Mattress comfort layers - latex

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
81

Hey Lotus,

Well does it make sense? Most of it not really, some of it, yes it makes sense.

Most all Dunlop process companies around the world sell on density, this is very common, but almost all of the factories have testing equipment that provides a range of ILD averages for each Density. We do have some contact with the Lien A USA people and I sent email to see if I can get the info the factory provides.

The fact that it is 100% natural has no bearing on whether a latex core can be ILD tested. I do not recommend one trying to convert density to ILD. Of course, there is some statistical correlation to weight and ILD, but it differs for each manufacturer, differs for 100% natural and Blended (formula), and differs between Talalay and Dunlop (process). I would say that the “Firm 85D” would feel very similar to other 100% natural firm 85D products from India and Sri Lanka. I think you have tried some of the organic versions from our members. I am sure the ILD’s listed are close, but I am hesitant about the 85D being only 29-31 ILD.

Dunlop and Talalay aren’t directly comparable in terms of firmness using only ILD numbers because there are several factors that can affect how soft or firm a mattress (or an individual layer) feels besides just the ILD of the material, see post #4 here.

Dunlop and Talalay that are the same thickness and ILD won’t feel the same in terms of their firmness for most people because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). There is more about the difference between Dunlop and Talalay in see post #7 here.

And a little more info about ILD’s / different formulas and processes here post #6 here.

You may have read these links already but wanted to share for the rest of the people, it brings up a good topic not always well understood. Thanks, I will send update when we receive any info from Lien A.

Thanks again.

Sensei

82

Thanks for the detailed reply and the links Sensei.

Vytex’s statement: “We use density because we are all natural. Its hard to tell ILD’s because generally that’s a blend or synthetic” is disingenuous at best. All of the suppliers I’ve looked at (including GOLS dunlop) either post ILDs or reply with them when asked. Doesn’t help that on Vytex’s 4 Amazon product pages they give different answers to the ILD question for the same product. No wonder they’re struggling in what should be an easy market for them.

So I ordered 4 layers from them! Placed order Sunday night and received them today. Very fast.

No issues with dry, crumbling latex - seems very fresh and very little odor. All the layers had “Lien A 100% Natural Latex” molded into them except the x-soft which was ink stamped. Also the x-soft had a 12" piece glued down one side and a 4" piece glued down the other. Not a deal-breaker, just seems sloppy.

I used a very unscientific method to check ILDs. A 15 lb dumbbell, straightedge, and ruler to compare the indentations to the Sleeping Organic layers I had before boxing them up to send back. Would’ve been a good mattress for me except for the thick, heavy cover.

The x-soft Vytex was slightly softer than the SO x-soft Talalay (14-18.) Felt very slightly softer with a light hand press, but as you pointed out, when I pressed more firmly there was a point when the Vytex began to feel firmer. The other layers all seem just slightly firmer than the ratings given. Except the firm which you were correct about as well. It is much closer to 40 than 30. I’m curious to hear what Lien A has to say.

Pretty sure some combination of 3 of the 4 layers will make a very good mattress for me. Still have a couple of weeks before my knit ticking and wool arrives from DIY Bedding. Not their fault - I ordered the wrong thing and they were kind enough to correct my error at no cost to me.

Tonight I’ll take the med, soft, x-soft placed inside a 6-sided breathable, waterproof top encasement with a medium weight mattress pad for a test drive. Feels good to my shoulders and hips but perhaps not enough support.

Final takeaway in case anyone’s still reading this overlong post: Vytex seems to make a good topper that’s not just for someone with latex allergies. Ships in 24 hrs, free returns, and good pricing. A 3" queen medium is $245.

Be well.

83

Thanks for the updated information on the Vytex layers that you purchased. I’d be interested in hearing how you like your bed once assembled with the cover.

84

Be happy to dls1212.

85

Hey lotus14,

Thanks for the update, and the additional information on the Vytex. I am quite impressed with your homemade ild technique, at least for comparing specific layers you own.

Very interesting about the xsoft versus the 14-18 ILD talalay, and I am not surprised about the layers feeling a little firmer than the ratings, you have the history of being able to compare with different layers from diff manufacturers.

Looking forward to how it works out, and I will update Lien A when I receive info.

Thanks,
Sensei

86

What a difference a night makes!

This mattress is weird. After only one night it’s already loosened up considerably. Sitting well onto the mattress, and when lying down, it feels so soft it’s like a worn out innerspring even though the ILDs are rated close to the Sleeping Organic I’m returning.

Weirder yet, I got much less pressure relief despite the softness. Back pain wouldn’t have surprised me but my shoulders are sorer than they’ve been in a long time (side sleeper).

Should have known from the aforementioned red flags plus things like the x-soft description saying 14 ILD but further down the page it says 19 ILD. That and a big “Made In The USA” blurb when obviously made in Vietnam. Feeling pretty dumb right now!

Hopefully there won’t be a problem getting Vytex to honor the parts that say “easy returns” and “return shipping is no charge in the first 30 days”

Next (and hopefully last!) try will be Talalay Global’s blended from Mayer’s Bedding. Robert seems like a really nice guy in a genuine way - not in a “I’m being nice so I can sell you something” way. Very helpful and zero pressure.

