Memory Foam Mattress Help

Hi Phoenix,

Your guidance has been extremely helpful. I am considering two beds from Selectabed, the Soft-Pedic and the Copia from their higher end line. I think I have decided what I want my Top Layers to be (either 2 inches of 4lb Memory Foam on top of 2 inches of 5lb Memory foam or 4 inches of 5lb Memory Foam in either 1 or 2 layers. My question for you is regarding the 6 or 7 inches of support foam underneath. I have read in several posts your mention of liking “Latex” better than PolyFoam or HD-HR Polyurethane. Can you elaborate on the differences between these two support layers and, in your view the advantages and disadvantages of both?
I was all set on the Copia and then read a post from you that discussed the soft-Pedic and the benefit of the 3 inch Latex Layer, and I wanted to consider that one. I don’t mind paying the higher price of the Copia, and I am leaning that way, but I’m wondering if this could be a case where the lesser expensive model may be a better fit for me.

I am a side and back sleeper and want a Medium to Firm mattress that supports my aching lower back, but also gives good pressure relief for my shoulders and hips.

Thank you in advance.

EPmattresshunter

Hi EPmattresshunter,

Unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and specs and different layering combinations and how they combine together and can translate them into your own “real life” experience that can be unique to you … I would tend to avoid using individual specs such as layer thicknesses or ILD numbers or other complex specs to try and predict how a mattress will feel or perform for you and focus more on your own actual testing and/or personal experience. When you try and choose a mattress based on complex combinations of specs that you may not fully understand then the most common outcome is information overload and “paralysis by analysis”.

There is more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of PPP in post #2 here that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for once you actually sleep on your mattress but when you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked that they are familiar with, any special considerations you may have, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs or firmness options to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else.

Assuming that two materials you are comparing are good quality and durable versions of that material and neither one would be a weak link in the mattress … the choice between different types of materials or components in a mattress is just a preference or a budget choice rather than a better/worse choice and one person’s preferences (including mine) may be very different from someone else. For example I personally prefer the “feel” of sleeping on latex vs memory foam but there are many people who don’t like latex at all and prefer the feel of memory foam vs latex. I also “like” the “feel” of comfort layers that use relatively thin layers of latex on top of relatively thin layers of memory foam because they provide some surface resilience from the latex with some of the slower “sinking in” feeling of memory foam underneath it. Other people prefer the “feel” of a slower responding and more motion isolating memory foam top layer with some latex underneath it so the “surface feel” is provided more by the memory foam which is modified by the resilience of the latex underneath it. There are almost infinite combinations of “feel” that are possible by combining different types of materials and components in different thicknesses and positions in a mattress but they are all just preferences … not better/worse choices.

The upper layers of a mattress are generally the weakest link of the mattress in terms of durability and are the layers where the quality/durability of the materials is particularly important. The regular deflection/compression of a foam material is what softens or breaks down foam over time and the softer upper layers of a mattress will deflect and compress more deeply and more often than the firmer deeper layers so the deeper support core of a mattress underneath the comfort layers is rarely the weakest link in the mattress so having a latex support core vs a high quality polyfoam support core would make little difference for most people in terms of durability.

You will also “feel” the properties of upper layers more than deeper layers as well so in most cases you would really be comparing the “feel” of memory foam with the “feel” of latex rather than the “:feel” of polyfoam with latex. There is more about the pros and cons of memory foam vs latex in post #2 here but the most reliable way to know which type of material you tend to prefer would be based on your own local testing on a range of mattresses that have either memory foam or latex comfort layers.

While it would depend on the specifics of the polyfoam or latex you are comparing … in very general terms latex is a more resilient (springy), point elastic (contouring), breathable, and more durable material than most types of polyfoam but you would feel much less of these differences if you are comparing deeper layers in a mattress than you would if you are comparing layers that are closer to the surface so there would be much less benefit to using a latex support core under relatively thick comfort layers vs using a good quality/density polyfoam support core.

If a mattress uses latex In middle transition layers rather than in the comfort layers (where you would feel the latex more) or the bottom support layers (where you would feel the latex less) then how much it would affect the “feel” of the mattress would depend on the type and thickness of the layers above it and on the body type, sleeping positions, and sensitivity of the person sleeping on the mattress. If the latex transition layer is in the same depth or position in the mattress as another mattress that uses polyfoam in the same depth and position and they both had the same type and thickness of layers on top of them then depending on the person and the thickness of the layers above them the latex could add some extra contouring and resilience to the mattress which some people may prefer and which some people would probably notice more than others.

