My primary concern is whether the middle medium talalay layer on my side is sufficient support for a “generous” side sleeper, and would there be significant difference in changing it to a medium Dunlop layer?
I prefer a “sink in” feel for comfort, so have not really considered changing my top layer of soft Tallalay, but do have the option of changing to a Dunlop Soft if that would be more helpful than changing the middle layer.
We have 30 days remaining in our exchange window.
Recently we decided to swivel the mattress around so I could test hubby’s side with the medium Dunlop middle layer and although it’s been only a week, my perception is a firmer feel of support. Is this my imagination, or is there enough difference between the specs for medium Dunlop and medium Talalay to be noticeable? I know the composition is different, but do the numbers indicate a significant variance? Do different retailers have different specs for their Dunlop and talalay or is this a standard industry specification?
Once again, I appreciate the time it takes for you to digest and respond to all the individual queries you receive.Your specific replies are very helpful in making (and fine tuning) the numerous decisions in the search for perfect rest.

49

Hi Q8canuck.

Glad to hear that you “logged another month of sleep on your new” mattress with no major setbacks. It seems that your hubby still enjoys his well-crafted side :slight_smile: but you still have some doubts as to your layering appropriateness.

Talalay will weigh less than Dunlop per cubic foot of material because it has more air in it and the same ILD Dunlop is denser than Talalay. This is the basis for the angel food cake vs the pound cake analogy on our site. It will certainly feel a bit more supportive to most people … with some more sensitive individuals reporting that this made just the right amount of difference to achieve the ideal softens/firmness for them, but of course, this is not an exact science because this is dependent on so many personal and other interrelated variables. The best way to ensure that this would work out for you is (…as you did) to “borrow” the medium Dunlop from your hubby’s side and test it for long enough to ensure that the signals that your body sends you are consistent before you decide on the new layer exchange. You do not seem to experience pains at this time but I always tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to support as a primary concern so it is nice to see that you are reassessing the support issue especially as you also added a pad…but I’d also keep in mind that sometimes our bodies take a little longer to “accept” a change and get used to it, but once again only you can be the judge of this.

There is no real industry standard as it comes to ILDs for the different types of latex, from different sources, which may also use different ways of testing it. When it comes to ILDs your own experience is much more meaningful than the ILD numbers (which by themselves can act just as pointers because other specs such as the thickness of the layer, compression modulus, point elasticity and more are just as important to how soft or firm a mattress feels than ILD specs alone). There is more about this in post #2 here and there is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here All in all it is partly science and partly an art to “imagine” and predict how the layers of a mattress will interact together and with your individual body shape, weight distribution, and sleeping position. The good news is that you are already close enough to your ideal configuration and I’d make sure to seek a last word of advice from SleepEZ themselves as they would have all the information that would help make any meaningful comparisons between types of latex from different sources. (They have 4 different sources for their latex … and all would feel slightly different in the same ILD)

While my thoughts are of course generalizations and cannot replace your personal experience, I hope that they are helpful in deciding on this last eventual layering change. I am looking forward to any further updates you may have.

Phoenix

50

Above you wrote the following:

“This also makes thicker, and in some cases more pressure relieving, comfort layers possible when needed or preferable without the same degree of risk that a thicker “pillowtop” or “eurotop” comfort layer will put your spine out of alignment.” .

Just wondering if that means having a 3" soft comfort layer in the mattress proper vesus having the same 3" layer in a topper would be better for spinal alignment (all other layers being the same). If so, why is this?

51

Hi Demill1866,

Thanks or the question. Regarding the topper in the mattress proper, or used as a topper. The answer is not better or worse, only that it will feel different, and align you differently.

A topper within a mattress, connected to the other layers, and finished in a cover will be firmer than if one had a topper separate “on top” of the mattress. The “topper” is loose, more flexible, and will feel and support differently than in the proper mattress. So depending on the person’s weight, height, etc, could be better or worse.

Thanks
Sensei

52

I am getting ready to diy a latex mattress. I am considering using 3-3" “Latex Mattress Topper by Nature Pure” layers from foamorder.com . I purchased some 9" thick upholstery foam from them 3 years ago. They were very helpful and the sofa feels almost like the day I reassembled the cushions.

Has anyone bought latex from them?

I am a 5’7" 142 lbs. side sleeper. I have a lot of shoulder pain when sleeping so I need a very plush mattress.

Their GOLS dunlop soft is rated at 11-18 ILDs. Is it even possible to make dunlop that soft???

My planned build would be med (24-28), soft, soft. I am assuming their latex is a bit firmer than advertised. Or perhaps firm, med, soft inside the encasement, and a soft 3" topper.

Any help or advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated!

53

I hate to hijack the topic but I have questions about the comfort layer as well. I have the Ultimate Hybrid in Soft (19 ILD). I sleep on my stomach and side and it gives me hip pain when I am on my side. I think the wool blend in the mattress cover makes it firmer and I also feel the coils make it firmer. I was given he advice on here and by Ken to get an additional 2 inch topper. I know Arizona Mattresses only has 19 ILD but I was wondering if I should get a 14 ILD or if that will be too soft. I just don’t know if another 19 ILD will be the same “feel” as I have now or will help because there are more layers until the coils by adding another 2 inches, as well as the cover I got (I already purchased the cover as I bought a memory foam topper to try since they can be returned. My husband and I both hated sinking into the memory foam and not being able to move so I returned it) is a bamboo/cotton blend and not wool like the mattress cover. I have been obsessing about this topper for months now but I obsessed with the mattress and ended up slightly disappointed since it is a bit too firm. I just hate to end up with the wrong topper that I can’t return.