Many thanks to Sweet Dreams and Jill71rdh for the recommendation!

87

Hey lotus14,

Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear about the issues with your Vytex toppers.

Good luck with your Talalay toppers …I have heard good thing about them from other consumers on this forum.

Sensei

88

Thanks Sensei.

My thought is that Talalay Global should be fine as long as they’re not having a bad day at the factory when mine comes of the production line. Mayer’s ships directly from them so there shouldn’t be any issue with latex that’s been sitting shrink wrapped in a warehouse for a long time.

I have 4 layers of differing ILDs coming. I chose blended because it’s supposed to be more durable and they can hit the exact ILD more easily. Planning to shuffle them to find 3 layers that provide the right support/pressure relief for me.

Question for you or anyone with long term experience with latex: I’m sure the latex will loosen up and soften a bit over the first few weeks. Beyond that I’ve read that latex really doesn’t soften much over time. It’s more likely to fail due to drying and hardening.

Is this true? Should I expect that what I have after 3 weeks or so is what I’ll have after 1, 3, or even 7 years? Obviously this is something I’ll want to take into account when choosing my setup.

89

Hello Lotus14,
In my experience, it should take 1-2 months for a latex mattress to “break in”. I have visited Talalay Global’s factory, and it was impressive to see all of these pallets with stacks of cores and mattress getting ready to ship out.
If the mattress has softened so quickly after you bought it, it might be really poor or defective Latex, or they are using a non stretch fabric that has stretched out which can make it seem like the mattress has a body impression.
100% natural latex from the rubber tree should not dry out or harden over time, unless it is handled a lot or if the latex is blended or has fillers.
About 4 or 5 years ago, we sold Vytex latex mattresses as well. It was a mixed bag for us. We tried 4 different models and they all felt super firm. They tell us that the Aurora Process they use to make the latex, removes almost all impurities and allergy producing proteins. We always wanted to know what “Latex” is actually left in the product?
Eco Bedroom/Ergovea sells 100% Certified Organic Dunlop Latex mattresses and toppers. They are able to create a Dunlop Latex that is soft but very supportive.

90

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your help. Vytex said in response to a question on Amazon they’re using dunlop process now for their toppers but in other places they mention Aurora. Just one more reason I feel like such a dummy for ordering from them.

The Vytex layers I’m on now feel soft when sitting and first lying down but no pressure relief. And yet not supportive either. Have tried with and without a top to the cover.

After my first night on them I compared with some dunlop layers I’m returning and discovered a possible reason. Vytex has almost no bounce or springiness. It feels dead, like an old, worn out mattress feels. I too wonder exactly what is taken out and what remains after their processing.

Since you have long experience with latex, after the break-in period should I expect the firmness of talalay (prefer the springier feel) to remain about the same a few years down the road? I want to end up with a plush feel but have to decide what firmness I want to start out with.

91

Mind me asking why your returning your sleepingorganic? I was thinking of buying from them.
Also, we are considering Plush Botanical Mattress which is all organic Dunlop and they don’t have ild either, it’s judt density. Anyone here ever tried a botanical 12" latex?

92

I’m only returning the Sleeping Organic because their cover is just too thick and heavy for me. They are a good company to deal with. After one exchange the firmness was good for me but I never liked their cover. I wanted something thinner with more give.

My only caution: Their main page offers a “100 Night Sleep Trial.” Common enough among mattress companies. But if you read the actual return policy you’ll see that you only have 45 nights to return the mattress. The 100 nights is for layer exchanges only.

Have you emailed Plush Beds to ask about ILDs? As Sensei pointed out earlier in this thread it’s hard to convert density to ILDs.

93

Thanks for the reply.
I didn’t ask them but we are going to order a split king 10" with med firm, firm and extra firm and med, firm and extra firm. We both prefer a medium to firm mattress so that’ll give us plenty of different variations to play with to use the 2 time exchange. We were going to go all out and get the 13" but they were pretty cool with us and said it was unecessary. Glad we’re going with the 10" not to over complicate things. We’re hoping for the best and are confident we’ll find something we like with what we’re tetting.

94

Congratulations on your new mattress, hope you love it!

And yes, firm latex is pretty solid. I doubt you’d even be able to tell the 4th layer was even there.

95

Question about blended vs 100% natural talalay. I have read in a couple of places in this forum that blended is more durable but does that statement may come from testing done by manufacturers or long term experience?

The reason I ask is that I have a top layer of 19 ILD blended from Talalay Global. After only a couple of nights it has softened a lot on the side I’ve slept on. It feel like the air and springiness has gone out of it. The other side of the mattress still feels nice and cushiony. I did not have this happen with a similar layer of 100% natural, also made by TG.

I’d really appreciate any comments that might shed some light on this!

96

Also, is there any reason to prefer Radium or Talalay Global?

What’s the deal with Radium’s cradle to cradle gold cert?

97

Hey lotus14,

That is interesting that it “softened” so noticeably after a few days. What is the height of the 19ILD blended? Of course, the 100% nat version was N1 or N2? Do you recall?