Again though … I would keep in mind that I don’t have any personal experience with sleeping on any of their mattresses so they will know more about the specific differences in “feel” between their different models and would be the best source of guidance to help you choose between the different options they have available.

Phoenix

Thanks so much. I didn’t realize you preferred latex as your top layer. Your comments make sense now. I actually do currently sleep on a old latex mattress, but am switching to Memory Foam after Trialing one for a week (on vacation) and visiting and trying several retail outlets.

I was just trying to determine if Latex below the comfort layer offered any real or perceived benefits over Poly Foam in terms of support/Firmness and mattress longevity.

Thanks again.

Hi EPmattresshunter,

Both polyfoam and latex come in a very wide range of firmness levels so any differences in firmness would depend on the specific firmness of the layers you were comparing. Outside of any firmness differences between one or the other … the main differences would be in how the different “properties” of each material feel to you which in turn would depend on the position of the layer in the mattress, the thickness of the layers above it (and the thickness of the layer itself), na on the body type, sleeping style, and sensitivity of the person on the mattress (heavier body types or side sleepers will compress the top layers more so they may “feel” some of the deeper layers more than those that are lighter or sleep in other positions).

If the polyfoam is a higher density version and is deeper in the mattress then it would make much less difference in terms of durability (see the quality/durability guidelines here).

None of their mattresses have any lower quality materials or “weak links” in their design.

Phoenix

I emailed christeli about their memory foam only beds asking for specifics. The response was not customer service friendly and certainly not transparent

“Memory foam is 5.3 and support foam is 2.0 density. The thickness depends on mattress, You can see that on our
site . We do not give out Ild information .”

I emailed purecraft beds about their tru essence 11 inch Mattress.
they are super friendly and happy to answer questions. They say the 1.8lb base foam is fine for heavier weights because their core is 2.4 or 2.5lbs- thoughts?

Hi Ari,

[quote]I emailed christeli about their memory foam only beds asking for specifics. The response was not customer service friendly and certainly not transparent
“Memory foam is 5.3 and support foam is 2.0 density. The thickness depends on mattress, You can see that on our
site . We do not give out Ild information .”[/quote]

I’m not sure exactly what information you asked for or how you asked for it in your email, but I wouldn’t necessarily agree with your characterization. While their reply (at least what you posted of it) doesn’t “come across” as overly gregarious, they did provide foam density information (some of which is already provided on their web site).

The memory foam mattress line they show on their web site has 6 models, and they list the density of their memory foam for each model and the thickness of those memory foam layers. The density of the polyfoam core isn’t listed, but they confirmed for you it is 2 lb, which would be a good quality material. I’m not sure if you were asking them to run down the complete specifications of their entire line up, but sometimes customer service representatives via email don’t have the time to do that (although it would be nice), especially when most of the information is already listed on their web site. They’re usually able to be more complete if you have a question on one specific item.

Regarding ILD, all the information you need to know is in this article. While the specs that affect the quality and durability of the layers and components are important to know … “comfort specs” such as ILD/IFD aren’t really necessary or even an important part of transparency in a mattress like this. ILD/IFD itself is also only one of several factors or “specs” that will determine how soft or firm a layer or a mattress will feel to different people and can sometimes be more misleading and confusing than helpful (see post #4 here). In this situation, all memory foam tends to be softer (in the low to mid-teen range, and there is variation on how this is measured via time/temperature so ILDs can be difficult to compare), so Christeli has opted to compare their feels to common Tempurpedic models, which for most people would be a more reliable/relatable indicator of comfort.

Many memory foam brands are also well aware that many of their customers may just be “phone showrooming” their mattresses and may be intending to purchase a similar mattress or combinations of layers and components elsewhere so they would have no reason to disclose ILD/IFD information to a potential customer. I would consider ILD/IFD information to be a legitimate part of what many manufacturers consider to be “proprietary” information and it wouldn’t be very meaningful and only add to the confusion for most consumers anyway.

