Hi Phonix
Do you know of any retailers in New Orleans that sell solid latex beds…I can’t seem to find any…I wanted to try a few out to get a feel for feel…
I’m going to try a 6 inch dunlop this morning…
I’ve called around and they seem to be very elusive.
thanks!
E
Hi Nola,
Of the ones I mentioned in the post #4 … Bedding Plus carries Jamison which makes all Talalay latex mattresses. A call asking if they carry any of the “all latex” Jamison mattresses should confirm whether they carry them. Jamison has the specs of all their mattresses on their website. If you put your zip in the retail outlet finder on the Jamison site … you will get a list of all the retailers in your area that carry them and if Bedding Plus doesn’t carry their latex models … then the others may.
Englander also makes some all latex mattresses using Dunlop latex so a call to the outlets that carry them asking if they carry any “all latex” Englanders will also confirm if they have them. If they do, then they (and the one you’re testing) will give you a sense of the difference between Talalay and Dunlop latex.
Myjustmattress seems to have an outlet in Metairie which is closer than the one I listed in Slidell (I edited post #4). Pure Latex Bliss are also high quality all talalay latex mattresses and all the specs are known as well (I have most of them if they don’t). EDIT: that outlet isn’t open any more so I once again deleted it.
With the others … my usual approach is to ask if they have any "all latex mattresses. If they say yes … then my second question is to ask them if they have all the “spec sheets” because you just want to check to make sure if there is any polyfoam in the mattresses and if there is … where in the mattress it is. I then tell them that I don’t want more than an inch of polyfoam maximum in the upper layers of the mattress (including the quilting). Their willingness to provide this … even over the phone … is a big part of whether I would choose to go there. Retailers that are evasive may also try to mislead you about the materials in their mattresses and there is no way to know what you are really buying. No matter how “great” a mattress feels … the weak link in the mattress will determine how long that “great feel” will last and whether it’s worth the price they are asking. The materials and construction of a mattress determine its “value” and how long you can reasonable expect it to last. Without this you are buying blind and it’s not even worth visiting a retail outlet where this information isn’t available unless you can find it elsewhere for the mattresses they carry.
A look at the law tag on any mattress will also tell you the percentage of materials in a mattress listed by weight … although it won’t tell you where the materials are located. The goal is to make sure you are lying on latex in the top layers with no more than an inch of polyfoam over it so you can get a sense of what latex feels like instead of what polyfoam with latex underneath it feels like.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
Ok I tried out the solid latex mattresses…it was a 6inch dunlop…one medium and one firm. I thought the medium was very soft and the Firm slightly too firm. (they left the plastic wrap on them)
The manufacturer said he could replace the dunlop with talalay and add 2 inches on top…if I wanted.
Also, it has 2 inches of bamboo fabric on top…I know you only like 1 inch or so.
I found a few places that have Natura and Jamison beds (with your help 
here in town that I’m going to go try out and fine tune my preferences for pressure points and alignment.
Which leads me to my question…If I’m by myself in trying the beds out is there a way to tell if my spine is in good alignment when on my side? Also when I sink into the bed…how do I know when it is too much at my hips and not enough at my shoulders? and vise versa? (I read your testing bed section and have a note sheet to take with me! But feel unsure about testing correctly.)
Also I notice some beds come with zoning on them…in theory this sounds good but it must be harder to pinpoint what you need when ordering online right? Softer at shoulders and firmer in the hips.
I also found two online stores that seem good…I was wondering if you’ve heard of them.
www.latexmattresscompany.com or mattresses.net
www.mygreenmattress.com or qualitysleepshop.com (this guy was very nice and helpful on the phone–after he realized I wasn’t a telemarketer calling with New Orleans Number that is)
thanks!
NOLA
Hi nola,
This is probably polyfoam or some kind of synthetic fiber used as part of the quilting in the fabric. This is also likely why a 6" core felt OK to you because it included softer foam on top of the latex which you would likely need for pressure relief (depending on your sleeping positions which I don’t know). This would be especially true after sleeping on a futon for 4 1/2 years :).
Whether you would prefer a couple of inches of softer latex on top would depend on whether this gave you the pressure relief you needed without it or how you feel about having a couple of inches of polyfoam in the upper layers of your mattress (and you would need to find out if this is what it is from the spec sheet).
