Mattress support cores - latex

[cbear08]

Hi sweetandsourkiwi,

It sounds like it’s time to return it (since it’s after the 30 day trial period), and look at other softer mattresses! If you like the benefit of Latex being all natural and chemical free then take a look at the Trusted Members for Mattress Underground (found here: Latex & All Latex :: The Mattress Underground). They have knowledgeable experts who can work through your comfort issues with you if you just give them a call. Some of them can get you a new comfortable mattress within the week! Looking at your weight, it seems like you need a much softer ILD than the Zenhaven-- so ask about softer latex comfort layers. Another plus is that many of these Trusted Member companies have mattresses that will suit you for much less money than the Zenhaven.

Hope this helps, as I’m sure this is a miserable experience. Let an expert try and help you!

[Cloud999]

“It’s just too much pressure under my hip and shoulder and not enough support under my waist. It’s not terrible, but it’s not “my” bed, and doesn’t feel worth the almost 2k price tag.”

That’s a good description of what I’m experiencing with the “Firm” side of the Zenhaven, when I’m on my side. When I’m on my back or stomach, it feels better than that to me. I’m still in the trial window and am waiting for a topper. I think the issue may be that the 1.5" “comfort” layer just isn’t thick enough for a ~200 lb. sleeper like me. My hips/shoulders seem to be bottoming out into the firm “support” layer.

[Cloud999]

I received the Zenhaven “Comfort Adjusting Topper” yesterday and slept on it last night. For me, it’s an improvement. It seems to do the job of relieving pressure on my hips/shoulders. They sent it out for no charge (with free shipping). I think their customer service is quite good.

I did not notice a glue seam (but didn’t really go looking for one either). The cover is a polyester/cotton blend, not the “organic cotton” quilted to wool that seems to comprise the mattress cover. A thicker cover might change the topper’s feel. I replaced a thick bamboo mattress cover with a very thin SafeRest protector, which seems to be a good choice for this mattress/topper combination, since it keeps me closer to the latex. There may be a trade-off if the poly/cotton cover and protector reduces breathability slightly. I do not know the ILD firmness or the exact thickness of the latex inside the topper.

Knowing what I now do about what seems to be working for me in a latex mattress, I think I’d prefer a zip-open cover so I could rearrange the internal layers. It seems a little odd to have (when the firmer side is up) a soft comfort layer or the bottom, then a medium support core, then a firmer support core. I might have been able to get the effect of the topper by moving that soft 1.5" comfort layer up from the bottom. And I think I might benefit, long term, from a firm/xfirm 3" support core on the bottom. With the flippable Zenhaven, you do trade off some flexibility for convenience. For many first-time latex buyers, their flippable package probably makes sense (but if you know exactly what you need up front, it might be better to tailor it from the bottom up to those needs).

[phoenix]

Hi Cloud999:

Thanks for taking the time to provide an update and share your experience with Zenhaven … I appreciate it . Even though the mattress by itself does not meet your specific comfort/support needs I am glad that Zen was so responsive and that they sent you their comfort adjusting topper and that the mattress/topper combo is working out for you. While adding the topper will certainly help I’d keep in mind that the thinner the topper the more you’ll feel the properties of the layers below it and that the 1" added to the comfort may still not be thick enough to give all pressure relief needed when sleeping on your side, A few more nights of sleepoing on the mattress/topper combo will certanly tell more than all the “theory at a distance” in the world.

Knowing what I now do about what seems to be working for me in a latex mattress, I think I’d prefer a zip-open cover so I could rearrange the internal layers. It seems a little odd to have (when the firmer side is up) a soft comfort layer or the bottom, then a medium support core, then a firmer support core.

As you say … “if you know exactly what you need up front” a closed-up mattress delivered as a finished product makes sense. On the other hand, the largest advantage to a component-style system is the ability to customize, replace, and rearrange layers over time to create different comforts or to replace worn out the uppermost layers (which undergo the most mechanical stress and are usually the softest layer within a system). There is more about the pros and cons of a “finished mattresses” that generally has glued layers vs a component style mattresses with unglued layers and a zip cover in post #15 here and post #2 here

I’m looking forward to any additional updates you might have the chance to share.