If you desire more complete information, or are curious about a specific model or desire more complete information about how a model might compare to something you’ve tested locally, I’ll always recommend a phone call as opposed to an email or chat session, as you’ll get more complete and direct information in real-time from any company/manufacturer.

[quote]I emailed purecraft beds about their tru essence 11 inch Mattress.
they are super friendly and happy to answer questions. They say the 1.8lb base foam is fine for heavier weights because their core is 2.4 or 2.5lbs- thoughts?[/quote]

I’m happy you received some good answer to your questions from Pure Crafted Beds. As you’re probably aware, Pure Crafted Beds is a member of this site which means that I think very highly of them and that I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency.

The TruEssence 11" uses a 3" 1.8 lb polyfoam base (slightly thicker than most base foam), with a polyfoam core above that which is 2.4 lb or 2.5 lb (the mattress is available as a Firm or Cushion Firm), and on top of that is 2.25" of 4 lb gel memory foam. This mattress uses good quality and durable materials. The 1.8 lb in the polyfoam base is a little thicker than what is normally used, but the core is a very good density at 2.4 or 2.5 lb, and this would be a durable material for any weight range. The 2.25" of 4 lb. of convoluted gel memory foam is less than I would normally like to see for someone in a higher BMI range, so I would advise a slight caution there. I wouldn’t hesitate to contact Pure Crafted Beds via phone with any specific questions you might have, as they are quite knowledgeable and have experience producing many other styles of mattresses that aren’t listed on their web site.

Phoenix

Thanks Phoenix!

The reason I like email is I have clear notes to refer back to …this is all so confusing !

Phoenix!
I have another question lol
I think I have seen you say before that 1.8lb base foam is not great for the higher weight ranges? But in the post talking about the purecraft you seem ok with it. Can you elaborate? I’m confused
Almost all of these mem foam beds use 1.8 lb base foam

Hi Ari,

[quote]I think I have seen you say before that 1.8lb base foam is not great for the higher weight ranges? But in the post talking about the purecraft you seem ok with it. Can you elaborate? I’m confused
Almost all of these mem foam beds use 1.8 lb base foam[/quote]

I think that you’re confusing base polyfoam versus the comfort layers. I will provide a caution for higher BMIs and certain densities of foams, depending upon where those foams are located. This doesn’t mean that the foams would be inappropriate necessarily, but that there might be a tradeoff in durability.

With the upper comfort layers, I would recommend 2 lb for polyfoam versus 1.8 lb, but if 1.8 lb was used in the quilt I’d rather see it in the “inch or so” range.

I advise something similar for the polyfoam support core of a mattress for people of a higher BMI. 2.0 lb would be more durable than 1.8 lb, and 2.2 lb more durable yet (beyond this the density of HD polyfoam may not make much difference depending on how the density was achieved) and firmer would be more durable than softer (but probably require more foam above it), but none of these would likely be a weak link of the mattress depending on how much compression forces they were subject to and the thickness of the comfort layers. I explain this in a bit more detail in post #8 here, which was part of one of the links in the higher BMI link I provided earlier.

In the mattress you were considering from Pure Crafted Beds, this mattress uses a support polyform core of 2.4 or 2.5 lbs, which would be a high quality polyfoam, Beneath this is a base layer. Base layers are commonly 1" - 2", but this one is 3". Again, this is not the support core of the mattress, but a thinner base layer. The thinner base layer on the bottom of a mattress is evenly compressed rather than compressed more under the heavier areas of the body and less under the lighter parts of the body that have a larger surface area. The bottom layers will also compress less than the upper layers would if the same layers were on top of the mattress because the materials above them will absorb most of the compression forces and these forces also spread over a larger surface area as they travel through the mattress to the bottom layers. In this respect, I wouldn’t be as concerned with a bit of a lower density polyfoam base layer in the mattress you described.

Again, the recommendations I provide are meant as cautions to where you may experience slight shortcomings in durability over time for certain applications, but they aren’t necessarily meant to disqualify any particular item. I don’t recommend buying a mattress based purely on theoretical specs or what I call “theory at a distance” alone without doing some local testing first so you have a reference point for how all the different specs and combinations feel and perform for you. Different people (even of similar body types and sleeping styles) can perceive and interact with the same specs very differently. There are just too many variables in both body type (even at the same weight) and sleeping positions (there are many more combinations than just the three basic types) and personal preferences involved to be able to use specs alone to predict with certainty what any specific person will do best with.