To test for pressure relief is a matter of completely relaxing on a mattress in the position which has the most pressure points (for most people this is on the side) and sensing for any pressure on your hips and shoulders. I would also change positions away from and then back to your side (again if this is one of your sleeping positions) to see if you sense any feeling that you can feel the firmness of the lower layers to a degree that is uncomfortable. You can also “bounce” very slightly with your hips and shoulders to make sure there is a little extra “give” under them and you don’t feel like you are “hitting” a much firmer layer.
Testing for alignment would be done in all your normal sleeping positions. Completely relax until your muscles “let go” (just like just before you fall asleep) and sense for any tension or discomfort in your lower back , joints, or anywhere along your spine or a tendency to hold up your pelvis because it is sinking down too far. I would also make sure you don’t feel like your shoulders are being held up too high on your side (although this would likely have been discovered when you were testing for pressure relief). If someone is there with you (or you have a salesperson who really wants to help you) … they can also eyeball you to make sure your spine appears to be aligned (straight on your side and it’s natural “S” curve on your back) and that the “gaps” in your sleeping profile are filled in and supported (it should be a little difficult to slide your hand under the gaps).
A good salesperson or employee will help you with both and help you “translate” your feedback into meaningful terms.
With a good online outlet … they will take the zoning into account in their advice to you. With most zoned cores … the difference between the zones is fairly small anyway and wouldn’t really change the choices in the comfort layers … it would just help to support your pelvis up a little more. Zoning can be particularly helpful for those with wider shoulders which need softer and thicker foam for them to sink in enough but don’t want to risk the alignment issues that this can cause for the pelvis and lower lumbar. In most cases it’s not necessary but can make a “fine tuning” difference. Again … if you are ordering from an online outlet … they would normally have the knowledge about their mattresses and materials to give you good guidance … especially if you have done some local testing on mattresses where you know the layering. If they don’t have this … then your own research and testing becomes much more important because you would have to learn what they don’t know and I would hesitate to make a purchase from an outlet that didn’t know enough to give their customers good guidance.
Both of these are factory direct manufacturers that I know very well, think very highly of, and are manufacturing members of The Mattress Underground (meaning I believe they are among “the best of the best” in North America). It also means of course that if you order from either of these, you would be entitled to a 5% discount on your mattress because of your membership on the forum.
Hope this helps.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
I don’t think my last post made it into the system…may be lost in hyperspace 
Let me try to recreate it here.
I made it to several stores this week.
I was able to try the restonic…one was extra firm and the other was eruo top plush bliss…for me both were too extreme and I couldn’t learn much from them.
The other store had a variety of “latex” beds…a couple sterns and foster combos and a line of Jamison.
I liked the Jamison Opulence but i think it was a little too firm in the shoulder area…just slightly but this pressure may become exaggerated after sleeping for 6 to 8 hours.
I spoke with tw0 of your member sites to see what they could put together based on that preference…here’s what they came up with…Both were VERY nice and helpful…their beds are pretty different so I’d like your opinion.
Mattresses.com suggested:
33 6 inch talalay core
19 3 inch talalay
3/4 wool bamboo cover
mygreenmattress suggested:
40 6 inch talalay core
22-25 4 inches of talalay
11 1 inch of talalay
not sure about the cover but I think wool too
Do you think the 1 inch would break down faster? Also, I really don’t like the pillow top feel of some traditional mattresses (well I kind of like it and I kind of don’t)…is this 1 inch going to make it feel like that?
Tim at mygreenmattress thought their traditional latex mattresses would feel pretty different than the one I tested at the store…these are generally 3 layers of 3 inch talalay in my choice of firmness…what are your thoughts here. [price would be about the same I think (maybe a little less) and it could be flipped]
the price of the opulence at the store is pretty much the same as mygreenmattress and the mattress.com mattress set is maybe 25% less…
Also, what are your thoughts on a blended core? 60 synthetic 40 natural some say this is stronger other say natural is more durable? If there is no real difference would it make sense to make the core blended to save a few bucks?
Again thank you for your thought!
-E
Hi nola,
The session limit for the forum is set for 30 minutes and if a post takes longer than that then it’s usually a good idea to save it before clicking submit. I’ve been caught on this as well several times (on other forums as well) after writing a long post and I know how frustrating it can be!