Phoenix

[Cloud999]

I measured the topper with calipers; the latex inside appears to be 1.5" thick (not 1"). 3" seems to be a standard thickness for latex comfort layers. After 5 nights it feels comfortable in all positions.

This may not be the absolute best mattress I could possibly get, for more money and the inconvenience of switching. The question is whether very good isn’t good enough. Based on various layer configuration tools and guidelines (including the Flobeds calculator), I’m a little concerned that for my BMI (5’11", 200 lbs., 27.9), this mattress is a bit soft in the lower support layer (N3, 25-29 ILD). If my concern is justified, maybe I could address it most cost-effectively (and conveniently) by ordering an inch or two of very firm Dunlop for just over the bed slats.

What I now have (top to bottom) is:
1.5" soft Talalay (ILD unknown)
1.5" Zoned N2 Talalay (20-25 ILD)
3" N4 Talalay (30-34 ILD)
3" N3 Talalay (25-29 ILD)
1.5" Zoned N1 Talalay (14-19 ILD)

[phoenix]

Hi Cloud999

Thanks for measuring the thickness of the free 1.5" latex topper you received. Good to know! This certainly adds a bit more depth and contours better around your body and helps with the pressure relief that you need. I am not sure now if Zen changes toper specs from time to time as other members of our forum have mentioned receiving different topper thicknesses. Good to keep an eye on!

This may not be the absolute best mattress I could possibly get, for more money and the inconvenience of switching. The question is whether very good isn’t good enough.

You are quite right that the inconvenience and the time involved in researching and “switching” mattresses (which may or may not be better than the previous one) should always be “questioned” as part of your personal value equation and what is most important to you. Most of the people that come to our forum wrestled with a similar situation …. the choice between something that seems good enough and something that may be better. I wish there was a “formula” that can be used to assess it, but unfortunately, no one else but you can answer this with certainty as there are too many variables, needs, and personal preferences involved.

[quote]I’m a little concerned that for my BMI (5’11", 200 lbs., 27.9), this mattress is a bit soft in the lower support layer (N3, 25-29 ILD).
[/quote]

With a two-sided design, the softer layers located lower/deeper within the mattress work together with the layers above for a certain feel and support/comfort range. If durability is of concern, I’d keep in mind that these “deeper” layers compress uniformly and are not under the same mechanical stress that the uppermost layers go through and they would be the last layers in a mattress to break down over time. Additionally, the durability of the latex in the comfort layers would not be of concern at your current BMI. The only concerns I’d have would be only for a plush latex comfort layer for a person with a 30+ BMI index which would be the threshold where you would start to see some evidence of breakdown. If suitability is of concern to you then I’d keep in mind that the softer layers situated much deeper within the mattress (or at the bottom) are the least noticeable on the sleeping surface and the foams beneath the N4 will only very slightly soften up the deep support, If you found the layering arrangement is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP you should be OK at your BMI and there should be no cause for concern for either support or durability.

Other than this It is not possible to tell if this layering combination is a perfect match for you as you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to assess this, predict, or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

I hope this clarifies things and helps with your final decision

Phoenix

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Thanks to everyone who weighed in. I’m in the final weeks of deciding on the Zenhaven. (When they send you a topper they extend your trial, so I’ve now had it for almost 6 months.) This was generous, but honestly with summer travel and fluctuations in health, I’ve needed it!

I suffer from many health problems so it can be hard to tell where the mattress factors in—am I stiff from raging fibromyalgia or a bad fitting mattress? Sleep issues from health stuff, or the bed? It’s so hard to say!

But, on a good night I conk out quickly and sleep on through 'til morning. I don’t think I’m tossing and turning from the bed…when I do have a toss and turn night, it’s from my pain, which varies from night to night. I am often in a lot more pain when I first wake up, lessening after 15-30 minutes of getting up, but I’m not sure if that’s the mattress or the chronic pain issues.

