Mattress support cores - latex

[Cloud999]

"I decided to start over with Foam Sweet Foam.

I just heard back from them that they think their product would be too similar to the Zenhaven for me. It looks like they are semi-custom and don’t do toppers at all so they don’t have an option to make it softer. "

I don’t understand why FSM’s product necessarily would be too similar to the Zenhaven. The Zenhaven comes in one fixed 10" design. Its upper comfort layer always is only 1.5" thick (unless you add a topper). All layers are Talalay. With the FSM product you can choose a 10" or 13" thickness. The comfort layers are 3" thick. For the upper layers, you can choose Dunlop or Talalay. You can choose different firmness levels for each layer. You can order split layers and you can move layers up and down in the stack. So an FSM product can be quite different in design from the Zenhaven.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I agree Cloud999, I was surprised and disappointed to receive that response from them as well. They also said their ILDs were similar so maybe there was only so much they felt they could do in this scenario. Or they may have looked at me as someone who was already returning a latex bed as a liability, someone they can’t adequately profit from if returns and swaps are needed. I understand minimizing risk from a business owner perspective.

I spoke with SleepEZ and they recommended building a shorter mattress with the plan of having the top layer be a free-floating topper, as this increases the feeling of softness and plushness. I am mulling over this idea. The proposed build was really similar to the Zenhaven, which isn’t working for me. Their selling point seems to be that you can “dial in” the bed with layer swaps, which I appreciate, but I also want to get the bed dialed before I buy it. I watched a tutorial on packing layer swaps and it’s an impetus for a chronically ill, small person who lives alone.

I also wonder if I am pushing the latex thing too hard. I love the environmental and low-toxicity angles, I love how Talalay sounds in theory (and I don’t care for memory foam) and I did love my test run on the PTB bed, but ultimately I haven’t liked our local latex beds, I haven’t liked this Zenhaven…maybe I like the idea of latex more than the reality! I’m wondering if I should look into a hybrid or check out some alternative foams.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I spent the weekend looking at some other more “mainstream” options, but my heart is still in latex for a multitude of reasons. So, continuing to experiment with what I have in order to take as much information possible to whomever builds the next bed! Some lessons learned:

1. My pillow does not fit my bed and I noticed when my head isn’t jacked up so high, my hip doesn’t feel like it’s digging in as much.

2. When I cut the unstretchy back off my mattress topper (the free one from Zenhaven with the awkward glue seam) it made the topper feel a little better. I’ve still been using the top, a quilted thick material on top of that to protect the topper and act as a mattress pad of sorts. Today I was testing out the bed in different configurations (can I go without the topper? No.) and realized the topper feels SO much better without the quilting! It is stretchy, but not very, so I wonder if it was dampening some point elasticity.

I understand toppers need to be protected from body oils and oxidation, but since this one is defective (can only sleep on half of it) I figure I can use it for more experiments until I get a good one (which I will definitely be getting in a stretchy cover, now that I know more.)

I also realized that folding the topper horizontally and then rotating it 90% would give me an approximation of a 3" topper that I could probably actually sleep on, even though it’s too short. So I will be giving my unquilted, doubled topper a spin tonight to see how that is for future purchases.

This all gave me an enhanced understanding of how very small variations can make a big difference to how a bed feels.

I do have a feeling a light-ILD topper will be in my future, and I’m glad I read today that they aren’t expected to last more than a year (!). This explains why so few manufacturs have them, and why I would want to get my light layer as a topper and not an integral part of the bed. Unfortunately, the Zenhaven’s top IS built-in at 14-19 ILD. Eek.

(I’m also considering just going bold and asking Zenhaven if they’d replace the defective topper with a thicker one short of returning the bed. A last hail mary before I give up and we all lose money on the interaction. I don’t even know if this is something they have access to. And it wouldn’t solve the issue of the low ILD built into the top layer or just the fact that I’m topping a 10" mattress that doesn’t work great for me on its own, but…it’s a thought.)

Anyway. This mattress stuff is hard! Especially for obsessive “maximizers” like myself…my spreadsheet’s getting long and involved. Hoping I’m starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I didn’t even make it an hour on the folded topper…3" of super light ILD just felt…silly. I thought I’d feel like a rich person in all that ploof! Nope. Just started to get some hip spasming and felt a little like I was suffocating. It was a pain to move around. I kinda felt like I was sleeping in a pile of laundry.

