Mattress just arrived!

Thank you Phoenix & dn! That’s very helpful.
Our 6" core arrived with a FIRM label (D 85). One of the cores hasn’t arrived yet (split king), so we haven’t slept on it. Will report back next week!

Hello all you bed gurus!

After sleeping on latex for one week (see mattress configuration above), I have some decisions to make. Here’s what happened:

I woke up feeling pain in my mid-back which usually went away within 30-60 minutes. I also had discomfort down my outer leg (IT band) of whichever side I slept on, throughout the day.

Stats:
Me: 46yo female, 145#, 5’7", side sleeper
Him: 43yo male, 170#, 6’4", 50% back/50% side

We are currently sleeping WTHOUT a cover. I placed a puddle pad and a flat sheet over the sleeping surface.*.

After a few days, I was able to borrow my step-son’s (very old) Natura wool topper. It’s about 1" at most. They has greatly improved my comfort.

So things are looking promising that I will be able to “fine-tune” this mattress :slight_smile:

My thoughts on our options:

  1. Call Karl and order another soft “plate” of 2-3". OR one XL soft + one XL med-firm.
  2. And/or order a 2-3" wool topper
  3. And/or order a QUILTED mattress cover (ticking)~although others have mentioned that this will increase the firmness. Karl seems to think it might make it MORE comfortable for me??? Plus, I do like the idea of protecting the latex from sunlight, flaking, etc.
  4. OR order a double-knit organic cotton cover (not quilted). We had ordered one from FoamOrder.com, but the order was placed incorrectly and got cancelled. (and Option #2~topper)
    5)And/or order a CozyPure LaNoodle Cuddle Top

My sweetheart is pretty happy with the current feel of our mattress. He also mentioned that he might prefer a thinner cover over quilted (kind of a moot point since I’m pretty sure I’ll need some kind of a topper).

Each of these options is about $500 (except the knit cover, which is about $300), so doing all of them would get expensive.

*And I also have a question about sheets: None of our Eastern King sheets will fit this mattress?!? It’s about 1 1/2" longer than our Simmons Beautyrest. Can anyone recommend sheets that will fit without popping off our corners? (76’ x 80")

This is A LOT of information! Thank you for your time! I really appreciate it. I’m getting excited about creating “my” perfect sleeping space :slight_smile:

Hi buttercupbetmy,

Based on your description and on the specs of your mattress and your weight I would speculate that your comfort layer may be a little on the firm side.

What is the ILD (or density) of your 3" Dunlop layer?

Depending on how much more softness you think you may need (see the topper guidelines here) … i would be a little cautious about adding a topper that was too thick. Other than that it will really be a matter of trial and error as you add components and see how they affect the feel and performance of your mattress.

You can read a little more about wool toppers and some links to good sources of information in post #3 here.

That’s strange that your sheets don’t fit because 76" x 80" is a standard mattress size and fitted sheets (that have the right size pockets) will usually be fine within a normal +/- mattress size variance. It could be that the pockets are too shallow.

In any case … post #7 here (and the links it includes) has more information about various sheet options and sources that may be helpful or worth talking to although sheets and bedding isn’t my area of specialty and I don’t keep an extensive database of sources like I do with mattresses. Hopefully some of the other members will have some suggestions as well.

Phoenix

Hi buttercupbetty,

Regarding your thought about using wool, I recently did a review of an amazing 3" wool topper here:
https://forum.mattressunderground.com/t/sleeptek-classic-2000-3-wool-topper-review

Especially since you’ve tried wool and like it and if you are still considering that route, I’d have no concerns at all recommending this…it’s a wonderful product.

Thank you, Phoenix! I will peruse those links. I think I have already read a couple of them, but the information gets clearer/simpler with repetition.

To answer your question, our 3" dunlop comfort layer is 75.39D. I think soft is considered 70-80. Karl says that it’s the softest that Latex Green offers, although perhaps he could ask them to “hand-pick” a 70D. Even then, he doesn’t think I could tell the difference,

When you advise caution about adding a topper that’s too thick, do you distinguish between a fluffy wool topper and adding another “plate” to the interior of the mattress cover ? (when we get a cover :)) From reading your other guidelines, I realize that going to soft could generate alignment issues. But toppers are usually not returnable, so seems hard to guess before purchasing.

Regarding my sheets not fitting, I was asked by a bedding retailer if I wash them in hot water. Ahah. That’s possibly the issue. He recommended cold water and low heat to dry. All these years, I thought you were supposed to wash your sheets on hot.

