Misery on Latex

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

I’ve lurked for weeks trying to find an answer in this forum, but alas, had to create a new thread before I lose my mind from discomfort and lack of sleep.

I purchased a three layer latex mattress from Foam Sweet Foam. Bottom layer is firm Dunlop (ILD 32-34), middle layer is medium Dunlop (ILD 27-28), top layer is soft Talalay (ILD 20) - all three layers are three inches each, and I have them stacked SMF top to bottom. I’m rather petite, about 125 lbs, 5’4" and mostly a side sleeper. Sleeping on this supposedly soft configuration has been torture as I routinely wake up in the middle of the night with my bottom arm completely asleep. I know this mattress is firm for me because I tend to become a stomach sleeper on firm mattresses (it’s the only way I can fall asleep on a firm mattress) and in the middle of every night, when I wake up on this mattress, I can only sleep for the rest of the night on my stomach. The best way I can describe the feeling is that I am sleeping on a basketball - it feels that hard to me.

Before buying this mattress, I slept on a Simmons Beautyrest with a six-inch pillowtop, so I like my beds PLUSH PLUSH PLUSH. At ten years of age, that mattress showed the evidence of my sleeping in the same spot for that duration, so it became very uncomfortable. I did visit a regular mattress store before buying the latex mattress from FSF, and I liked the sleeping-on-clouds feeling of a pillowy plush Aireloom but I did not want to get another innerspring bed with attached pillowtop because the one I had broke down faster than I would have hoped (before the 10 years, I just kept sleeping on it that long).

I still have the opportunity to do a layer exchange at FSF, and at first I thought I’d swap out the firmest layer for a second layer of soft Talalay, so I would have a three inch base of medium Dunlop and two three inch layers of soft Talalay on top. I spoke to someone at Savvy Rest, who said that based on my size would probably be fine with those two top layers of soft Talalay and one bottom layer of medium Dunlop, but I think their ILDs are higher for both (SR’s soft Talalay is ILD 20-28 and their med. Dunlop is 30-39). I also spoke to SleepEZ and they recommended I go for the same combo. FSF is quite opposed to my stacking two soft Talalay layers and they say customers who have requested that have been very unhappy. However, I don’t like firm beds, I like the sink-into-bed feeling, and I don’t have back issues. My other ideas were going for a soft Talalay + soft Dunlop + medium Dunlop (or firm Dunlop) combo, or soft Talalay + med. Dunlop + med. Dunlop combo.

My problem is that I can’t tell whether it’s the bottom layers that are making the bed too hard or whether it’s the Talalay that I don’t like. I’ve tried sleeping with the mattress unzipped, in order to release pressure on the layers. I’ve moved the firm dunlop layer to outside the mattress. I’ve slept with the soft Talalay layer doubled over to create six inches, and I think that was a bit better, but it was too narrow for me fully relax and sleep well.

I went to The Clean Bedroom today to look into getting a three inch wool topper in hopes that it alone would give me the plushness I’m looking for, as well as relieve some of the pressure I’m feeling, and they had me lay on the Oyasumi (2" soft Dunlop over 6" med. Dunlop) and Oyasumi Dream (4" soft Dunlop + 4" soft Dunlop + 2" medium Dunlop). Without the topper, I’m afraid those mattresses will also feel too firm, and strangely the Oyasumi Dream felt firmer than the Oyasumi. So my thought was if I have to buy a three inch wool topper anyway, would it feel much different on top of of one of the Oyasumis than it would on my FSF S/M/F combo?

Anyway, I’m at a complete loss as to what to do with the layer combo I have now [which of the possible options could solve my pressure problems: soft Talalay + soft Talalay + med Dunlop, soft Talalay + soft Talalay + firm Dunlop, soft Talalay + medium Dunlop + medium Dunlop, soft Talalay + medium Talalay + medium (or firm) Dunlop, soft Talalay + soft Dunlop + med (or firm) Dunlop, and should I just keep the firmer layers and soften the mattress up with foam and wool toppers?]. I’ve read many of this forum’s posts, but have trouble figuring out what things mean in relation to what I think they mean. For example, I use the term pushback to describe what my mattress feels like, but that to me means it feels like pushing against a rubber ball. Even the poundcake versus angel food cake analogy loses me a bit - I guess one would sink more into pound cake and angel cake would push back?

Any advice is greatly appreciated as I absolutely dread getting into my new bed which makes me oh so very sad. I’d rather sleep on my couch. And unfortunately, it’s time for bed. :frowning: Thanks!

2

Hi PrincessAndThePea,

The Soft/medium/Firm would be a fairly standard configuration that “on average” would work well. When you are outside the averages though then your own best judgement and actual sleeping experience becomes more important than any “theory”

While I share the concerns about using too much soft latex because of the alignment risk that would be involved (which can lead to back pain and discomfort) … in your case and because of your lighter weight it would be less risky and may be a good option. Only your own experience can really know for certain but given your preferences and experiences it seems that it may be the only way to go that you would be happy besides adding a soft topper on top of your mattress.