Having said that … if you do choose to make a purchase based on “theory at a distance” … then I would go with the suggestions of the manufacturer or retailer you are working with. Each may have a different suggestion for you based on their knowledge of their specific designs and on their experience and feedback from their customers so you won’t find a “standard” set of suggestions between manufacturers based on specs alone. In general, they will use their knowledge of their mattresses along with the more detailed information that you provide on a phone call (about your specs, mattresses you have tested or are used to, and your preferences) to make a suggestion based on their best estimate about which of the mattresses they make or sell will likely suit you best. They will usually be fairly accurate for most people (most people do well with a range of specs or designs rather than an exact set of specs) but there is always the possibility that you are outside the “averages” they use so if for any reason their best suggestion doesn’t match what you need or prefer … then the ability to change the layering and/or their return or exchange policies can play an important role in your decision as well.

I hope that helps clarify things for you a bit.

Phoenix

Thank you that was very helpful!

Hi Ari,

You’re welcome.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix
This is what nectar sent me regarding their specs- they ignored me request for the ILDs
NECTAR’s foam layers include “Lush” 1-inch four lb semi-open fast-recovery gel memory foam, a 3-inch 3.5lb memory foam with a medical grade cooling and recovery levels and finally a 2.2lb high density base foam.

Do you think nectar specs would be better for higher BMIs then Wrights you got off the site
1.5" of 4 lb, 10 ILD memory foam on top of 2" of 3 lb 18 ILD high performance polyfoam on top of 1.5" of 5 lb 20 ILD high performance polyfoam (the high performance polyfoam layers have similar properties to memory foam without the slow response) on top of a 6" 1.8 lb 30 ILD polyfoam base layer

My problem mainly with a lot of these beds is my lower back isn’t getting the support it needs and I wonder if it’s not the 1.8lb base foam? An example would be the nest alexander medium which hurt my lower back also 1.8lb base

Which , by numbers , do you think would support a higher bmi better- and to be clear we are not even talking 250 lbs or over so this shouldn’t be that hard!
purecraft TruEssence 11 or the Wright with the new specs you posted? The new wright specs are not supporting any part of my back at all.

Still speculation that Nectaris not 100% transparent about where there bed comes from so I’d be hesitant to order theirs.

I am getting a little desperate for a good nights sleep

The 2.25" of 4 lb. of convoluted gel memory foam is less than in inches or lbs?

wouldn’t a higher BMI crush through the 3 inches of memory foam on top into the support foam? is the3" of 5.3lb Memory Foam dense enough to stop that from happening?

wouldn’t a higher BMI crush through the 3 inches of memory foam on top into the support foam? is the3" of 5.3lb Memory Foam dense enough to stop that from happening?

Sleep warehouse is recommending 2.25 30 ILD HD HR poly base (I am not sure how many inches yet) I was hoping for a higher ild (website says they have it)- is this supportive enough for a higher Bmi?

They also say The 3" 5 lb Aerus plus will be the best comfort layer - I think this would be nice and supportive?

Not sure what goes in between lol. What would be a good transition layer? I am hoping for an 11" thick bed

Hard to get them on the phone. I always get voicemail then wait to hear back

Hi Ari,

Some of the common IFD/ILD ranges for polyfoam are listed inthis chart from the Polyurethane Foam Association. While you of course want to know all of the layers of whatever mattress you’re considering, as all of the layers of a mattress work together, a 30 ILD would be on the generally accepted “lower” end of the spectrum for IFD/ILD of a polyfoam core for those of a higher BMI. The density of the foam at 2.25 lb would be good quality.

The Aerus memory foam at 5 lb would be a good quality memory foam, but memory foam itself is not a “supportive” material, but instead relies upon the firmer and more resilient foam layers and components placed beneath it to provide deep support and assist with maintaining a more neutral alignment.

A transition layer could be latex, microcoil, natural fibers, or buckling column gel (I wouldn’t recommend more memory foam at a higher BMI), but most common designs would probably be a layer of polyfoam. I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed is a good match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP as a reference point or blueprint and try and “match” every layer and component in your reference mattress as closely as possible or alternatively use a “bottom up” approach (see post #2 here).