Yes … without the specs of the mattress … it doesn’t really say much because names like “extra firm” or “euro top plush bliss” really have no meaning.
Stearns and Foster have several models that have “latex” in the name but as often as not they just have some layers of “unknown” lower quality mostly synthetic dunlop latex in them (usually “smart latex”) and they also have lots of polyfoam in the mix … most often above the latex layers so you are really lying more on polyfoam than on latex.
The Jamison’s on the other hand have layering that is known because they show the construction on the site. In the case of the Opulence … it is two x 2" layers of 19 ILD Talalay over a 6" layer of 40 ILD Talalay over a 2" firm polyfoam base layer. It also has a stretch knit unquilted ticking. This would be a very soft comfort layer over a very firm support core.
This would normally be close to “on the soft side” for someone of your height and weight who was a pure side sleeper (and I couldn’t find your sleeping positions) and it would be unusual that this wouldn’t provide adequate pressure relief for your shoulders. If you are a combination sleeper and spend time on your back then the comfort layers would likely be too soft/thick. If you spend time on your stomach then they would almost certainly be too soft/thick. Your own testing is of course always the deciding factor over “theory” though.
Mattresses.com suggested:
33 6 inch talalay core
19 3 inch talalay
3/4 wool bamboo cover
This would be a little firmer in the comfort layer (3" vs 4" and a wool quilted ticking vs a stretch knit). This would be offset a little bit with the lower ILD support core which would “add” to the comfort layers a little more than a 40 ILD core.
40 6 inch talalay core
22-25 4 inches of talalay
11 1 inch of talalay
This would also be “similar” to the Jamison but uses a slightly thicker comfort layer … most of which is firmer than the Jamison but with the top inch being softer for a slightly softer surface feel. I don’t know what the ticking is for this but if it’s wool then that would also act to firm up the mattress and add to the cost/value as well. If this was the same price as the Jamison it would represent better value because the materials used in it would be more expensive (more latex and also a layer of wool which is an expensive material). I’m somewhat surprised that the top inch is an inch of talalay in 11 ILD because I didn’t know that this existed. It may be a layer of softer polyfoam used to create a softer surface feel.
I agree with Tim (not surprisingly since he would know his own mattresses better than anyone) that his regular two sided mattresses would be much different in feel from the Jamison and of course being two sided are also using more quilting/ticking materials which add to the value (and cost) of the mattress so even though the mattress may use a similar amount of materials in it … the extra cost and benefits of finishing a mattress on two sides would make the two sided mattress a better value based on the cost of materials.
Overall … both of these would have similarities to the Jamison you tried but all three would be different from each other and use different approaches to “approximate” what you’ve tried and to accommodate your feedback. One uses a softer core and one uses a thicker comfort layer to gain some extra softness on top.
In cases like this when you are ordering online and you are looking at “approximate” equivalents rather than layering that is closer to what you have tried … knowing what your options are if either is not quite right would be an important part of the “value equation” for me.
A “pillowtop” feel is a term that really doesn’t have much specific meaning because how a pillowtop feels would depend entirely on the materials that are in the pillowtop and below it. In other words … it is a more a method of construction rather than an indication of softness or firmness by itself even though in most cases it is used subjectively to mean softer. A pillowtop with firm foam will feel firm while one with soft foam will feel soft. A pillowtop style of construction will feel a little softer than an equivalent mattress that used the same layering without a pillowtop and would be in between a smooth top and a separate topper in terms of feel if all the layers were using the same materials and the same ILD and were covered with similar fabric.
I think though that most people use “pillowtop” to mean the feeling of thicker than average comfort layers using softer than average foam (usually polyfoam in lower ILD’s) but being specific more than this would depend on knowing the layering of a mattress that created this feeling for you because there are just too many different types of pillowtop “feels” to know for sure.
An inch of softer foam in a mattress wouldn’t create this feel though because this is used for hand feel or surface feel rather than being used to create a “pillowtop feel”.
While none of the mattresses you are considering would be a pillowtop … probably the closest to that type of “feel” would be the Jamison which uses thicker layers of softer foam on top. The MyGreenMattress also uses thicker layers but the ILD of the comfort layers is firmer than the Jamison so it would be less of a “pillowtop” feel. The mattresses.net would be the furthest away from this type of feel because the comfort layers are the thinnest of all.