I would keep in mind that any material including latex that is that soft and thick would probably soften significantly in 10 years. While latex is the most durable foam material … Thick layers of very soft latex won’t last nearly as long as thinner layers of firmer latex. Besides concerns with alignment … this is the reason that most manufacturers are quite reluctant to go below 19 ILD or so. In your case though your lighter weight works in your favor in terms of durability.

100% natural Talalay isn’t rated to a specific ILD … only a range and I believe that Savvy Rest soft is N2 which would be in the range of 20 - 25 ILD. Scott could probably tell you which rating their soft is and it’s quite likely that it’s the same (within the variance that is common to all 100% natural Talalay).

Most soft Dunlop is firmer than the equivalent soft Talalay and I would also keep in mind that wool gets firmer as it compresses over time and probably won’t be as soft overall as soft latex. While a thin layer of wool can be good for helping with pressure points and with temperature regulation … It is not as pressure relieving as softer layers of latex or memory foam.

I would consider trying some of the Pure Latex Bliss models which have various thicknesses of 21 ILD blended talalay in the top layers and have both 2" and 3" toppers available that are in the range of 15 ILD and very very soft. This would give you a good reference point for the softest latex that is available and how it may feel over various latex combinations.

You can see the specs of the Pure latex bliss mattresses here. The Beautiful for example has 3" of 21 ILD talalay over 3" of 24 ILD and a base layer of 36 ILD. The top two layers would be similar to having 2 soft layers of talalay in your mattress and then you could even test a 2" or 3" 15 ILD topper on top of this as well (although there is always an alignment risk with this much soft latex in the comfort layers). Pure Latex Bliss has a retail store finder on their website here so you can find the retailer that is closest to you and then all you need to do is make sure they have the Beautiful on the floor and carry the toppers so you can get a sense of what very soft latex in thicker layers feels like before you exchange any layers.

Phoenix

3

Thank you for your response Phoenix. I woke up too early this morning feeling beat up by my mattress and tossed and turned for two hours trying to get a little more rest.

There are a few retailers near me that carry LatexBliss products. I will call and ask what they have when they open today. Were you suggesting I check out LatexBliss in order to judge what the two soft layers feel like when put together so that I can pick the right exchange layer at FSF and/or to possibly buy a topper? I was hoping to stick with natural foam but I will definitely go see what they have.

As for the Oyasuni mattresses, even though dunlop of equal ILD is firmer than Talalay, do we know what Sleeptek’s ILDs are for their soft and medium layers? The salesperson at The Clean Bedroom kept repeating that the stretch in the mattress case and the individually wrapped layers made the mattress feel softer than what I have. Is that really possible? Especially in the regular Oyasuni with only two inches of soft over a solid six inches of medium. Whenever I questioned him, he would repeat that he has nine years experience of fitting people to mattresses, so he knows what works when a customer comes in describing what they want. It did indeed feel softer than the soft Savvy Rest with topper they had on the floor (a talalay/dunlop combo), which felt more like what I bought from FSF.

I was under the impression that Talalay allowed one to sink more into the layers, but if it is springy as described elsewhere, won’t that increase the pressure the body feels?

Thank you again for this wonderful website and your insight into these mattress matters!

4

Hi PrincessAndThePea,

Yes … the suggestion would be to give you a reference point that would approximate the feel and response of having 6" of soft latex in the top layers and also to test the softest latex available (the 2" and 3" toppers).

Blended Talalay is actualy a little softer and more pressure relieving than 100% natural Talalay in the same ILD (because 100% natural latex has a higher compression modulus which means that it gets firmer faster than blended Talalay as you sink into it more deeply) and it is also tested to the same standards as 100% natural Talalay (Oeko-Tex Standard 100 class 1 - “safe for babies”). You can read a little more about the differences between them in post #2 here.

Generally no. Dunlop is usually made to density specifications rather than ILD specifications although some manufacturers or distributors will test their Dunlop for ILD as well. You can read more about latex ILD’s in post #4 here. With Dunlop I would focus more on your own perceptions rather than the ILD specs which aren’t really accurate or at least specific for Dunlop and in many cases Dunlop ILD’s are only approximations anyway (and sometimes are very inaccurate if they were “translated” from other types of firmness testing)

The mattress ticking and quilting and ticking can certainly have an effect on the feel of the mattress and the compression of the foam layers immediately below it. Individual layers (with or without a separate cover) can also “act” a little softer than glued layers and since a covered layer will “slide” over the layers above and below it a little more easily than latex on latex (which is quite sticky) in “theory” it may “act” a little softer but I doubt if this would have an effect that could be noticed by anyone when compared to unglued and uncoverd layers of the same type and ILD of latex. You can read a little more about the reasons for and effect of covering individual layers in post #2 here.