54

Hi Jill71rdh,

I responded on the other thread, but now you have returned the memory foam.

First of all, I understand your reluctance to not do “another 3” 19ild" and being a little concerned with 14ILD being too soft.

Adding another 3" 19ild will definitely change the feel of this mattress…100%. I can’t guarantee it will be the right fit for you, but it will change it. As it’s talked about here in differential construction, you can use one ild product and just need to find the right height needs for your body.

You could use any of these - 3" 24ild , or 2 or 3" 28ild, … and use as a transition layer underneath the 19ild. This may then give you enough of the progressive feel that will help with hip pain. Please also read about progressive construction to build up layers properly.

Thanks
Sensei

55

Hi lotus14,

Sounds exciting, the start of the DIY latex mattress.

Hopefully some of the members here that have purchased from Foamorder will see your post and share their comments but in the meantime a forum search on foamorder (you can just click the link) will bring up more comments and feedback about them as well. Even though they aren’t a member of the site (at least yet) … I think highly of Foamorder as well and I would certainly consider them to be a reliable supplier.

Well yes they can be that low, but the real question/problem is exactly what specific testing does the latex producer do to reach the ILD rating. The definition of ild on foamorder’s site is a little too simplistic, and imo wrong. ILD, short for indentation force deflection, is an ASTM standard measuring the amount of force it takes to compress the material by 25% and the other is the amount of force it takes to compress the same material by 40% (which of course would produce higher numbers). Secondly is the producer using 6" height foam, and another uses 3" height foam, the ILD’s are different for the SAME foam. There are a lot of other articles about this all over the TMU site.

Also make sure you check out the foamorder return policy before purchasing. Really it is hard to give anyone one hard and fst advice on the right 3" layers for you, only you can do that. My personal rule is the bottom 3" at firm is better for durability, then you need to go from there to see what best for you. Also if you are so inclined you can check out our trusted members as many of them have years of experience with DIY latex mattresses.

Good luck and let us know if you have any other questions, and let us know if you have any more questions.

Thanks
Sensei

56

Yes, I suspect foamorder’s soft dunlop @ 11-18 ILD is similar to most supplier’s soft dunlop @ 18-22. I’ll have to take that into account with the base layers as well. Hopefully I’m correct in this assumption!

Foamorder’s return policy isn’t bad. At least they offer reduced shipping back. My real concern is that the latex will have a strong smell. GOLS dunlop shouldn’t, but I won’t know until I already have about 200 lbs of it!

The things I like about foamorder is their amazing warranty - 15 years for a topper @ 1/2 inch indentation! Also, I couldn’t be happier with the sofa foam I bought from them 3 years ago.

My current thought for a very plush build is firm, med, soft, soft. Not sure if I’ll go with a heavier 9" encasement (DIY bedding’s quilted) and make the last layer a topper, or if I’ll go 12" and DIY bedding’s knit organic cotton and put everything inside.

Thanks for the help!

57

What about a 2 inch topper? With a bamboo/cotton cover? Would another 19 ILD give it a little more softness without changing the feel completely? Would a 2 inch 14 ILD be too soft? I am torn between the 2 in a 2 inch topper over my plush ultimate hybrid.

58

I currently have a 2" 20 ILD dunlop topper (SleepOnLatex) over a plush latex mattress. And yes, it does give a little more softness but nothing too radical. Great topper for the price.

With my limited experience a 2" 14 ILD topper might simply bottom out and do very little. So if I were going with 14 ILD I’d definitely want 3".

Who are you considering ordering from? Dreamfoam’s topper link will take you to their “sister site” mattresstopper.com (AKA Brooklyn Bedding). They only offer a 3" Talalay (soft, 19 ILD) but the good news is free shipping and free shipping on returns with no restocking fee.

For me, I’d rather stay away from talalay (having a bad experience with the smell) and stay with foamorder’s GOLS dunlop. Also, foamorder’s warranty is 15 years and mattresstopper.com is only 3.

Decisions, decisions!

59

I was going back and forth between Mattresses.net, Mayers bedding and Ultimate Sleep. Only the last 2 carry the 14 ILD. Is smell the only reason you prefer Dunlop?

60

Yes, just the smell. Probably just the latex I happened to get.

I suppose you know that all 3 of those make you pay return shipping. Latex is bulky and heavy.

And yes, another 2" of 19 ILD would definitely soften the mattress, but you won’t know what will work best for you until you try it. I’d try Sleep On Latex (or anyone with free returns) either 2" or 3" (3 will be softer). If it doesn’t work out your can send it back for free and try something else.

Most of the time you can just let latex air out on it’s own and it should ok. I’ve read it’s a bad idea to put it in the sun or a fan on it or something so mine is now outside the encasement and airing on a guest bed. We’ll see!