Also, maybe latex is temperature neutral but this definitely made the bed a lot warmer. Makes sense, there’s less airflow around parts that usually have more.

So instead I just tested out the topper without the cover…it certainly makes the contour much more specific. This also makes the bed sleep warmer. I actually didn’t like it as much as I thought I would, at least not at first. I think part of the reason we need adjustment periods is just the habits of sleep, feeling something specific we associate with sleep…any change just messes it up!

I also trialed some old pillows that have less loft and this seemed to put me in a better position. I still feel more pressure under my shoulder than I want, but interesting how these minor adjustments can make a big difference on the feel of the bed. It also makes me feel tired in advance thinking of dialing in something new…I wonder how good it can really get, when I already have chronic pain.

[jordanzhb]

latex mattress topper is really good for sleeping. I think another disadvantage of the latex smell should be considered as not all people like this smell.

[phoenix]

Hi jordanzhb.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum!

TMU’s experience (and that of its extensive consumer members) with latex products (mattresses, toppers, and pillows) is that the on the occasions where there is a remnant odor from the latex production process, it will dissipate over time.

There is more about the smell of latex in post #2 here but in most cases, it is reduced to levels below what people will notice in a few days to a few weeks but this can also depend on how acute your sense of smell is and on how sensitive you are to a particular smell. There can also be some differences between different batches of Talalay. There is also more about the odor of new materials in post #3 here that may be helpful.

NOTE Added: I have noticed a second promotional post which I have deleted and removed promo link from the post above.

Phoenix

[matbuy]

hi, just wondering if you ever found a good latex mattress. i have fibro and had to return a latex mattress because it was much too firm. hoping latex can be soft enough to sleep on without pain.

[JZJ]

Hi, I have something similar to fibro. I researched here, then bought an organic Talalay latex queen mattress from SleepEZ (about 2 yrs ago). I LOVE it. It has three layers that are split down the middle (6 pieces; so each side’s layers can be arranged differently). Layers are dense base, medium middle, and soft top (what the SleepEZ rep advised). If you prefer softer, you can switch out one of the firmer layers within 30 days, I believe, or choose softer layers to start. Mine has a cotton/wool organic cover/casing. I make four adjustments for pain: (1) use a firmer neck roll under a very soft polyfoam pillow (the kidney bean shaped type that has a well in the middle) to support the neck’s s-curve with min. pressure against skin, (2) put a soft pillow under my knees (or between if side sleeping), and (3) put an additional mattress pad over the one that comes with the mattress (makes it softer and cooler, and prevents itching–if you’re super sensitive to wool, like me), and (4) use cotton sheets and a cotton blanket for max breathability as latex can feel warm (non-bulky synthetic blankets are fine over that as needed). I hope this is helpful!

[Sensei]

Thanks JZJ! Your post is very helpful and a great example of how consumer members can assist others by sharing their methods of achieving success in the quest for a great night’s sleep.

Sensei

[sweetandsourkiwi]

No, but I did start to like my mattress a lot better after adding a second topper. It’s still not perfect or dialed, and I don’t love it because there’s a bit of pressure under my shoulder, but I am sleeping pretty dang well in spite of that. I’ve been on the phone with SleepEZ about potentially ordering something else, but am wary of getting into a merry-go-round of layer swaps when I’m already sleeping fine, which is the entire point of the mattress anyway. We’ll see!

[sweetandsourkiwi]

I will add, I do wish I had started with something customizable like SleepEZ. I need to send the ZH back in a month if decide against it, but that’s not much overlap time. I don’t want to give up something I’m sleeping well on to get something that might feel comfier but then give me low back pain or something…I’m pretty sure once you send a bed back (especially when the company wound up sending you two due to warranty issues) they ban you from buying it again…

[Administrator1]

It’s doubtful that any company will publish a policy that cites it will ban a customer, but it is practical for you to assume that multiple returns for full refunds will get you placed on some sort of list. The cost of returns/refunds is a major expense for all mattress companies, both online only and traditional retail. The mattresses are either donated or disposed of, and in either case, it’s a serious financial loss to the mattress company. With shipping costs and removal costs added in, a mattress return for a refund can be 50-60% of the mattress sales price.