My personal feeling is that I would put a premium on buying a mattress that I had tried in person over the unknowns of buying a mattress online that had a different construction and would feel different. Duplicating the feel of a mattress that doesn’t use the exact same layering is an “art” much more than a science and has as much to do with the perceptions and weight and shape of the person as it does the mattress. When this cost premium becomes too large or say more than about 20% (using similar layer thicknesses and materials because of course using wool in one and not another or using more latex in one than another is also more expensive and thinner latex mattresses will be less than thicker ones) … then I would consider an online purchase with the extra risk and possible extra cost of layer or mattress exchanges if your “guess” wasn’t quite right.
There is information here about the differences between 100% natural talalay and blended talalay and post #2 here also has more information. The biggest reason that 100% natural talalay was introduced was to cater to the green and “natural” community rather than to introduce a more durable product. The manufacturers warranty on 100% natural talalay is 10 years and on the blend is 20 years.
Overall … I would be very careful about going with a comfort layer that was that thick and soft if you are coming from a much firmer futon. I would check again to confirm that the Jamison really was too firm and that you weren’t just perceiving “sensory confusion” from lying on several mattresses close to each other (where everything begins to feel the same or you lose your sense of how each one differs). The goal is to make sure you have good support and then add “just enough” on top of this to provide pressure relief. With 19 ILD talalay, 3" may not be enough to isolate you from the firmness of a 40 ILD core and you may need a thicker layer (which the Jamison had) while with a slightly firmer 24 ILD comfort layer … 3" may be enough although the layer itself may also be firmer (although still considered soft) than you prefer.
In the end … it may help if you found more than one “prototype” with known layering that was close to what you prefer (or you could clearly define how each was less than ideal) to help make an online purchase more accurate if you do decide to go in this direction.
Phoenix
Great stuff Phoenix! thank you.
I think you are right…I need to confirm what my body needs.
I’ll check the Jamison again…I do know the two others that were there didn’t make my spine straight…I had a sag in my mid section.
There is a Pure latex bliss dealer about 45 minutes away…I’ll check them out.
Do you know of any other Latex type mattress dealers in New Orleans Area?
Thanks so much…you have been a HUGE help!
Hi nola,
New Orleans is somewhat “mattress deprived” in terms of manufacturers and the outlets I listed in post #4 are the better choices I know about in your area. Of these … the various Jamison models and the various PLB models are the only all Talalay latex mattresses (not counting a base layer which is used for stability in the case of the Jamisons) that I know of in the area.
It would be nice if a factory direct manufacturer saw an opportunity to open an outlet or even start up in the New Orleans area.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
I have not made it to the Pure Latex Bliss dealer yet…Do you have the Layer Stats from them. I couldn’t find it on their website.
I tried a Serta Respit Latex mattress…the very nice salesman said it was all talalay latex but after looking on line it is not…
It felt very close to what I needed…supportive and my spine was straight and no pressure points.
He was offering the floor model for $1000
Custom Sleep design came up with this bed for my body frame…
2 inches 19 (34 inches) 2 inches 24
3 inches 28
6 inches 36
Just a reminder my body stats:
6 foot
175
bad neck.
mostly back and side (sometimes stomach) sleeper
He also suggested a queen low profile latex pillow.
$3200
looking forward to hear your thoughts
-E
Hi Nola,
Most of the PLB stats are in post #4 here.
The specs of the Serta Respite are here.
As you can see (and probably already know), and assuming that the convoluted foam is at least 1.5" … there is at least 2.5" of polyfoam and some synthetic fiber over the 2.5" of talalay latex … all of which would be subject to premature softening and compression. This is on top of a polyfoam support core.
If I was going to go in this direction (a talalay latex comfort layer over a polyfoam support core with some softer polyfoam in the quilting but not enough to cause “issues”)… I would probably consider something like this which has 3" of talalay latex (and you can choose the ILD) with 1.5" of polyfoam in the quilting and a 2.35 lb density polyfoam support core (which is higher quality than the Serta) and is selling for significantly less. I know the manufacturer of this mattress and think highly of him and the mattresses he makes.
Custom Sleep Design is a slightly different animal with the zoning however it does seem to indicate that your weight and measurements are somewhat more evenly proportioned and the zoning has less “differential” than the norm. this means that you would likely sink more evenly into a matress. The low profile pillow was likely in deference to your neck issue and the fact that a higher profile pillow on your stomach can aggravate neck issues.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
I hope you can make heads or tails out of this.