I do not relish hanging out in the bed once I’m awake, even with the topper, because it’s just not that comfortable to me as a side sleeper. I wonder if the kind of bed you want to cozy up in for hours and “can’t get out of” might not actually be supportive enough. Maybe that’s just what I tell myself because I still haven’t found a great alternative.

I never think, I love this bed. I often grumble that I want to ditch it. But honestly, I’m in a lot of pain and the only bed that felt comfortable to me out shopping was a $4k Bliss bed (which I cannot afford, and am not really sure would be supportive enough.)

I agree with the poster above that once you learn more, it would be more fun to just go the component route! But as I’ve looked around for replacement alternatives, it seems the Zenhaven is priced well (taking the ripoff box spring out of the equation, which I now which I’d researched as much as the bed!) and I’m in a similar boat…I don’t want to return it and wind up with something worse.

I do think I chose well for myself with the information I had at the time—100% talalay latex, soft and low pressure and supportive, and as natural/non-toxic as possible for under $2k was and still is my goal. I have wondered if I should switch teams, but I don’t care for the feel of memory foam (although I could probably get used to it) and the environmental/health concerns freak me out. Foam seems like to some degree it would have similar issues.

I do wish I could have gone with our local latex manufacturer. I simply did not find their beds comfortable (as they felt too simple and only carried two foam densities for all the layers), and they were 2x as expensive as the Zenhaven with similar materials. I almost went with FSF, but my hesitation is the return (if needed)—rolling and boxing something heavy up is impossible for me with my health issues and I’m already deep into medical bills. If I return the Zenhaven, they (well, their contracted company) literally come and get it (and I’m out $99 for the non-refundable delivery fee it came with.) I say this to let manufacturers know this risk might be one thing that sways out-of-town shoppers over to “bigger brand” manufacturers.

I have three routes at this point: exchange the bed for something else in the natural latex category for around $2k, replace the bed with something less “prestige” in the $1k category because for this level of “meh” I could at least have $1k back (and maybe add a good latex topper?), or decide to keep the Zenhaven, but ask they replace the topper. (I know. Customer-zilla. But I can still only sleep on one side of my bed.)

Anyway, that’s my update!

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I have decided not to settle. This bed will last 10+ years and while I do seem to get the support I need to not wake up in pain, I want to also have comfort, too. I am hoping it is possible to have both. I am starting over and doing this the Mattress Underground way instead of the emotional, sleep deprived way I did this last time. Whether this means simply getting a different topper for the Zenhaven or a new mattress altogether, I am not yet sure. Amassing PPP and other data currently.

There isn’t much to test in town, so as my own experiment today, I hacked the backing off the free topper Zenhaven gave me. It is not stretchy and I felt that maybe it was interfering with the feel of the bed. After all, my main problem is it feels harder than I would like under my shoulder and hip, and not supportive under my waist.

In case anyone else is tempted, don’t do it! It didn’t make a difference. And now my admittedly iffy topper is not encased.

Step two, I folded the now backless 1.5" topper over to get a feel for what a 3" low-ILD comfort topper might feel like. Way plusher! Softer under my hip and shoulder and starting to support my middle. But, my low back immediately let me know it wasn’t sure about this. It’s really narrow, but I may try to sleep on it to see if that gives me any sort of idea for if that is a good direction to go.

With this thicker version, I could also see what people meant by talalay being springy. It felt a bit like Jello. I do wish we had some Dunlop in town as I would like to see the difference. My current preference is a Talalay top due to the fact I like the topper and what I’ve read about it, but I do wonder why so many of the manufacturers, especially on the affordable end, choose a dunlop top.

I do not know the ILD of the topper and the sales guy didn’t either. I think he hazarded a guess of 7 but I’m not sure that’s even a thing. He did tell me it’s lighter than what’s in the bed. Since I won’t be hacking into my mattress, I’m not sure!