When designing and building your own DIY mattress out of separate components, the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process.

Have you contacted Rocky Mountain Mattress? They are a site member here and have configurable memory foam options using Aerus memory foam plus high density polyfoam cores of higher ILDs. They are quite experienced with different memory foam designs and may be a good reference for you as well.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix
I lik the sound of latex as a transition layer :slight_smile: how many inches would depend on if it was medium or firm?

I had no plans on doing a DIY all I did was tell sleep warehouse that I was interested in a better base foam then the one for the bed they show online and it turned into this

I gave Rocky Mountain all the details about me and my bed woes etc , I requested specific info on one of their 12" mattresses and they recommended one of their 8" (sunrise) and one of their 10"(Sundance)
While I appreciate their recommendations I have no interest in an 8" mattress. Even the 10 at my bmi seems a little thin.
I think the highest basefoam they have is 29 ifd with a 2.5 rating - But that would be the low end of what’s recommended for higher bmi’s , correct?

Thanks Phoenix!

Hi Ari,

There isn’t an exact answer to your question, as overall comfort is not only determined by all of the layers contained within a mattress, but also the density, ILD, style of foam, compression modulus, layering and thickness of the layers used, among other things.

In general, the thickness of a mattress is just a side effect of the design and by itself isn’t particularly meaningful because whether a thicker or thinner mattress would be better or worse for any particular person will depend on the specifics of the materials (type, firmness etc) and on all the other layers in the mattress. Thickness is only one of many specs that are used to make different mattresses that perform and feel differently and that makes a mattress suitable for one person and not another. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here. Regardless of how thick or thin a mattress may be … the most important part of the “value” of a mattress is how suitable it is “as a whole” for your particular body type, sleeping positions, and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) regardless of how thick it may be.

The main benefit of a thicker mattress is that it can be more adaptable for heavier weights and multiple sleeping positions. It will compress from softer to firmer more gradually which means that there is more “range” of compression without the mattress becoming too firm for heavier weights (or parts of the body).

Thickness and softness work together and because thicker layers (or mattresses) can have a greater range of compression and are more “adaptable” … it’s also possible to use firmer top layers in a thicker mattress and still have good pressure relief because of the greater range of compression of the thicker mattress which can create a mattress with a firmer “surface feel” but that still provides good pressure relief and adapts well to the body contours.

One other benefit of thicker component-style mattresses that have multiple layers that can be rearranged or exchanged is that there are more layering combinations possible for changing and fine tuning the performance and feel of the mattress but in many cases this wouldn’t be necessary and in some cases can lead to a level of complexity that can make predicting how the layers interact more difficult (see post #2 here. )

So the overall thickness of a mattress that is either “needed” or “preferred” would depend on the combinations of the layers and components that are needed to achieve the design goal of the mattress and provide the PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) that can best match each person and their unique body type, sleeping positions, and preferences.

While knowing the specs that can affect the quality and durability of the layers and components in a mattress is always important … unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and components and their specs and different layering combinations and mattress designs and how they combine together and can translate them into your own “real life” experience that can be unique to you (which would generally be a very small percentage of people) … I would agree and tend to avoid going the DIY route and avoid using complex specifications to try and predict how a mattress will feel or perform for you. When you try and choose a mattress based on complex combinations of specs or only based on specs for single layers or components that may not be as relevant or meaningful as you believe it is then the most common outcome is “information overload” and “paralysis by analysis”. Even the best mattress designers in the industry are often surprised at what a mattress they design “should have felt like” based on the specs when they design it and what it “actually feels like” when they test out their new design. I would instad tend to rely upon the recommendations from knowledgeable manufacturers or layering combinations that have been shown to work well together. Ultimately, the only way to know whether any specific mattress design or combination of layers and components is a good “match” for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP with any certainty will be based on your own careful testing and/or your own personal experience when you sleep on it

Did you have an actual phone conversation with them, or simply submit an email to them? I’d recommend a detailed phone conversation with any business or manufacturer you’re considering, as you’ll be best able to receive the largest amount of accurate and specific information in the shortest amount of time.

No, they have polyfoam for support cores up to at least 40 ILD.

Phoenix