TMU

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Thanks, Admin, yes, I’m sure it’s a major cost! To clarify, I have not asked for multiple refunds…the first mattress had a number of QC issues and when I called to return, I wound up accepting a replacement mattress with another trial period. I am indeed considering returning this one…currently trying to figure out how to start a new post in the forum to discuss!

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Thank you JZJ! I missed this message before. SleepEZ recommended the same configuration to me. I am a strict side sleeper who loves a lot of point elasticity so I might need to tweak it a bit—have one layer be a topper or something.

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Hello from the rabbit hole! The journey continues.

I returned to the stores and confirmed that latex is my favorite comfort layer, Talalay (partly bc the dunlop options were scarce and I didn’t care for them, but they were also trapped in the bed and not testable “naked.”) I like that it pushes back a bit and has that “lively” bounce to it. The other foams, even just poly, felt dead under my hip and shoulder. I still can’t figure out how to better eliminate pressure with talalay under my shoulder, it seems to be an inescapable downside—more on that in a minute.

I confirmed that either latex or springs is my favorite support layer. The lean towards latex in this case wouldn’t be so much for comfort since I liked them both in different ways, but for durability and swap-ability.

And I discovered JUST how much of a difference the encasement materials can make. I was able to test some latex beds here, and I started with the covers zipped off. I spent about two hours comparing how I felt on different ILDs, etc, without the covers on. I would love to buy from these guys even though they are more expensive than online—they are a local business and I can try the stuff. HOWEVER, the instant I zipped the cover on, the bed became a “no.” Not just a little too firm, a little uncomfortable—a solid ah. heck. no. They only have one cover material and while it doesn’t look unstretchy on the bed, it definitely doesn’t stretch enough for a light side sleeper with preferences like mine—I get no pressure relief and no support under my waist.

Seeing the huge difference this made, I came back and evaluated the Zenhaven differently. I’m not sure if it’s a case that the ILDs are actually wrong for me…I wonder if when my shoulder and hip sink through the 3" of 7 or 14 ILD topper (jury’s out on what it actually is), they are hitting not a stiff layer of latex but a not-stretchy enough cover.

With this in mind, I cut the tarplike backing off my second topper and stacked them on top of each other. Er, mista—uh, learning moment. Yes, the pressure under my shoulder finally disappeared! But my low back felt uncomfortable (both going to bed and waking up…once in the middle of the night for awhile) in a way that is definitely not my usual chronic pain stuff…I know we need adjustment periods but this felt like an obvious sign that 2 layers of 1.5" lightweight Talalay isn’t conducive to proper support. Crazy that that thin backing material was actually influencing how I interacted with the support so strongly!

Bottom line, it’s unknown to me if the Zenhaven inner layers and ILD’s actually are the right firmness for me—it seems the encasement makes them too pressuring. So that’s the major change in my thinking—“firmness” doesn’t say anything about pressure relief. I’ve been saying the Zenhaven is too firm. But it’s really just too pressure-y. Maybe if I cut the encasement off, it would be the perfect bed! But I can’t do that, need to have a bed to return.

This whole purchase has been 4,000x harder than I ever could have anticipated. But I’m getting a detailed grip on what does and does not work for me. The Zenhaven has great support, but not enough point elasticity for my preferences (and still could be too firm overall…really not sure). It took me almost 10 months to figure out how to phrase the problem correctly. But hopefully it will help me dial in the next purchase…because now that I’ve goofed up my topper, I really do need to find something else!

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Shoot. I thought if I could provide all this detailed information (and more) to the manufacturer they’d be able to help me tailor something a bit more specific. The salesperson was very kind and patient but said at the end of the day, I have to “start somewhere”—IE, go with a first recommendation as a starting place and then do the layer/cover swaps if it’s not perfect…and my recommendation is what they would give any “side sleeper under 180lbs.” It seems like there could be a lot of difference between me (135) and a 180lb person…besides just all the PPP info?

And the starting recommendation is a much firmer bed than the one I have now that I overall think could be too firm, and they for some reason just don’t carry N3 (WHY?). Hrggghhhh.

Anyway, I am disabled and the layer swaps are almost prohibitively difficult, especially within their 3-month return window. (Probably plenty of time for most, but a race against the clock for me!) I can hire someone to help me if needed, but I thought we could get things a bit more dialed to at least mitigate this. To his credit, he did help me walk through a few of the possible tweaks, but at the end of the day it was up to me to decide.