And Phoenix, when you say “you add components and see how they affect the feel and performance of your mattress”, I’m guessing that you’re recommending ONE AT A TIME? So we pick whatever cover we like, buy it, sleep on it for a week…and then see what fine-tuning our mattress might need?

That makes sense. I have been in contact with Angela at Suite Sleep about custom ordering an organic cotton/wool quilted cover. Today she expressed concern about making me something that I might not like (all custom sales are final, of course.) Unfortunately, there’s no place near my house where I can try this cover. I’d like to approximate the feel of this type of cover on latex…

dn, I loved your review! Thank you!
And I have called TMASC. They are great.

You certainly have an AMAZING and high-end sleep system. We were budgeting $2500 for mattress and additional topper (king). I think we’ll be able to come in pretty close and have a fantastic set-up.

Hi buttercupbetty,

For what it’s worth, the D number I’d take to be the density, in kilogram (kg) per metre cubed. If you’re in the USA and don’t do metric, 1 kg is 2.2 lbs, and a metre is a touch longer than a yard. It can be converted to lbs per cubic foot, which is typically how density is expressed for memory foam and poly foam.

In any event, the higher the density the firmer the Dunlop. So a 70D is 70 kg / m3.

The reason they might be able to hand select a 70 is because the density of a slab of latex isn’t uniform through the entire thing when they make it. So there are more dense regions (one would assume the bottom of the slab)’ and less dense regions (one might assume the top 3"’ of a slab in this case).

Hi dn,

I am in the USA. In WA State, on the Olympic Peninsula about 2 hours from Seattle.

So…does our comfort layer sound soft?

Hi buttercupbetty,

As I wrote, it sounds almost identical to my setup. I think green sleep soft is 65 D. I originally had (top to bottom) 3" soft, 3" medium, 3" firm… And that was very painful for me for side sleeping, hip and shoulder pain (like I was taking Tylenol and Advil each night to try to make it through the night it hurt so bad pain, trying to let it break in and do the adjustment period- I quit that after 1.5-2 weeks). I switched to 3" soft, 3" soft, 3" firm and all pain went away and nice (per the wool review, got me 95% to the mythical goal of perfection).

So I’m not surprised that 3" of soft isn’t enough for you, especially right over firm. I had medium under the soft and it was too firm. For me, the fix was 6" of soft.

For really soft Dunlop, you need to ask Clawdia where she got hers. It’s probably around 50-60 D.

Do you think that I might be happy by adding another 3" of soft (75D)? I will look back over Clawdia’s post. I think maybe she went with Talalay…

Adding another 3" would bring us to 12". (3+3+6) I’d rather NOT do a layer exchange, as this would be a huge pain and expensive. In hindsight, I might have rather purchased all 3" layers, but c’est la vie.

And if I did this addition, I may or may not want a topper, right?

Hi buttercupbetty,

You can see the softness and ILD ratings for Latex Green in post #2 here. As you can see your top layer is more in the medium range than the soft range and for most people Dunlop will feel firmer than Talalay because it gets firmer more quickly as sink into it more. Lighter weights will generally perceive a specific ILD’s as being firmer than than someone that was heavier so firmness and softness are also subjective. It may also be worth trying turning the layer over because Dunlop generally has a slightly firmer and softer side because the latex particles tend to settle more than talalay when the latex is produced. The density/ILD of your top comfort layer is certainly “firmer than average” than most people of your weight and sleeping positions would normally choose although much of this also depends on preferences and physiology and all the other factors that can lead to one person making different choices than another even with similar body types and sleeping styles.

This would apply more to a more resilient latex layer than a wool layer because wool is less resilient and you will tend to sink into it more evenly. It’s not too likely you would have alignment issues even with a softer Dunlop in your comfort layer and too firm or too thin in the comfort layers can also lead to alignment issues because your shoulders may not sink in as much as they need to if the comfort layers are too firm or the latex may not “fill in the gaps” in your sleeping profile as well as a softer layer. Comfort layers that are too firm can also lead to rotational alignment issues (which is just as important) if you tend to “twist” away from pressure in either your upper or lower body. The pillow you use can also make a difference in upper body alignment and pressure issues and different mattresses often need different pillows to maintain the best alignment.