Yes you are 100% correct about your question/statement, the latex manufacturers usually test long term data and measure softening, and loss of height. The two most common mattress industry test are what is called the Cornell test and the Rollator test.
The Hexagonal Roller is a 240 lb hex shaped roller that moves back and forth across the width of the mattress (simulating typical sleep movement).

The Cornell test represents the human posterior and applies a 230 lb load to the mattress surface in a cyclic pounding format (simulating everything from sitting in bed reading a book to the occasional “trampoline” use). Firmness and thickness measurements are obtained to assess the amount of change that is brought on by the testing. A report summarizing the results includes a Compliance Percentage rating which gauges the sample’s performance compared with industry norms. In addition, a SCORE value is generated quantifying the amount of change the sample experienced as compared to its initial state. This is especially helpful when comparing the results of other mattress designs tested in the same way.

But to your issue/question, a key point re. softening: With latex softening will happen quicker in lower density products, all other variables kept equal. I am willing to bet the 19ild blended Talalay is the lowest density latex you have ever tried, (unless you tried 14ild Talalay). A 19ild 100% natural Talalay will be higher density, which short term would most likely not soften as quick as a 19ild blended. Theoretically, can’t say I have ever seen that specific test. That said, your product could be on the low side of Talalay range.

Regarding TG and Radium (Vita Talalay), TMU does not ever give a preference, these are the only two legitimate Talalay manufacturers in the world, and both make excellent products. The small differences I am sure you have read about on this forum.

Regarding’s Radium’s cradle to grave natural product, it’s actually officially called a Cradle to Cradle certification, see the Vita Talalay cradle to cradle page, here is the C2C certification company page C2C website about certification, and here is Radium’s / Vita’s certificate link.

Thanks, sorry a bit long winded…

Sensei

98

Thanks for your detailed response Sensei!

The 19 is 3".

My Sleeping Organic mattress had a top layer of 14-19 ILD NR talalay. It softened gradually over a few weeks. The Sleep On Latex topper I used trying to make a too firm Zenhaven work was 2" 20 ILD dunlop. It too softened gradually over a few weeks. Seemed softer than 20 but that was probably because it wan’t in a mattress cover, just their thin, stretchy topper cover. Nice topper.

I received four 3" layers of this blended talalay drop shipped from TG. 3 of the layers had well adhered (would have to tear latex to remove them) stickers with 9 test results on them. For example the 24 listed 23.7, 24.5, etc. etc. All were within 1 point of the target on all 3. The layer in question, the 19 ILD, did not have any sticker, not even a QC one. It just had 19 written on one end with a sharpie. Didn’t pass testing? Probably has nothing to do with it but I suppose I’ll never know.

Very interesting that blended is less dense than NR. Probably going with dunlop, dunlop, NR talalay for my DIY since I’ve had good luck with that combo.

99

Hey lotus14,

Thanks.

Regarding those stickers, they are legendary in the oem mattress world, so hard to tear off…but it is great data to check. Regarding the other piece, very often the aides are trimmed, and having the label side trimmed is really actually normal. But, easy to wonder, I get it.

Just quick point regarding the Blended / Natural density…its lower density statistically speaking with “same ILD” (19ild NR vs 19ild Blend), obviously as density is a weight measurement, but just being clear for many of our other readers not as versed in latex.

I like the combo with the NR talalay on top. Let us know how it works.

Thanks,
Sensei

100

Hello,

I hope I’m posting this question in the right place. We have decided on a latex mattress and I’ve been doing my homework reading this site and calling companies to ask questions. :slight_smile:
I’ve read that Talalay feels “springier”, so I was thinking of going with all Talalay.

About us:
I am 5’2" 235 lbs, side sleeper. I prefer a softer, more cushy mattress.
Hubby is 6’ 325 lbs, back sleeper. He prefers a med-firm mattress.

I’ve received recommendations from two companies based on our weights and sleep styles:

#1 from FoamSweetFoam (both sides, no side customization available that I know of)
Talalay med
Talalay firm
Dunlop xfirm
Dunlop xxfirm

#2 from Sleep EZ
Top: Blended Talalay - Medium | Firm
2nd: 100% Natural Dunlop - Medium | Firm
3rd: 100% Natural Dunlop - Firm | Extra Firm
Bottom: 100% Natural Dunlop - Extra Firm | Extra Firm

Then I found Flexus Comfort. They seem to offer the choice to have all layers in Talalay, so I configured this (have not talked with them yet, planning to call tomorrow):
Soft | Medium100% Natural Talalay
Medium| Firm100% Natural Talalay
Firm | Firm100% Natural Talalay
X-Firm| X-Firm100% Natural Talalay
Dunlop is an option from Flexus as well, but I wonder if all Talalay would work for us?

I would appreciate any guidance on what layers to choose. I like Flexus Comfort best of all three I think, since the cost for natural talalay is better. Sleep EZ had about a $500 difference when I switched from blended to natural for the top layer. I think Foamsweetfoam is out, since I will probably want to customize each side.

Thank you in advance for any help!