You are correct and even though pressure relief and “feel” is more subjective … Talalay in the same ILD will generally feel more pressure relieving and has a deeper cradle than the same ILD in Dunlop (because you sill sink into it more) and Dunlop will feel more “supportive” because it will “allow” less sinking in. The “springiness” or resilience of a material wouldn’t affect it’s pressure relieving qualities which are more about “point elasticity” (how well it takes on the shape of your body profile), ILD, and compression modulus. Springiness or resilience is more about “feel” and both Talalay and Dunlop have a high resilience. Dunlop is often higher resilience than Talalay but the “ride” or “up and down” movement of Talalay is deeper so it can usually be felt more as “springiness”.

Phoenix

5

Welp, when I fall, I fall hard. I stopped by a local store that sells Pure LatexBliss mattresses and toppers, and ended up handing over my credit card for the World’s Best model (rated 10 out of 10 for plushness by PLB), a three inch 14 ILD PLB topper, and the latex covered foundation because I found I felt a substantial difference between the basic flat foundation and the latex one. So on Saturday night, I will be sleeping on 20 inches of latex! I am definitely like the princess who can feel the pea. So much for trading in my super plush pillowtop for a more streamlined midcentury modern decor-appropriate mattress.

The entire layer cake of latex felt much better than what I have now, and the World’s Best is plenty firm for me should the topper be too much softness (which I doubt will ever be the case). I was just going to buy the topper but they got me when they offered to give me the $500 topper for free if I bought a mattress. I guess it’s more like a $5000 topper. :stuck_out_tongue: I tried the topper out on a variety of mattress and mattress/foundation combinations and the World’s Best on the $1400 (eek - it’s the price of a bed!) latex foundation plus topper was what felt best. They also gave me a “discount.” No pressure, not at all! :wink: hahaha.

I found the all natural models to be too firm, so I went with the blended latex line despite getting into this whole latex mattress shopping thing with the intention of going as natural as possible. Comfort won out though.

I learned that I can only buy locally as I can’t imagine having to ship latex layers back. It’s going to be challenging enough to get them into my car. I can’t believe what I just spent on a mattress - I figured I’d spend around $2500 this time around (I spent $2000 ten years ago), but I tell myself that I spent double that with double the warranty. Obviously one has to draw the line somewhere ($22,000 Hastens - yikes!), but I believe in spending whatever it takes for a mattress. Cable television costs over $1200 a year, as do many cell phone plans, so three or so times that for a mattress isn’t so bad when you think about it.

Thank you so much for your time and advice!

6

Hi PrincessAndThePea,

At least you now have something unbelievably soft to fall into :slight_smile:

I think that has to be one of the softest “sleeping systems” I’ve ever seen someone buy and you weren’t kidding when you said you liked Plush, Plush, Plush.

It goes to show how different each person can be in terms of their needs and preferences and I hope you have the chance to share your feedback when you’ve had the chance to sleep on it for a while.

I’m happy that you were able to find a mattress that worked for you … and congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

Phoenix

7

What’s interesting is that it’s soft, but it’s still supportive at the same time, meaning I don’t really sink into it, I just feel less pressure from the mattress. It was very surprising to me that at my weight, with 12" of latex above it, the foundation made such a difference. I figured that 46 or 48 ILD (whatever is on the foundation) would feel no different than a platform but it sure does.

I probably rushed my decision a bit, but it’s done and I’ll just have to live with it because the restocking fee is just too high and I honestly don’t know what else I’d sleep on except possibly the Tempurpedic Cloud and I really didn’t want a Tempurpedic mattress.

From my post-purchase research of PLB, I did see that a lot of people purchased the Beautiful and added the topper, so there are definitely people out there buying soft setups!

I can’t believe I spent so much money, so hopefully I will be updating with a thread called Bliss on Latex :slight_smile:

8

Hi PrincessAndThePea,

Yes … this is typical of latex and is what PLB marketing calls “uplifting support”.

An extra 4" can certainly make a difference and creates a greater “range” of compression from soft to firm in the mattress (a 2" mattress for example would have a very narrow range from soft to firm while a thicker layer would compress more before it reached the same firmness). Some people wouldn’t feel much difference and for some it would be very noticeable.

You probably could have approximated the same layers with very similar results and perhaps saved some money by adding to what you have but what you purchased was “immediately available” and you could test it in person as a single sleeping system without having to take the time to make changes and add layers to your mattress which also has value.

There are certainly many who purchase the Beautiful and a topper, even on the forum here (although this is still not as soft as what you have) but it’s also one of the most common “complaints” in the PLB lineup in terms of alignment issues. For you though it’s clear that pressure relief and “Plush” trumps everything else and it appears that you may be one of the few who sink in evenly enough that you can get away with a mattress this soft.

I’m looking forward to your updates and I think that you have a mattress that would be as close to sleeping on a cloud as it’s possible to get :slight_smile:

Phoenix