Normally I would suggest a DIY construction that uses a specific mattress you have tested and works well for PPP as a reference point and then “copy” it to the best of your ability but if you are working blind and don’t have specific reference points you have tested then I would build your mattress from the bottom up and use your experience sleeping directly on the 6" core as part of your guideline for choosing the thickness and firmness of the top layer (along with your “best judgement” about how much more softness you need for good pressure relief). Once you have slept on the top two layers (6" plus your first attempt at a comfort layer) then I would use your experience with those layers to decide whether you need one more layer (if your comfort choice didn’t quite work for you and couldn’t be exchanged for a different ILD) or whether it’s “close enough” to choose a cover or other components that you want to add to the mattress (keeping in mind how different covers will affect the “feel” of your mattress). A wool topper would be more of a “cush” layer for feel and to relieve more specific pressure points rather than re-distributing your weight along the entire body profile. It’s not as “supportive” as a latex layer. It will tend to soften up firmer layers but it can also make softer layers feel firmer because it can reduce the amount that a soft top layer compresses and contours to your body.

You can see an example of a “bottom up” and "one step at a time approach in this thread.

Even with this approach though you would be working blind to some degree without specific reference points of mattresses you have tested where you know the specifics of the layering and that were suitable for you in terms of PPP. When you are building your own it usually involves some trial and error and in some cases some “mistakes” to gain the personal experience and reference points you need to choose the best combination of layers.

Phoenix

I can’t say what will make you happy, wish I could!

For me, 6" of soft was very good (and still compared to many mattresses quite firm- it’s definitely supportive). It made all the difference for me. And as you know, I’m a perfectionist so I’m still playing around to experiment with different feels and softness on top.

What you might be able to do, which I was able with my beds, is try to take the 3" of the soft latex from his side to try and make 6" of soft on your side. You likely already have enough material to experiment with. Then you can try that for a bit to see?

Also, I don’t believe Clawdia has done talalay, she went all Dunlop originally.

Turning the top layer over is a great idea. We will try that today. Karl from Sleeponlatex sent me this link from Latex Green: http://latexgreen.com/cores.html So it does look like we’ve ended with something in the “medium” range.

I tried the link you posted to a one step at a time approach, but I can’t seem to locate the pertinent information. Can you narrow it down for me? Or perhaps copy & paste?

And I’m just curious, what would you guess would be comfortable for me in an additional layer ILD? Based on averages and my weight being 145# and a side sleeper?

Thank you!

I wish you could tell me what to do, too!

Do you mean fold the latex? Or cut it?

I wouldn’t cut it… It’s just an idea to let you experiment with what you have. It might not be possible.

Hi buttercupbetty,

Only you can decide whether a layer feels soft or firm because softness and firmness is subjective and what feels soft for one person can feel firm to another. Based on the ILD range though (listed in the previous link) it’s more in the medium range than soft.

When you are building your own mattress then only your own experience can answer these types of questions and give you the reference points and personal experience you need to build your own mattress. This is part of the challenge of the approach you are taking. Each person can be very different and without personally testing different ILD’s and different types of latex so you have good reference points then you are mostly looking at trial and error and “best guesses” as far as what works best for you. As I mentioned previously 75D Dunlop is a little firmer than many people would be comfortable with in a comfort layer although increasing the thickness of the comfort layers (by adding another layer) will make it a little softer. Given your feedback I would probably be going with something softer than 75D.

The link Karl sent you doesn’t include any information about ILD and it only lists three of the densities that Latex Green makes (they are all listed in the previous link I posted). He may not carry all of them.

It’s not in a single post but in the progression of the thread. I would start reading from post #9 onwards although the earlier posts will give you some insight and context into the options he was also considering and used as a reference point. He started off with his 6" support layer (two 3" layers) and slept on it and then used his sleeping experience on this single layer to guess at the thickness and softness he needed in the comfort layer rather than buying all the layers together. I would make sure that you don’t use his choices (or anyone else"s) as a basis for yours though because each person is very different and someone else’s experience may be very different from your own but I wanted to give an example of an overall approach to a DIY design.

He didn’t mention the cover he ended up using but it was the last step of the process. If I was adding a wool topper then I would choose that after the cover … bottom to top and each step based on your “best guess” and your actual sleeping experience on the step before it. You may still make mistakes and end up with layers that need to be exchanged or that may not “fit” in your overall design (or that need extra layers to be added that you didn’t expect) but that’s part of the challenge and learning process involved in any DIY project.

The guidelines I would use are in post #8 here about choosing a topper. Post #2 here also has some links to some of the pages that include some of the theory behind layering and matching different body types and sleeping positions but these are just generic concepts and each person is different. It’s only possible to know with any certainty based on your own personal experience in either testing different mattresses with different designs (where you know the specifics of what is in them) that you can use as a reference point or through your own sleeping experience and some trial and error.

Post #2 here (around the Seattle region) and post #2 here (Kitsap peninsula) may give you some places where you can do some local testing to help you decide on the combination that may work best for you.