More to come. I’ve made a list of the online latex mattress manufacturers and resellers with decent return policies recommended by TMU and narrowed out the ones I can afford (around $2k or less), so that’s where I’m starting from now.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I will share my PPP in case that is helpful to anyone else in a similar boat.

Stats:
135lb single female
side sleeper
severe chronic pain/fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome
currently on a Zenhaven but finding it a little too supportive and not comfortable, even with a 1.5 talalay topper

In a nutshell, I would like to find a mostly organic/natural talalay mattress (and possibly topper since I love the fluff!) in a soft, supportive, side sleeper-friendly construction for $2k or less with good return options if needed and really helpful customer service.

What you prefer:

Microclimate, breathability and temperature control
Lots of breathability, neutral to slightly cool temperature

Slow or fast response materials and where in the range you prefer
Fast. Instant preferred.

Sleeping “on” vs “in” the mattress
Bit of both, like to feel sunk in enough to be stable on my side and well contoured, a little fluff to snuggle into.

Motion isolation with small and large movements
Single so don’t really care, but some might be nice for the future.

The ease of movement or movement restriction on the mattress for changing position and “other activities”
I want to be able to move and change positions quite easily.

Edge support for those who sit or sleep on the edge of a mattress
I have iffy edge support on my Zenhaven and am used to it now. I don’t want to feel like I’m rolling out of bed, but I don’t use the edge of the mattress much.

“Roll together” for those who sleep close together in the center of a mattress
Single! But feeling sucked into another part of the bed drives me nuts. I already feel like I roll a little to the middle of my Zenhaven.

Overall “feel” (such as the difference between combinations that include the “feel” of innersprings and/or different types of foam in the comfort or support layers)
I just don’t like memory foam. I want a low to no pressure feel. I like a layer of airy fluff on top of the bed.

Durability of materials in the mattress
Longevity would be nice although I imagine my needs will change over time. What’s more important to me is that the foams aren’t degrading and being breathed in.

Durability of construction (such as one or two sided)
Important but not a deciding factor.

Quality and performance of materials and construction
I want the highest quality I can afford.

Ability to open the mattress and exchange layers or make changes after purchase
I think this would be a nice to have but also could be fixed with a topper.

Warranty and warranty exclusions (which are often more important then the warranty itself). You can read more about mattress warranties here .

I like that my Zenhaven has a half-inch indentation policy. An inch and a half is more standard, that seems like a lot!

Budget limitations and range
Up to ~$2,200, needs to include base and topper. Probably not less than $1k and my preferences seem to put me above $1500.

Price vs quality and “commodity” value of materials
Obviously I’d like the highest quality for the lowest price available, but I definitely make considerations for cut corners. I don’t want to save because returned mattresses are thrown in a landfill, for example.

Mattress only or foundation included (and the type)
Prefer foundation available from same company but it’s not a deal breaker.

Natural materials vs synthetic
As much natural and more importantly organic as possible. This IS very important to me.

The type of cover and quilting (if any) you prefer
Organic natural

Your choice of retailer or manufacturer:
I don’t care for our limited local options, so sells online and willing to work with me!

The different “value added” options that go with the mattress (delivery, financing, bonuses like pillows or a protector etc).
Delivery and especially assisted delivery is really helpful but at the end of the day, icing.

Options after purchase
Free return with assistance moving the mattress is best, return available with some loss and packing required is acceptable but not ideal. I will not consider a mattress I can’t return. Layer exchanges are helpful, especially when free. Minimum 30 day trial or I won’t consider it.

The knowledge and service of the outlet you buy from
I want someone that really knows their stuff and performs attentive, thorough customer service

The importance of supporting a particular retailer or manufacturer
I am swayed by retailers that take sustainability seriously, and have quick clear communication

[NestHaven]

Hi Sweet,

I would try Nest Bedding, especially if you have a store location near you, as they’ve been great to deal with. My partner has similar stats as you, and we’ve been doing well with their Hybrid Latex. While we have the former Talalay version, their redesigned Dunlop version is even softer/more conforming, and might provide a better overall fit for you. You might be able to work with them on switching to Talalay, too.