Ok…I was able to make the trek to test out the Pure Latex Bliss…the store had 3 beds Pamper, nature and Beautiful…
The beautiful was easily not supportive enough for me…felt as if my hips were dropping while on my back.
The Nature felt nice but again I felt my hips were dipping a bit (but not as much as beautiful) when laying on my back.
On the pamper I felt supported…my back was straight but the pressure on my side was just a little too much.
Here’s the thing…if you remember I tried the Jamison Opulence too and felt there was a little too much pressure on my shoulders when on my side too…in fact based on my memory I would have said the Jamison was more firm on my side than the Pamper…?
This is odd since the Opulence has 2 more inches of 19ILD?
I tried the Pamper with 2 inches of 14 and then with 19 topper…and both felt a little gushy in the hips…I felt I was dipping and trying to pull my hips back in place–makes sense?
Does the Jamison have a different, more firm cover? could that make it feel firmer?
Also…the Nature felt good when I was on my side but needed a little more support when on my back…so it almost seems like in between the Pamper/opulence and Nature would be ideal.
What are your thoughts? Make sense?
If I was going to go with an online dealer to make a bed fine tuned knowing these things what would you suggest? Layers and cover too since that seems to make a big difference.
The lady offered a “deal” of $1800 for the queen with a Sealy Foundation steel…she seemed a little confused when I asked about its construction so I didn’t go into it with her…do you think this foundation would work? Would this be in the fair price range?
The one thing I thought was strange is the sales lady touted the 20 year warrantee but then explained if the mattress has ANY stain on it the warrantee is totally voided? after fifteen years there isn’t supposed to be one stain? How would a stain effect the quality of the whole mattress…I pointed to a stain on the mattress located by the mattress tag, looked like the ink from the tab rubbed off onto the mattress, I asked would this be considered a stain…yes…so the tag the mattress comes with causes stains??? Mattress companies make themselves look so bad…either give a warrantee or don’t. --ok I’ll get off my soap box.
FYI A store right down the street had the new Pure Latex Bliss hybrid with gel infused layers…I didn’t want to get too interested in new technology but they are definitely firmer than the regular line.
Just a reminder:
I’m 6 foot
175 lbs
and have a bad neck that causes headaches if I sleep wrong…
Back sleeper (cause of neck) and side too…(I used to love to sleep on my stomach but neck won’t let me anymore
Thanks so much Phoenix! Where is you tip jar?
Hi nola,
I’ll certainly do my best!
OK … this is certainly strange. The pamper is 1" (not 2") of 19 ILD over a 6" 40 ILD core over a 1" 50 ILD stabilization layer with a stretch knit cover.
The Jamison is 4" of the same 19 ILD talalay over 6" of 40 ILD over 2" of base polyfoam (ILD unknown but likely firm) with a stretch knit cover.
These are certainly very different and for almost everyone 4" of 19 ILD would feel very different from 1" of 19 ILD if the layers below them were very similar (which they are). I can understand why this would be confusing and quite frankly it is for me as well.
These two are quite different so I would likely be looking at other reasons to explain why they both felt similar and especially why the Jamison felt so firm when it has such a thick layer of very soft latex.
My first thought is that somehow the mattress was mislabeled and that you may not have been on 4" of 19 ILD. Regardless of what the mattress was on … it seems very strange to me that this felt firm. Jamison also describes their cover as a stretch knit so this wouldn’t account for it either. With your weight and height … it’s also very unlikely that you were going through the 4" enough to significantly feel the firmness of the 40 ILD below it. It almost seems closer to the Brilliance. Did you happen to look at the law tag?
On the other hand … the Pamper would feel very firm to almost all people with only an inch to separate you from the firmness of the 40 ILD layer. I can see that this would not be comfortable on your side but even so … it seems that “a little too much” would be understating this for most people and it makes me wonder what base it was on. If it was on the sealy abzzorber base (more about that later) or another base that flexed … this may have made it softer than it would have been on a rigid base that didn’t flex. This is the only way I can explain that this was only a little bit too firm on your side.
This too seems a little odd when compared to the Opulance because the nature has 2" of 19 ILD talalay over 1" of 28 ILD talaly over a 6" 36 ILD support core over the 1" 50 ILD stabilization base. This should also feel much firmer and more supportive than the Opulance. I’d be curious to know as well what foundation this was on when you tested it.
Since your experience on the Pamper and the Nature is consistent (the nature was softer) and also the Beautiful felt like you would expect it (too soft) … it really seems to point to the fact that the Opulence may not have been the Opulence. that’s the only thing that makes sense to me. If anything I would have expected this to be closer to the Beautiful. Your experience on the Opulance is such an anomaly that I probably wouldn’t include it as a meaningful part of your testing in terms of knowing what layers would be best.
Was this for the Nature? If it was it seems to me like a very good price for the set although I would not personally choose the abzzorber foundation for a latex mattress because it is a flexing foundation rather than a rigid foundation which is generally better for foam mattresses which are designed to absorb all the pressure without a flexing boxspring.
I’m on this same soapbox all the time so I completely understand. Warranties are pretty much useless in the “real world” and only protect against manufacturing defects, not against “normal” wear and tear" such as foam softening. Besides the standard impression exclusion of all warranties (some are less and some are more), as you mentioned … stains are another exclusion which makes them pretty much worthless. Your best protection is knowing what is in your mattress and warranties have nothing to do with how long it takes for a mattress to wear out (which isn’t covered). They are selling tools and only protect against manufacturing defects … not the things that make most people want to return (or replace) a mattress. Even without the “stain” exclusion … any softening or change in a mattress that leads to the need to replace it usually doesn’t include an impression that is deep enough for a warranty claim. So now I’ll get of the same soap box and back to saying that the only meaningful “warranty” is knowing what is in your mattress
Based on your testing … with the caveat that the bases you were using could make a real difference … I’d probably suggest that your best odds were with 3" of 22-24 ILD talalay over either 2 x 3" layers of firm and x-firm or a single 6" layer of firm or x-firm. It may be safer though to go with soft/medium/firm or soft/firm/x-firm to have the option to change some layers around to get as close as you can and then build in a layer exchange to get to your final configuration. I would definitely make sure you had a stretch knit cover and whether it was quilted with wool or not would depend on what you feel best about regarding a fire barrier (the wool quilting doesn’t need a separate fire barrier). The wool quilting would be slightly firmer than the stretch knit without the wool. Either way though … it should be stretchy and not a woven cover to get a similar feel to what you have been testing.
Hope this helps … in spite of the anomoly.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
You know what…now that you say that about the bases…I think you are onto something!
My mom is also looking for a bed…she has bad arthritis and needs to get relief.
Anyway she came along too…I was surprised that she liked the Pamper mattress too…I would have put money on the fact that she liked softer mattresses especially now with her joint pain.
But get this…
When we went to the other store down the street to test the New Pure Latex Bliss gel beds they had 2 regular PLB ones…I wasn’t paying too much attention at this store because I had just did extensive testing at the other store on these beds and didn’t feel I needed to do more (obviously wrong)
Here’s the thing…She tested the two beds that were there and I asked her which she liked…she said this one…and pointed at the BEAUTIFUL! At the time we were both kind of confused because that was the one we BOTH knew right off the bat was not supportive enough at the other store…we barely even tested it at the other store it was so obviously wrong for us.
we both just wrote it off as being strange…I suggested she test them again when she brings my dad along (now I know not to go to the original store since the bases are wrong!)
I think you’re right, the foundations were flexing making the beds less supportive than they would normally be.
makes total sense.
Wow…you figured it out at a distance! the mattress whisper!
Now for the Jamison mystery…is that possible for me to go to two different bed stores and one mattress miss labeled and the other store have wrong foundations–totally altering the experience? Am I unlucky or is this common?
I’m going to go to another outlet to try out the Jamisons again…unfortunately the PLB is 45 minutes away…yuck.
wow…and I thought I was getting close!
Thank you so much Phoenix!
Hi Nola,
Well it seems that at least one of the mysteries was solved
The foundation issue is probably more common and it’s always a good idea to check … especially with thinner foam (and especially latex foam which is more flexible) mattresses where the foundation can affect the feel of the mattress more. Most places would know enough to use the appropriate foundations but some don’t. The clue was when she offered to sell you the PLB with a Sealy abzzorber foundation. This seemed odd to me. Maybe they have a bunch of extras that they wanted to move.
