Mattress topper to help with chronic shoulder pain (talalay latex?)

Hello,

A little background on my situation. For 7 years (until this April) I had been sleeping on a 9inch polyfoam mattress that I bought from sleepys. I noticed I developed pain in my left shoulder specifically when I try to sleep on that side (that is my preferred sleep position, followed by side sleeping on my right). The new mattress I bought was 6 inches of pocket coil with 3 inches of talalay latex (med-soft; 19ILD) on top. I think my shoulder was more comfortable but I returned the mattress after a month because of a defect in the mattress and did not want to deal with this particular business anymore so I went with a Luma Mattress, which is 8 inches of pocket coil with 2inches of natural dunlop latex on top (Luma said its roughly 24ILD, and its noticeably firmer than the previous 3 inches of 19ILD Talalay I had). After about 45 days of sleeping on this new Luma Mattress I notice I cannot sleep on my left side without shoulder pain (perhaps I should see a doc, and even on my right side I get shoulder pain as well). I bought the mattress with the thought that I might have to add a topper, so my question is, should I just at the 3 inches of Med-Soft(19ILD) talalay right on top of this mattress, or would that be too much? As I am essentially making the 2 inches of Dunlop latex into a transition layer. For context, I weight 180 pounds and am 6’1".

Hi dhaiman1,

Thanks for your stats, summing up your sleep history, and your most recent experiences with several new mattress in-home trials.

Part of the challenge with all of this is that there are so many variables involved and it’s often the case that a “symptom” is only produced after a “cause” has been in existence for some period of time previous to the symptom itself. It will often take a while for a symptom to show itself. Sometimes it’s a matter of a “cause” that crosses a line in terms of degree or how long it has been there before the “symptoms” become clear. When in doubt, it is usually much safer to do a thorough physical checkup to ensure you do not have a more complex medical condition.

Even though it is not possible for me to pinpoint the cause of your shoulder pains, what you describe seems to point to an inadequate comfort/transition setup or/and a possible arm position when sleeping on your side. Generally, 45 days should have given your body enough time to catch up with the change and readjust. Shoulder pain worsening with firmness increase is a good indicator that you need to move in the other direction either by exchanging the 24 ILD for a 19 …. or … by adding a 2’ or 3" of soft 19 ILD latex topper as you are thinking. As far as how thick this should be it is difficult to say.

I’d be careful with adding too much thickness as this can through your spine out of alignment if the mattress/topper combo is not supportive enough. On average, because thicker mattresses will “act” softer for most people. If you make changes to one of the specs (such as the layer thickness of the top layer) … then you may also need to make other changes to the other layers to compensate. Generally, you’d want to find something with “just enough” surface plushness to assist with contouring for your shoulders (and hips). I wouldn’t be able to tell you how much that would be, as there are so many variables involved, including your body type, the threshold of sensitivity, and of course your own personal preferences and needs.

Also, looking at some of your previous threads, I noted your concerns about sleeping hot, I’d keep in mind that the softer/thicker the mattresses or topper is, the deeper you’ll sink in and it will tend to be more “insulating” and trapping the heat around your body. If you are interested, there is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here.

Before considering your next purchase, it would be interesting to note the position of your arms for your side sleeping. Research has found that the most common reasons for shoulder, cervical and upper thoracic pains are connected with pillow issues (thicker/thinner or firmer/softer pillow) which could also affect pressure on the shoulders. As you stated, you’ve had shoulder pains with all your in-home trials, so it’s important to double-check this, as you don’t want your head to be too elevated, or not elevated enough. This is especially important when sleeping upon your side, as cervical /upper thoracic issues tend to be pillow-related.

Something that you may find assistive while you fine-tune your mattress would be to sleep with a pillow up against your back, allowing you to lean back slightly when sleeping on your side, effectively allowing you to “roll” your shoulder slightly forward so that you’re not sleeping directly upon it. Also, consider using a body pillow or a thicker pillow in front of you, upon which you may place your free arm. This also will take some pressure off of both of your shoulders. Finally, don’t forget to reassess your pillow whenever you get a new mattress to make sure that it is the proper thickness to fill in the gap from the outside of your shoulder to your ear, helping to take that weight off of your shoulder joint as well.

Hopefully, some of those tips will help you, regardless of your eventual mattress combination.
Phoenix

Hey Phoenix,

Thank you very much for this detailed response. I don’t think my shoulder issue is serious as I only really feel discomfort when I sleep for extended periods of time on my left shoulder. I also feel discomfort on my current mattress on my right side. I feel like if I were to go to a doctor he/she wouldn’t be able to do too much since the pain is really only when I lay for extended periods of time on my left side, but I suppose I should still go see a doctor. I thought the pillows I had were pretty decent but maybe since my shoulder doesn’t sink much into my current mattress (or at least it doesn’t feel like it does) I need a really high volume pillow. Putting a pillow behind my back when I sleep on my shoulder does help but when I fall asleep I suspect I go back to sleeping with more pressure on my shoulder. With respect to the previous mattress, I definitely did not have the level of discomfort I have now, the 3 inches of soft talalay over 6 inches of coil seemed to be better suited for me. It’s a little strange to me that Luma Sleep considers this current mattress as their “plush”, when it’s definitely not that plush (I guess it’s relative). I definitely would have preferred not to have had to had a topper but it seems like I have no choice. If you had to guess, how would 2 inches of 19ILD talalay on top of ~25 ILD dulop latex compare to 3 inches of 19ILD Talalay, all else being equal?