Another option would be Arizona Premium Mattress. We have not purchased from them, but they make similar quality products, and Ken (the owner) is very knowledgeable and responsive.

Either Nest Bedding or Arizona Premium Mattress might be good fits for you. Those are the two brands that I recommend to people looking for a solid latex mattress from companies who care about their products. And based on the vetting that Phoenix (site administrator) does, any of the Trusted Members on this site would be worth a look as well.

Hope that helps, and all the best with your search! We went through 9 mattress brands over the last year or so (Sealy, Serta, Saatva, Brentwood Home, Leesa, Casper, Aireloom, etc.), and are finally satisfied with our Nest Bedding mattress. We definitely wish we had started our mattress search here first, so there certainly is a wealth of information on this site…

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Thank so much for your input. NINE over the past year!! Wow, you really went through the ringer. I think I am done trying to sort through the millennial disruptor beds and am really only looking at manufacturers from TMU.

I did look at Arizona and didn’t see an easy return…and Nest definitely caught my eye too. They seemed a bit pricier than similarly constructed “off brands”, but they’re still on my list.

I have also thought of a third option—simply buying a new topper for the Zenhaven. Maybe I’m closer than I realize and more in the tweaking stage? But, it’s more tempting to start from scratch with a manufacturer who can really help me choose or build to spec, knowing how it will all work together, and also buying myself more time to return if I really need it.

Thanks for your help! Glad you found your bed!

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I take it back—cutting the unstretchy, canvas/tarplike material off the back of the topper DID make a difference. I felt less pressure under my hip and shoulder and like the layers were “interacting” more, creating a more responsive bed and more sink overall. This was the first time I felt the material to rise up under my waist.

I’m still not decided on what I’ll do, but it was a powerful testament to how minor materials can really change the feel of the bed. Now it makes sense to me why a bed with the exact same build and ILD could feel totally different.

I also tried out the “doubled” layer to get a feel for 3 inches of light talalay. I could see what folks meant when they said they got a zero gravity sensation from latex. The pressure disappeared. I kinda liked it, but I also kinda felt like I was getting eaten a bit by the bed. It was a struggle to get up or flip over. Granted, I was on a narrow piece of folded latex, so a full bed might be different. But I think that layer of fluff might actually be too much. Looks like my sweet spot is somewhere in between.

Anyway…I slept over 9 hours straight! But more time is needed to come to a plan.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I had a friend take some pictures of me on the bed to confirm what I felt…it appears with or without a pillow, my hip and shoulder aren’t sinking in enough to allow my spine to straighten, causing me to capsize at the waist.

It seems the pillow worsens it but my shoulder would be really jammed in there without it.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I saw something that said talalay from South America is higher quality than Sri Lanka…is this true?

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I decided to start over with Foam Sweet Foam.

I just heard back from them that they think their product would be too similar to the Zenhaven for me. It looks like they are semi-custom and don’t do toppers at all so they don’t have an option to make it softer. Shoot!

I have emailed SleepEZ and SleepingOrganic next in hopes of getting a dialed recommendation for what to build. I chose them due to their availability of talalay and decent return policies but am really hopeful to hear back from SleepEZ since they’ve been in business the longest, are participating members here, and have a better return policy (should I need it which I really hope I don’t!) But, only Sleeping Organic has the extra-soft Talalay which may be what I need…

to be continued!

[Sweet_Dreams]

According to this post as well as what I’ve read elsewhere it appears that Sri Lanka only sources Dunlop processed latex. The Talalay process is more involved which results in its generally higher cost and it is produced in fewer facilities. It’s entirely possible that there have been changes in latex manufacturing facilities since that post, and I’m sure someone will correct me if it’s no longer accurate.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Thank you! I’m seeing some Sri Lankan talalay so not quite sure…

[Cloud999]

"I decided to start over with Foam Sweet Foam.