Phoenix

[quote=“buttercupbetty” post=26781]Do you think that I might be happy by adding another 3" of soft (75D)? I will look back over Clawdia’s post. I think maybe she went with Talalay…

Adding another 3" would bring us to 12". (3+3+6) I’d rather NOT do a layer exchange, as this would be a huge pain and expensive. In hindsight, I might have rather purchased all 3" layers, but c’est la vie.

And if I did this addition, I may or may not want a topper, right?[/quote]

Hi Buttercupbetty,

Sounds like you’re deep in an experiment!

dn is right - my mattress is all Dunlop - the specs are:
19-23 ILD six inch core, and then a comfort layer of three inches of 16-18 ILD. The Dunlop layers both have a Latex Green tag on them. Mattress came from Sleep Essentials in Roanoke, VA - has no fire retardant at all, required a prescription to purchase, which made it tax exempt and tax deductible. This soft Dunlop mattress is targeted in advertising as being for people who either just plain love soft, or who have chronic pain problems like fibromyalgia or lupus, etc., which I do.

I tried to talk myself into following Phoenix’s advice about always getting a firmer rather than softer mattress, since it’s easier to fix too firm rather than too soft, but just couldn’t make myself want a firmer mattress. Surprisingly, the shop owner encouraged me to go with the softer mattress, saying he always told people if they were on the fence between two levels of firmness/softness, that they should go with the softer choice.

Most people who look at those numbers think my mattress must be very, very soft - but it doesn’t come close to feeling too soft to me. I don’t sink down too far, alignment seems good, etc. If anything, there are times I think I’d like it to be even a bit softer and cushier. I weigh in the 140s, and sleep on my side more than 90% of the time. Sometimes I wish my shoulders sank a little more into the mattress.

I like the feel of Dunlop latex, so I don’t want to add a cushy wool topper or anything that would interfere with the feel of the latex. I’ve even considered getting a very low ILD Talalay topper at some point, but I can’t find a local place to even try a Talalay topper, or even an all Talalay mattress - closest I can come would be a Pure Latex Bliss mattress, but those aren’t all natural Talalay unless I’ve misunderstood something.

My mattress came with what was said to be a knit stretch bamboo cover (it is soft). The only disappointment I’ve had with the mattress was after it was delivered and I looked at the tag inside the cover, which revealed it’s only partly made of rayon from bamboo, being a rayon/cotton blend, and it was made in China. Made me feel pretty stupid not to have insisted on seeing the tag before I purchased the mattress, but rather I took the shop owner’s word that it was a “bamboo cover”. I feel a bit like I got suckered on the cover.

I put an organic cotton stretch knit mattress protector over that (CozyPure), and it has not changed the feel of the mattress more than just a tiny bit. I suffer from severe “princess and the pea syndrome”, so I probably notice any change more than most people would. I wanted to protect the mattress a bit, and I also wanted some good organic material between me and that made in China part bamboo fabric that is the cover.

Obviously, I’d think your mattress way too firm! I hope you can figure out how to get it so it suits you.

@Clawdia

Thank you for the thorough summary! And yes, I am deep in an experiment :slight_smile:

I wish I could drive over and test your mattress!!! I’m having a hard time finding comparable “showrooms” in my area. Some of Phoenix’s recommendations are out of stock or not longer carry what I’m looking for.

I will find something soft enough for my preferences. It’s only a matter of time!

Interesting that you’d like to make your mattress even softer with another layer. I love the warmth of wool, so will probably end up adding at least a thin topper (1/2-1") after I sort out my latex layers, cover, etc.

Thanks again! I appreciate your insight & humor.

@Phoenix:

You mentioned the resiliency of latex vs sinking into a wool topper. My partner loves feeling the latex and is lobbying for a stretchy cover (not quilted). I, on the other hand, love wool for it’s thermal regulation. So when he learned that there are toppers made of BOTH latex and wool (like 3" latex + 1" wool), he thought that sounded great for us. His suggestion: stick with what we have and get a stretchy cover, then mitigate the “too firm” situation for me by adding a latex+wool topper.

I told him I thought there was a reason why this might be risky~but now I can’t remember what it is! I have searched the forum for “Latex & wool toppers”, but so far haven’t found any posts.

Please advise~thanks!!!

Hi buttercupbetty,

I don’t know which post you mean but the only inherent risk of any topper would be the same as with any sleeping system which is if the softness and thickness of the topper combined with the softness and thickness of the upper layers of your mattress were too much softness/thickness for your body type and didn’t keep you in good alignment in all your sleeping positions.

Phoenix