I’ve also seen the mislabeling/misrepresenting issue as well but this would be less common (although it’s happened to me in my mattress testing). In some cases … it’s the store that says it’s a more expensive mattress than it is (and in this case a check of the law tag should confirm this) but that’s not something that most people would think to do because they wouldn’t know what the mattress should feel like in the first place. Hopefully this would be an “honest” mistake. A mattress that is actually mislabeled would be far less common and in this case the store wouldn’t know it unless there was a staff member that knows what the mattress was supposed to feel like and noticed that this one was “different”. I’ve heard of both cases but the first is more common.
I would think it would be uncommon for both to happen to the same person on the same day but we all have our unlucky days … unfortunately. One of those comedy of errors. I’m sure curious if your testing confirms what happened with the Jamison though … it just doesn’t make sense any other way.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix
I went to a different store to test the Jamison’s to be sure the original store beds were not mis labeled…I think they were ok. but I have a question…the website lists the construction of the Opulence…but the elegance is not so clear. Do you know what the ILD rating would be for the mysterious High Resiliency Ultra premium core would be?
This appears to be the only major difference between the opulence and the Elegance…the opulence has a 40 ILD core and is maybe 10 to 20 less supportive and plusher.
Jamison Elegance
2" 19 ILD Soft Talalay Latex
2" 19 ILD Soft Talalay Latex
7" Marriott High Resiliency Ultra Premium Core
Also I noticed these beds are on box springs made for the mattress…is this common? How would do you think the opulence mattress would feel on a solid foundation?
I’m working on getting preferences between these mattresses and PLB…and then building a mattress. (good idea?)
thanks!
Ed
Hi nola,
High resilience polyfoam is the highest quality polyfoam available. It is more expensive than lower quality polyfoam but not as expensive as latex which means that the mattress would cost less than one that had a latex core.
The specs of HR polyfoam are much better than standard or HD polyfoam and approach latex in some areas. The term High Resilience (HR) is often misused though and by definition it means a high performance polyfoam that is 2.5 lbs density or higher, 2.4 compression modulus or higher, and 60% resilience or higher. It is a very high quality foam.
The ILD is not nearly as important because it has nothing to do with quality only with how much weight it supports at a certain compression level and you could test this by lying on the mattress to see if it kept you in alignment.
So the upper layers of these two would be very similar in terms of pressure relief but the support layers would be different. In your perception it seems that the polyfoam feels firmer to you which means that it could have a higher ILD than the latex although the latex would be considered very firm. Typically the ILD of a support layer is in the range of 32 - 36 but it can be both softer or firmer than this.
The Powerstack foundation used by Jamison is actually not a box spring (which has springs and is usually used with an innerspring mattress) but a non flex rigid foundation that has no springs in it at all. This is normally the best type of foundation for a foam mattress. Manufacturers make and recommend a specific foundation or box spring for each of their mattresses because they have to be tested together to pass the fire code. Some manufacturers insist that their foundation is used while most will honor their warranty with a suitable foundation or support base even if it’s not their own.
This can be a good idea if it is with the help of a manufacturer who is good at matching the layers they have available with your own testing and your height/weight/sleeping position. Without this … it can be much more risky because there are many variables involved in the construction of a mattress (including the type of quilting/ticking used) and there are also variables in how different types of polyfoam perform and in the construction of the mattress such as gluing the layers). If you could dupicate all the layering exactly … then of course your mattress would be very close (within the spec tolerance of the materials) but this is not always possible and doint it all yourself often involves “substitutions” incolving different layer thicknesses or different ILD’s. If you do go in this direction … it is critical that the outlet that you order from has accurate descriptions of what you are buying.
My own order of preference would be …
Buying locally from a good quality/value outlet even at a premium (I would consider about 20% for comparable components and construction or sometimes more to be reasonable) if that meant having the chance to personally test a mattress.
A component mattress that was purchased from a knowledgeable manufacturer who was experienced in matching your testing and statistics to the layering and materials available in their mattresses.
Doing it all on my own by buying various layers and the ticking/quilting separately from one or more sources and then putting it all together on my own.
Any of these can be good choices but of course the risk of getting it wrong is different with each choice (and #3 is by far the most risky of all). Which is best for each person depends on the level of risk they are comfortable with vs any gains in value and is part of each person’s “value equation”.
Some people play poker with real money, some play with chips or pennies, and some don’t gamble at all
Phoenix
Great Stuff as always Phoenix!
Yeah…I prefer the sure thing bet myself.
Ok, so you feel the Jamison beds are pretty good then, right…even with the non latex base layer.
Its surprising to hear the 19/19/40 would be considered a firmer mattress…there was one Jamison latex that was like solid rock!
how do you think Jamison and PLB match up together? Would you have a problem buying either one?
Also, the sales lady at the one store already tried to pull salelady BS on us…I’m not happy about the whole buying/selling process…I totally understand everyone needs to make a living but I don’t want to feel like I’m being played with either.
When we said we were looking for PLB she said they were 40% off…great! When we said we want two she said, oh we can make a deal on that for sure…at the end she got on the phone with her boss…spoke real loud so we could hear “oh, no they raised the prices THAT much?” So you get the idea. Its a shame cause the lady was very nice.
Anyway, any idea on how to approach buying in a store? I want to buy one and I’m forcing my mom and dad to buy one too…(you don’t even want to know what they’ve been sleeping on)…so I’d think there should be some room there don’t you?
Thanks again for all your help!
NOLA
Hi nola,
All mattresses have a combination of softness (on top) and firmness (in the support layers) and giving them a single rating can really lead to confusion. The Jamison is both softer than normal on top and firmer than normal in the support layers. This would be what I call a “differential” construction meaning the softer foams on top are much softer (have a much greater differential) than the much firmer foams below with no “middle” or transition layer in between them.
That would depend on the layering and how suitable it was for me and of course on the price (which may differ from store to store) but both of these are typically better quality and value than most of the better known alternatives. I would certainly buy either one if they were the best value available locally and I didn’t want to order online.
Fairly typical … unfortunately. There’s lots of online sources for brands like the PLB so price shopping is a little easier and keeps them a little more “honest” but many manufacturers like PLB keep pretty strict control over advertised prices so they typically aren’t allowed to advertise for lower. For example … the Nature typically lists for $2499 for the queen set at many places such as here and here but this outlet advertises lower (basically throwing in the foundation) and is $2199 and here is “on sale” for $2700. If they were to give you 40% off the “typical” price of $2499 for the set (a $1000 discount) then I would buy it in a heartbeat … but of course the discount would be off an inflated price.
Yes there should definitely be some room there (and as a side note I would make sure that they also test for the model that works best for them which may not be the same as you). I would be prepared with the best online price that you can find (and typically there is a low limit set by some manufacturers so you may not find too much variance) and then for a purchase of 3 would certainly expect a discount below the lowest price I found. Sometimes an outlet has little room to move if their prices are dictated by the manufacturer who will not allow them to be sold for less (and will threaten to cut off supply) but even then they have many ways to increase value (such as including delivery, extra products, foundations, pillows and other accessories for free).
Phoenix
Hi Poenix
I figured as much…
The mattresses were labeled with the prices you mentioned…but then she said 40% off…fantastic…once we said we needed two…she said GREAT we can give you an even better price (without us even suggesting it)…but she had to talk to her boss.
On the phone she spoke loudly so we could hear…“Oh, no they raised the price THAT much???” She came back to use with an 1,800 price for the queen in Pamper with the sealy foundation (wrong one)… so yeah it was a whole song and dance.
Is there pros and cons of a differential Soft top/Firm foundation compared to soft/medium/firm construction? Or does it all come down to feel, support and preference?
talk soon
E
Hi nola,
I’m just waiting for the day whan someone overhears a comment that goes like …
"What … you mean they lowered the prices THAT MUCH! Wow … I’ve been overcharging everyone. I can’t wait to tell mu customer that the price I quoted them is 20% too high!
But sadly I don’t think this is coming anytime soon.
One is not better than another but they can create a different feel. There is also not a real dividing line between the two (although most mattresses lean towards one or the other). 4" of 19 over 40 ILD is well into the differential camp though and for many people would have the feel of soft and cushy over firm and solid (if they weren’t too light) rather than a more “gradual” feel. Many would feel both the softness and the firmness (again depending on the weight, shape, and sleeping positions). Some pillowtops or even hotel beds are like this with a thicker soft layer on top of a firm support layer (usually an innerspring).
Phoenix