I thought it would be more like, well, if we know your hip is way lower than your shoulder with this combo, then this combo tends to straighten people out…or if we go with a stretch material, then we need to beef up the ILD…more of an in-depth understanding of how each piece works together and balances out, the part I won’t pretend to be knowledgable enough to do.

Instead it’s back to trial and error, which I knew could be part of it too…just was hoping it wouldn’t be such a rough stab right out of the gate. I think I’m wanting there to be more of a science to this, and maybe there just isn’t.

I do think it’s interesting that two different manufacturers have given me 2 different recommendations while both saying their first guesses work for 90-95% of customers…if that’s true, wouldn’t it be the same recommendation? Or maybe most people just aren’t as particular? Or maybe they just can’t handle any more research and swapping and give up…I’m very close to just saying…close enough, not an area of life I won, but I’ll dial it in in a decade when I can actually VISIT these places!

[sweetandsourkiwi]

As a testament to SleepEZ’s customer service, the guy who had helped me earlier actually called back a few minutes after our call ended to say he’d been trapped in a nightmare cs chat throughout our call because they are shortstaffed. He apologized if he had sounded distracted on our call, which he hadn’t, but it also might explain the somewhat vague recommendations. Really great service.

After waking up two hours early with an unhappy hip this morning, and a lot of thinking and questions about how I could dial in this order, I decided to swallow my pride at how many calls I’ve made and once again consult the SleepEZ team. I had originally been trying to work with the same salesperson, but this time I got a female agent in my size who’s also a side sleeper, so it was great to talk with her. I got a more detailed rundown of what I could get. It just helps to talk to someone else with hips! She also mentioned they can get closer to N3 by special order (yay!) if it’s required, which made me feel like I had more options and flexibility where I needed it. She still didn’t promise I’d be ordering the exact right thing right out of the gate, but I could tell she was listening to my pain points and not just considering a formula or chart.

I also found out some important information that isn’t clear from their site. I had been really torn between getting a topper+short mattress, or a mattress fully encased in 4-way stretch. If you get the 4-way stretch on a topper, it zips off but it also has a non-skid backing. The non-skid backing doesn’t stretch…this is the thing I’ve been cutting off my Zenhaven toppers because it makes them less elastic. This pushed me into the whole-mattress encasement camp.

I have a lot of fear returning the Zenhaven because while it doesn’t fit and isn’t that comfortable to me, I still sleep fine and mostly haven’t had alignment pains (until I mucked with the toppers too much.) I don’t want to blow my sleep and alignment and get into a million layer swaps as some here do! But I also have spent a lot of money for something that feels B- to me, with the added downsides of a not very durable boxspring and no ability to swap the 14ILD inner top layer when it inevitably dies. So, this may just have to be a leap of faith, and a few months more of testing and maybe (hopefully not) swapping.

Currently I am mulling over:
3" Soft (19-20) Global Talalay
3" Medium (30-32) Global Talalay (with the option to go closer to 28 which I am strongly considering
3" Medium Dunlop (she said if anything got swapped, it would probably be this to a firm)
All encased in a stretch cotton cover

For reference, I am sleeping on:
2 1.5" “raw” 14ILD talalay toppers
wool + cotton not very stretchy encasement
1.5" 14-19ILD Zoned Talalay
3" 25-29 Talalay
3" 30-34 Talalay
1.5" 20-24ILD Zoned Talalay

For further reference I am 134-138lbs side sleeper, prefer no-pressure since I have fibromyalgia and other conditions.

[Sensei]

Hey sweetandsourkiwi,

Thanks for the update.

I just wanted to comment that I think you are in good hands with Sleep EZ. Also, side by side comparisons of mattress / ild’s is sometimes misleading as the final finished product feels so much different between manufacturers.

Regarding the 9" example, my personal recommendation is to start with the firm on the bottom 3". More supportive and won’t make that much comfort difference on the bottom of the mattress. Regarding the middle 3", you should be ok with either one, they are ranges that adjacent to each other so not a huge difference. I totally agree with wanting to get it right without changing layer after layer. I would go with what Sleep EZ says on the middle layer, as they know much better how loose 3" layers work together. Thanks for the update.

Thanks,
Sensei

[sweetandsourkiwi]

Thank you Sensei. Your recommendation to go firmer seems to bear out in testing today. I was able to get a rough approximation of this build by testing:

1.5" 19 ILD unblended natural talalay (said Vita on the side)
1.5" 19 ILD (yes, two layers of the same thing)
6" 32 ILD Core unblended Talalay
No cover…since I’m going for the stretch cover (probably?) and really didn’t care for their stretchless one.

This build felt a hair too soft. Even though my shoulder jammed a little, my hip seemed to sink in a little too much, creating a stretch on my side that quickly became painful. I realize that 2 1.5" layers is not the same as 1 3" layers but for an overall idea…the build was too soft.

I could also try:

1.5" 32
1.5" 32
6" 32 (so yes, all 32, but broken into some layers)

This felt too firm, but like I was getting the right support. Made me think something in between on the comfort layers could be perfect.

Without any encasement, the Talalay really felt like Jello. I almost felt like my own breathing might wake me up! Wrapped in their unstretchy, wool-backed and backing-backed cover, the Jello disappeared (right along with the pressure relief!) It made me question if full pressure relief is really ideal. I don’t care for the pressure under my shoulder…but I didn’t care for that unsupported weightless feeling either, actually. Maybe the thinner cover isn’t ideal.

I did wonder if a firm layer on the bottom would be enough to get the hip support, or if a firmer comfort layer was in order.

I feel discouraged at being able to figure this out “at a distance.”

I ALSO found another quality issue on the Zenhaven that I wonder if it would qualify as a “weak link.” I can now feel through the top fabric that the top layer (and presumably lower layers) are constructed with the same flaw as the topper—essentially a twin sized piece of latex glued adjacent to a thin strip of latex to make a queen…or probably more likely, two twins that were glued together, then chopped off on one side instead of a little off each side, so the seam runs right down the middle of where I sleep.

I’m not sure how much to worry about this. I would just guess that glue doesn’t last as long as latex, and this is literally the point of the bed that is stressed the most. I could see where a middle seam wouldn’t matter as much, but right under the sleeper? I don’t like sleeping in the middle or the wall side, and because of the zoning I can’t turn the bed the other way.

True to what I was told, the Zenhaven is also starting to soften up a bit. I’m wondering if it’s going to get TOO soft…oy. I know it’s flippable, but I’m not real sure about the setup in flipped mode. What’s it called…differential or something…when the hard latex goes over the soft?

I am very on the fence. The part of me that wants to preserve my sanity and move forward into a life where I am not considering my mattress for multiple hours a day is ready to just keep the Zenhaven, which works fine. Some day when I am visiting a place with a good bed builder, I will build in some time to test and build my next mattress. Emotionally, I have a lot of guilt returning a mattress that was already warrantied once and could be tossed in a landfill (literally sick to my stomach). I do like that I have the toppers, they make me feel like I have ain inexpensive (relatively) replaceable part that protects the bed while letting me get a bit of that raw latex goodness.

The, there’s the part of me that wants to get my money’s worth, make a great long term investment, and put my trust in a manufacturer like SleepEZ. But doing all the design and swapping at a distance on top of a chronic pain condition that makes returns hard and knowing what’s me or the mattress is rather daunting…especially with no guarantee I’ll be good on what I get in the end. I know I can sleep on what I have now…way better than on what I’ve had in the past!

Trial’s up Monday, so I must decide by then.

SleepEZ cover samples arrive Tuesday (argh!). Wish I’d known that was an option sooner!

[Sensei]

Hey sweetandsourkiwi,

Just a few quick comments on this post:

Testing any build without a cover will always feel softer, even with a really good stretch the total mattress will firm up a bit with the cover.

Yes some of the Talalay manufacturers have to use cut pieces to make their queens, mostly this is done on the kings…not sure if this is a “weak link” but if you feel it, and glue issue it can sometimes be a problem. I hear your comments about testing without encasement, its just a different feeling, its just kind of helps directionally about feel.

Softening latex mattress is not a continuous issue, all latex will soften more in the beginning, as its getting conditioned, then it’s very gradual, so not to worry about this continuous softening “potential” issue…the technical data does not support this problem.

Good luck making final decsion, I don’t want to push you any specific direction, albeit I hope for mattresses not being returned…better for companies, less waste, etc etc…

Thanks
Sensei