Hi dhaiman1.

Thank you for the additional information which only confirms that you are going in a good direction with fine-tuning your mattress.

Your guess is correct. I always discourage people from making decisions based on a firmness scale. Definitions of soft and firm can vary so much. Comparing the softness/firmness of a mattress you might consider with another mattress on the market no matter how widely available might be is not possible (except in general terms) because a mattress works as a whole and in combination with the individuals sleeping on it.

Any firmness rating scale is unreliable at worst and at best only possible as a vendor’s internal tool to compare mattresses made by the same company or/and … tested by the same individuals. E.g. an “hour-glass”, very curvy body profile, side sleeping sleeper might have trouble with most mattresses even in soft configuration. This 3-page more extreme alignment/pressure points case can give you a good idea of how different the perception of softness/firmness can be from person to person.

Nobody can tell for sure how 2" vs 3" Talalay topper on top of the current mattress will play out for you as you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are many interdependent variables involved (both personal and those of the mattress itself). Generally speaking, the difference between a 2" and a 3" comfort layer can be quite dramatic and also depends on a person’s weight, shape, sleeping positions, and where the weight is carried. Side sleepers will notice it more (they are more likely to go “through” a thinner comfort layer) and feel more of the properties of the layers below it. The thinner a layer is … the more you will feel the properties of the layers below it.

This said 2" 19 ILD topper upon your existing Luma mattress has a fairly high probability of giving you the shoulder pressure relief you need without detracting from the support necessary to keep your spine in neutral alignment during sleep.

Hope this helps … and it seems you’re getting closer.
Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for your response, I feel like I learn more about mattresses every time I read one of your posts.

I don’t think I was clear enough with this question so I would like to rephrase it. I had previously been sleeping on 3 inches of 19ILD Talalay latex (on top of a coil system) and I am currently sleeping on 2 inches of ~25 ILD Dunlop latex (on top of a coil system), my question is: How would 3 inches of 19 ILD Talalay latex compare to 2 inches of 19ILD Talalay latex on top of 2 inches of 25ILD Dunlop latex, in other words, how would 4 inches of latex (2 inches of 19 ILD Talalay above 2 inches of 25ILD Dunlop) compare with 3 inches of 19ILD Talalay. I ask this because I know what 3 inches of 19ILD Talalay feels like. I imagine it will still be somewhat subjective but I imagine it could still be somewhat comparable?

For what it’s worth I folded one of my pillows in half to see what it would feel like to have a much bigger volume pillow and I noticed (or perceived) it took some pressure off my shoulder. So I am inclined to buy extra latex fill for my Sleep Artisan adjustable shredded latex pillow and see what it feels like to sleep on.

Hi dhaiman1.

Thanks for your clarification. In a “yes and no” fashion, my answer won’t be that much different, except to say in a simplified version that all layers and components work together in a completed mattress and that you do not have the same pocket coil underneath. The more detailed version follows

You are looking at
2" Talalay (19 ILD) + 2" Dunlop (25ILD) + 8" pocket coil
vs
3" Talalay (19 ILD) + 6" pocket coil

You cannot assess the 2’ + 2’ vs 3" layers of latex in isolation because not “everything else is equal” The coils units are different and will impact the comfort/support you’d feel in combination with these layers. All layers and components work together in a completed mattress and there is no precise way for me to tell how each layer of foam is impacting the comfort/support you’d feel or need. This is the first part of the equation the other part is dependent on the sleeper’s BMI, body shape, somatotype, sleeping positions, and many other variables including “subjective” ones as you say

The two coil systems you’ve been sleeping on are the 6" Quantum Edge Elite Bolsa (used in your previous mattress) and the 8" Bolsa Coil used in your current Luma Mattress (which you report as feeling firmer and giving you shoulder pains). Coming from the same manufacturer these two units have a different height and number of turns but very similar coil count (1,057 for the 8" vs 1041 for the 6") which means they have the same diameter. They also use the same wire and gauge. However, on Leggett & Platt firmness scale, due to the difference in height the 6" coil unit has a higher ILD of 762 while the 8" has a 531 ILD which means it is less firm and supportive.

While the 2" of 19" ILD Talalay will definitely help with your pressure point relief and most likely alleviate the shoulder pain, you will also sink in a little deeper within the mattress. I cannot tell for sure if the new combination will be supportive enough to keep your spine in neutral alignment which should be your first concern. “Proper” alignment is one of the keys to achieving more time in the deeper stages of sleep.

This said Luma mattress is very well designed with a modular approach so an extra 2’ soft comfort layer can be added without deterring too much from support. I’d certainly jump into a quick chat with them or give them a call to discuss this as they have experience with both coil units and would be the best to help you fine-tune your existing mattress.

Phoenix

Thank you for that answer. I will first try a higher volume pillow(one that props my head up a little more since my shoulder is not sinking as far into the mattress as the other mattress) along with a new body pillow and see if that will remedy the situation as I would rather keep the mattress at it’s current firmness for overall support and of-course this will be a cheaper and more space efficient solution.