I just heard back from them that they think their product would be too similar to the Zenhaven for me. It looks like they are semi-custom and don’t do toppers at all so they don’t have an option to make it softer. "

I don’t understand why FSM’s product necessarily would be too similar to the Zenhaven. The Zenhaven comes in one fixed 10" design. Its upper comfort layer always is only 1.5" thick (unless you add a topper). All layers are Talalay. With the FSM product you can choose a 10" or 13" thickness. The comfort layers are 3" thick. For the upper layers, you can choose Dunlop or Talalay. You can choose different firmness levels for each layer. You can order split layers and you can move layers up and down in the stack. So an FSM product can be quite different in design from the Zenhaven.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I agree Cloud999, I was surprised and disappointed to receive that response from them as well. They also said their ILDs were similar so maybe there was only so much they felt they could do in this scenario. Or they may have looked at me as someone who was already returning a latex bed as a liability, someone they can’t adequately profit from if returns and swaps are needed. I understand minimizing risk from a business owner perspective.

I spoke with SleepEZ and they recommended building a shorter mattress with the plan of having the top layer be a free-floating topper, as this increases the feeling of softness and plushness. I am mulling over this idea. The proposed build was really similar to the Zenhaven, which isn’t working for me. Their selling point seems to be that you can “dial in” the bed with layer swaps, which I appreciate, but I also want to get the bed dialed before I buy it. I watched a tutorial on packing layer swaps and it’s an impetus for a chronically ill, small person who lives alone.

I also wonder if I am pushing the latex thing too hard. I love the environmental and low-toxicity angles, I love how Talalay sounds in theory (and I don’t care for memory foam) and I did love my test run on the PTB bed, but ultimately I haven’t liked our local latex beds, I haven’t liked this Zenhaven…maybe I like the idea of latex more than the reality! I’m wondering if I should look into a hybrid or check out some alternative foams.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I spent the weekend looking at some other more “mainstream” options, but my heart is still in latex for a multitude of reasons. So, continuing to experiment with what I have in order to take as much information possible to whomever builds the next bed! Some lessons learned:

1. My pillow does not fit my bed and I noticed when my head isn’t jacked up so high, my hip doesn’t feel like it’s digging in as much.

2. When I cut the unstretchy back off my mattress topper (the free one from Zenhaven with the awkward glue seam) it made the topper feel a little better. I’ve still been using the top, a quilted thick material on top of that to protect the topper and act as a mattress pad of sorts. Today I was testing out the bed in different configurations (can I go without the topper? No.) and realized the topper feels SO much better without the quilting! It is stretchy, but not very, so I wonder if it was dampening some point elasticity.

I understand toppers need to be protected from body oils and oxidation, but since this one is defective (can only sleep on half of it) I figure I can use it for more experiments until I get a good one (which I will definitely be getting in a stretchy cover, now that I know more.)

I also realized that folding the topper horizontally and then rotating it 90% would give me an approximation of a 3" topper that I could probably actually sleep on, even though it’s too short. So I will be giving my unquilted, doubled topper a spin tonight to see how that is for future purchases.

This all gave me an enhanced understanding of how very small variations can make a big difference to how a bed feels.

I do have a feeling a light-ILD topper will be in my future, and I’m glad I read today that they aren’t expected to last more than a year (!). This explains why so few manufacturs have them, and why I would want to get my light layer as a topper and not an integral part of the bed. Unfortunately, the Zenhaven’s top IS built-in at 14-19 ILD. Eek.

(I’m also considering just going bold and asking Zenhaven if they’d replace the defective topper with a thicker one short of returning the bed. A last hail mary before I give up and we all lose money on the interaction. I don’t even know if this is something they have access to. And it wouldn’t solve the issue of the low ILD built into the top layer or just the fact that I’m topping a 10" mattress that doesn’t work great for me on its own, but…it’s a thought.)

Anyway. This mattress stuff is hard! Especially for obsessive “maximizers” like myself…my spreadsheet’s getting long and involved. Hoping I’m starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel.