I recently bought my first latex bed. Prior to this I have primarily slept on spring beds of what I would call medium firmness. I chose to change to latex because from what I understand they last longer and don’t sag as much over time.
The bed that I bought is 10" of Firm, Firm, Medium, Medium, Soft layers.
The bed is super comfortable to fall asleep in. In fact, I can’t remember the last time I felt so comfortable falling asleep. However, I have been waking up in the middle with pretty bad back pain in what I would call my middle to middle lower back. The pain often lingers throughout the day. It is around where my lower rib is.
I sleep on my back and generally prefer a medium firm mattress. I typically sleep well at hotels like the Westin, etc. which from what I understand have a medium firm mattress.
I have the option of swapping one of the layers out at no cost, but I can’t even figure out if the pain is being caused by the mattress being too firm or too tight since except for the pain it is super comfortable. Do you know what pain in the middle back is typically a sign of?
Typically pain in the lower back as you’re describing is caused by either a lack of sufficient support in the base layers or too soft or thick of a comfort layer on the top of the mattress allowing your back to hammock. To help diagnose your specific problem you might try removing either the top soft layer or one of the medium layers if you can temporarily sleep on it like that. If you need to keep all the layers to use the mattress then you could try moving the soft layer either in between the two medium layers or under them which would provide a firmer sleeping surface. Not sure who you purchased from, but I’d strongly suggest discussing this further directly with them as they would be best qualified to address your problem with their product. Hope this helps!
Congratulations on your latex mattress! and yes you are correct that latex is a very durable and can keep its qualities for decades.
Sorry about the back pain….coupled with it being really comfortable when you first fall asleep. As Bill was pointing out … In general, issues with “pain” earlier in the night tend to be surface comfort-related, but issues with “pain” in the morning tend to be more alignment (deep support) related, There will be a break-in and adjustment period for any new mattress or sleeping system as the mattress loses any of it’s “false firmness” and the cover stretches and loosens a little and also … the materials settle and your body gets used to a new sleeping surface that is different from what it is used to (see
post #3 here) and I’d be curious to know for how long you slept on the new mattress and your history with the previous one. Unfortunately, it would be difficult to pinpoint and give you any specific answers that would apply to specifically to you because there are too many interconnected variables and … “it depends” … suggestions that can help one person or even many people may be completely unsuitable for someone else because each person and set of circumstances are very different. There are some general guidelines as to what tends to cause back pain in post #2 here that you may find helpful.
A couple of questions, what latex mattress did you buy? Do you have any other information about the layers - height, formula, process, brand? And it’s 5 layers? This is important to give you any guidance on switching any of the layers, and how it may affect your support/pressure relief needs. Post #2 here I mentioned above has some good information about the many different symptoms that people may experience on a mattress and some of the most common causes behind them.
Hope this helps a bit and once you provide a bit more information I’ll be happy to go into more detail.
Phoenix
This was super helpful thanks for your help!
In the end the store recommended that we go Firm, Firm, Medium, Firm, Soft. I brought this home and switched it after one night to Firm, Firm, Medium, Soft, Firm and it is the most comfortable mattress I’ve ever slept on.
Thanks again.
I’m having the same issue with my new mattress (6" firm talalay core with 2" soft talalay topper). It’s been fairly comfortable but it’s significantly worsened my back issues. Been sleeping stomach, side and back with it.
It’s been about a week and a half. At first i thought it’s too soft… then i thought maybe it’s too firm… then i flipped the mattress over and slept on the 6" firm core which is now squishing the 2" soft layer at the bottom. I think it’s somewhat helped my back issues to a degree (still have it). Thus i think it was too soft. I will try a 2" firm on top of the 6" firm core when i get a chance to exchange.
I’ve been researching a bit more and i think maybe i should have maybe went Dunlop latex instead of talalay. I can see what people mean by talalay being less dense (even though it’s firm) than Dunlop now. i think i really need something dense (more like a dense hearty cornbread rather than a light fluffy cupcake). I think the sinkage is subtle but it really affects me and my bad back. also i feel like i may sink just millimeters more throughout the night than if maybe it was something more dense than talalay?
Can someone give me advice on how to proceed now that i am starting to figure out i need not only firm but maybe something more dense? Foam mattress? Dunlop? Coil? Hybrid? I will continue to test out my talalay mattress but i’m just getting ahead of the game in case it doesn’t work out.
thanks!
Based on the information you’ve provided, I would definitely recommend exchanging your Talalay layer for a Dunlop layer. At your weight of 165-170lbs, a soft Talalay layer is almost always going to be too soft for a stomach sleeper. We always recommend medium firmness at your weight and sleeping preference. Of course you’re welcome to start with a firm top layer to see if that works for you, but you may want to consider choosing between a medium Dunlop and a firm Talalay layer for the top of the mattress.
I wouldn’t be able to say if a foam mattress, Dunlop mattress, coil mattress, or hybrid mattress would be the best choice for you, that’s something you would have to decide for yourself and you may have better success asking that question in the general forum to get responses and opinions from as many different people as possible.
Thanks! I’m starting to find out that it may be a combination of the mattress being too firm in one sense and to “soft” in another if this makes sense. By that i mean that for some reason, even the firm core side i’ve been sleeping on for the last few night (i flipped it over so the 2" soft topper is on the bottom and i’m sleeping on the 6" firm core) has me sinking in a bit too much putting my pelvis and spine out of alignment.
On my stomach, my torso sinks in and the rest just stays stiff leaving me my back over extended. On my back, my butt sinks in but the rest of me generally doesn’t and again my back is extended. On my side i also, sink in around the pelvis and gets me out of alignment. YET it’s almost like to a certain point it’s “firm” enough to make me sore and i think maybe mess up my ribs.
It’s almost like the Talalay is a weird mix of not being able to prevent my heavier parts from sinking in too deep (heck i don’t even sink in as deep on my cheap “softer” couch cushion) yet firm enough to make my ribs and joints hurt.
I feel like i need something plush enough for pressure relief but a very dense dense plushness, if that makes sense, so i sink less (especially the heavy parts) and more evenly throughout. I’m just not sure what direction to head. Maybe i could get the 2" firm on the 6" core and add some sort of densely plush topper on top of all that? I don’t know. Maybe i need to go back to coils or something else? Problem is this mattress was expensive and i doubt i can return it.
It sounds like the mattress you have now doesn’t have enough options for adjusting the mattress to get it dialed in for your specific needs and preferences. This is one of the main reasons I urge customers to choose two 3" layers over a 6" core, because it gives you many more options to exchange layers or rearrange layers to get the mattress adjusted. You may want to contact the company you bought the mattress from to discuss your return options.
Thanks, actually I think it’s the new boxspring suspension slat that’s the issue. It’s like a slatted foundation that’s not completely flat (kind of convexed slats of wood) and is adjustable in tension. Last week, i took the mattress off the foundation and put it on the floor and it was a night and day difference. Something about the foundation almost had a weird mixture of sinkage and pushing up against me and mangling my ribs/spine. Hard to explain. I’m glad though that it may not be the mattress. Though i did also put a cheap foam topper on top TWO weeks ago that may have also helped. But it didn’t REALLY feel better though until, like i said took the mattress off the foundation (ONE week ago) and onto the ground. Next step is to see how it feels without the cheap foam topper while the mattress is on the ground.
That’s good information, and I’m glad to hear that you’re making progress! If you decide to replace your foundation, please note that we sell a slatted wood foundation that we get nothing but positive reviews on. It is kiln-dried, untreated Northwestern spruce, and it’s made specifically for latex and foam mattresses. It sounds like you already have the next step figured out, so let us know how it goes and let us know if we can be of any additional assistance!
Thanks! Well trying the mattress without the cheap foam topper and on the floor was definitely worse. I’ve develop a knee problem now (like the muscles and tendons are twisted out of place and stiff) from that experiment. This leads me to believe the greater issue is that it’s too firm or at least (like i said in the other thread) i’m sinking directly into the firm core that almost seems to push and pull my joints and spine out of alignment.
It’s almost like i need a nice dense, soft, comfy plush surface to sleep on that still has a supportive core with SLIGHT give. Unfortunately for me i’m unable to return the mattress but am trying to figure out potential ways to make this happen. I almost think i should have gone with some hybrid of springs and latex and some kind of plusher denser memory foam on top. I’m not sure how the retailer would help me with that but it really makes me realize it can be more difficult than it seems to get the right mattress.
I’m piggy-backing on this thread because I don’t know where else to ask
Background
Me: 5’0", 125-128 lbs, side to back sleeper (mainly side)
Current Sleep System:
Mattress: Sleep on Latex Soft Standard, consisting of (top to bottom):
Appx 3/4" wool and cotton batting in cover
2" 20 ILD dunlop latex comfort layer
6" 24 ILD dunlop latex support layer
Foundation: solid wood slats, 3" wide x 1" deep with 1/2" space between. Slats are screwed to the bed frame and to a vertical central support beam.
Conundrum
I’ve had my mattress now for four weeks. It has not been a wildly successful venture so far. I knew I needed to allow time both for the mattress to loosen up a little and for me to adjust as well, so I have slept on the mattress without making any changes (like adding a topper or mattress pad). And I have resisted the temptation to go back and sleep on my “old” mattress when the going got tough.
The mattress is much firmer than I expected, but not intolerably so. My sheets are a thin and stretchy cotton jersey so they are not adding any tension or stiffness to the mix. It took me a little time to get used to the “sleeping on top” versus the “sinking in” feel of memory foam that I was used to, but there have been periods where I have enjoyed the overall comfort and support.
With the thinking that comfort is what you experience when you first go to bed and support is what you wake up with, the comfort is not consistent: initially, I could not lay on my side for more than about 10 minutes before my arms started to fall asleep. I can now lay on my side for longer periods of time but there is still mild tingling and numbness which would seem to indicate the mattress is too firm for me. In terms of support, I’m now waking up with persistent low back pain lasting into the day, which I’ve never had before, which would seem to indicate the mattress is too soft. How can it be too firm and too soft at the same time?
I’m quite unclear in terms of diagnosis — which layer(s) is/are causing the problem? Is/are the layer(s) too soft or too firm? Too thick or too thin? The shoulder and back symptoms seem to point in different directions so I don’t know what to do to fix things.
Any help figuring out next steps would be really appreciated! I’m still in the trial period so I have the option of returning, but I’m most interested in figuring out what isn’t working so I can address that.
Hi Turquiose, thanks for reaching out! Normally back pain is attributed to the mattress being too soft, but based on the information you’ve provided, there’s a chance that your back pain is being caused by a lack of secondary support. If that’s the case, then a 2" 3" topper could be the solution to both the pressure point issues and back issues. Secondary support is what fills in the gaps between your body and the mattress. For example, as a back sleeper, secondary support will fill in the gaps between the mattress and the small of your back. If that area isn’t filled in or supported properly, your lower back muscles will work all night to hold that area of your back up, leading to back pain. For side sleepers, secondary support mainly fills in the gaps between the mattress and the area just below your ribs. Again, if the mattress isn’t doing the job of keeping this part of your torso up, your muscles take over and strain all night to keep your spine straight, again leading to back pain. With that said, there’s a good chance that a 2" or 3" topper will solve both issues at once. I can’t say in advance which would be better for you. They’ll both do an outstanding job in alleviating pressure points and adding more secondary support. The best way to summarize it would be to say that a 2" topper will make a moderate difference and the 3" topper will make the biggest difference.
Thank you for the quick response! If I understand you correctly, then it’s probable that the 2" top layer isn’t thick enough to provide adequate support/cushioning (either under my shoulders or under my waist)? That has been my concern — that I don’t have enough base support (e.g., sore back) and that what I do have is too firm.
If so, this makes intuitive sense to me.
I have a 2" gel-foam topper at home and I tried it last night on the mattress. I don’t really want to use the gel-foam topper as a long-term solution however (I’m trying to move towards less toxic bedding) but I thought it would be worth trying to see how everything felt. It definitely helped with the arm/shoulder issue, but my hips sunk in so much that I felt like I was sleeping at an angle and it caused some neck pain. I remembered reading something on the forum that placing a rolled-up towel under the waist/lower back could help provide added cushioning so I tried that. That seemed to even out the sinking problem, and, overall, this felt better than the mattress “as is”.
Given that, I’m now wondering:
if a 2" layer is too thick/soft (assuming the gel-foam might be equivalent to a soft talalay) and I should try to find a 1" topper? Or would a 2" dunlop layer be a little denser and perhaps avoid the sinking?
if re-building the mattress to have a 3" soft/comfort layer rather than a 2" (e.g., the traditional 3" Soft/3" Medium/3" Firm construction) would give me the right amount of cushioning (essentially adding 1" rather than 2")?
whether a zoned mattresses might provide the needed support at the waist/lower back (although, being so short, I’m also thinking it would be hard to get that zoning just right) – alternatively, I could make myself a little latex tube (to simulate the rolled-up-towel) for use with any topper and create my own zoning?
Any further thoughts on fine-tuning given the most recent experiment?
I won’t be able to say in advance which of the 3 options would work best for you, but I can say with certainty that there’s no direct comparison between 2" of gel foam and 2" of soft Talalay. The gel foam topper has more give to it, and if it’s a temperature sensitive material like memory foam, it will soften over the night putting you closer and closer to the firm mattress you’re trying to get away from. Generally speaking, 1" layers make such a minimal difference that it doesn’t sound like adding a 1" topper or changing the mattress so that it has a 3" top layer would be the complete solution, although either of those two options will be better for you than the mattress as it is now. I will also say this, Talalay is better than Dunlop at contour and pressure relief, and it’s also better at providing secondary support. Although Dunlop is denser and you don’t as much into it as Talalay, I don’t think it’s a good idea to use your experience with the foam topper to make a decision on a latex topper. Using our 43 years of experience, I would have to say that a 2" soft Talalay topper has the best chance to be successful for you given the information you’ve provided, although you’re certainly welcome to try a 2" Dunlop if you feel that’s going to be the best choice.
Hi Phoenix,
I have read through many of your posts, but alas I haven’t found anything on different types of pain. What I mean by this is muscle soreness vs. misalignment pain. I have a SleepEZ mattress and I’ve been rearranging layers over the course of several months now, but I can’t seem to find the best configuration. I’m hoping you can help explain why I wake up with muscle soreness after rearranging layers. I guess my expectation is that if the layer configuration is right for my body, wouldn’t my alignment be correct and thus my muscles relaxed (and I wouldn’t wake up with muscle soreness after the first night with the new configuration)?
As for figuring out what layer configurations to try, it seems like I’m kind of shooting in the dark and I’d like to figure out a more systematic way to test the layer configurations. Any suggestions? I have a little insight from what you’ve written about with regards to waking up sore and it being related to support layers, but it seems the combinations of layers are endless. For example, I currently have M (T) / S (T) / F (D) / F (D) (T=talalay, D=dunlop), should I try S (T) / M (T) / F (D) / F (D) or maybe M (T) / M (D) / F (D) / F (D)? (I have both a medium talalay and a medium dunlop.)
