Thanks for the prompt and detailed reply. I completely understand the nature of your opinion, and that it is concerned with the possibility that Essentia is using misleading advertising (as opposed to the comfort/performance of their product). Thatās really all Iām interested in as well, since I was able to experience the comfort level firsthand, and I havenāt been able to find any specific data about long term performance.
Anyhow, thanks again, that clears a lot of it up for me. My feeling at this point is that in the best case, Essentia is using natural latex product(s) in the core of the mattress, a petro-based foam as the outer layer, and a bunch of confusing (read: greenwashed) marketing terminology. And thatās annoying.
So if I wanted to grill these guys in person or on the phone, my top four questions would be:
does any part of your product contain any petroleum-derived chemicals of any kind?
If so, which component parts, and in what amounts?
If not, could you identify the patent associated with non-petroleum foam outer on the mattress?
Will you please provide the results of the lab test you tout on your website? Why, if not?
Does that sound about right to you? Not that I expect straight answers on any of this, but I want to see/hear these guys be evasive with a $3k sale on the line.
So perhaps the most important question to me: if you were in my shoes, looking for the āhealthiest possibleā (awfully imprecise term, sorryāI hope you take my meaning) foam based mattress, with comparable performance and feel to the Beausommet what might you be looking at?
I couldnāt care less about the brand name nonsense, I just want something that makes our backs feel a bit better, and doesnāt reek of chemicals.
There is a big difference between āsafeā (which is always a relative term and brings up the question of āhow safe is safeā), green (and the claims about various mattress materials that are used in greenwashing marketing), natural (which is also misused and has little meaning unless the meaning and context is also defined), and organic (which is also completely misused in marketing claims all over the internet).
There are many materials that are generally recognized as āsafeā that are not in any way green, natural, or organic. MDI memory foam is an example of this. There are many MDI memory foams (more commonly made in Europe) that are OekoTex tested and certified for the presence of harmful chemicals and VOCās to the limits of the OekoTex testing standards.
So the issues I have with Essentia are some of the misleading claims and contradictions that are on their website. These include on their front page (among many others) ā¦
This is true ā¦ but Essentia doesnāt sell an organic mattress and their mattress doesnāt appear in the records of any organic certifying agency that Iām aware of. In the US ā¦ āorganicā is regulated by the USDA (USDA certified organic which can use the USDA organic logo) or GOTS (which is acceptable as an āorganic standardā but canāt claim to be USDA certified organic). For a mattress to be actually organic ā¦ the mattress as a whole needs to be certified ā¦ not just the ingredients. For most people ā¦ organic ingredients or in many cases ānaturalā ingredients when organic is not available is acceptable but this varies from person to person.
In their case ā¦ there is nothing to fully identify which of their components are organic, which are natural, and which are just āsafeā. They are using the typical marketing approach of āclaimingā a proprietary material that is widely available to other mattress manufacturers and offering no evidence to support their claims. They sell through āstoriesā that canāt be verified rather than through truly educating people about their materials. Of course if it was widely known that their āingredientsā were the same as lower priced mattresses (although these may use different combinations or construction methods) ā¦ the would lose their āmarketing edgeā. They depend in other words on the willingness (and naivete to some degree) of the ānaturalā, āorganicā or āgreenā community and consumer groups who buy products that have unsupported claims attached and their tendency to āwant to believeā and to pay a lot of money to manufacturers who say the things they āresonateā with regardless of the facts.
As I mentioned they donāt make āorganicā mattresses. while some of their components may be organic and some of the layers may be made from āpure hevea milkā clearly some of them are not.
They donāt ādefineā healthy or what they mean by this and donāt provide the details of any testing (such as the āColumbia testingā) that has been done on their materials. Again they are counting on people who āwant to believeā to take their claims at face value.
I could go on about the claims they make and their lack of validation but it is all over their website and would only be repeating what has already been said in this and the other thread.
So your questions are good ones and there are many more followup questions you could ask depending on their answers and also depending on how much time you want to spend with a manufacturer whose intent appears to be to mislead their customers. There are too many high quality alternatives IMO to spend a lot of time with a particular manufacturer when they have already shown for years that they have little intent to answer the more meaningful or specific questions that are asked of them. Until itās less profitable to use these tactics than to provide meaningful information, this type of marketing will continue to be very profitable and companies will continue to use them.
This is a very difficult question to answer unless each personās definition of āhealthyā is defined. All materials will āoffgassā to some degree but the question is really āare the VOCās harmfulā rather than ādo they exist at allā.
For example ā¦ the act of making any foam ā¦ including latex ā¦ includes ingredients that I wouldnāt eat or could be harmful in certain circumstances. Most foam manufacturers wouldnāt release the exact chemical formulae that they use anyway and even if they did they would be misinterpreted or not understood by anyone with a non chemistry background. Chemicals that are harmful separately can be completely safe when combined and stabilized. Sodium Chloride is an example of this where both sodium and chlorine by themselves can be harmful but together they can become sodium chloride or table salt.
The real question is āsafetyā for most people (outside of the natural and organic community who are looking for more than just āsafeā and whose value equation is more specific and targeted to specific requirements). This basic question of āsafetyā can only really be answered by testing organizations who test mattress materials for harmful compounds or VOCās. All types of mattress materials are certified by these organizations including polyurethane foam, memory foam, latex, various fibers and fabrics, and other materials. If a personās definition of āsafetyā includes" natural or organic then this restricts the materials they would allow in their mattress. All of these terms exist on a scale and are somewhat relative.
The first step for me would be to decide the type of materials you are comfortable with. Most people who are focused on greater levels of safety or natural materials would be focusing on either latex (blended or all natural Talalay or all natural Dunlop) and on various natural fibers such as wool, cotton, horsehair and others. Innersprings would also generally be included in this list except for those who were concerned with any electromagnetic issues that comes with using steel.
My first choice would always be to do some initial research into manufacturers and outlets in your area that you could trust to give you accurate information and could help you ādefineā what you were looking at in terms of either safety, natural, or organic components. Once you have found the better outlets that are knowledgeable about the issues that are important to you, have a selection of mattresses that have good quality and value (as you define it), and are knowledgeable and transparent in the information they provide ā¦ then choosing a mattress becomes much easier and doesnāt involve āuntanglingā claims that have no substance behind them.
Iām assuming you are in or close to New York which means that you have many good options available to you. Post #2 here includes a list of many of the better options in the NYC area and post #7 here includes more information about many of them and lists them in various categories which may be helpful.
Hi Phoenix,
I found this forum after finding Sleep Like The Dead, and I wish I had found it earlier than I did; would have saved me much pain.
Iāve been looking at Natural Latex Beds (>90% pure latex) and MyEssntia was on of the manufactors I have looked at; after having read this thread and others like it elsewhere.
The Beausommet (firm) and the Dormeuse (plush) are fantastic mattresses. They use the 6+lb foam on the very top. I found them to be too firm and too plush, and very expensive. I can tell you that they feel more like a Sealy Radiance mattress (like amemory foam that responds much faster, but not as fast as a Dunlop latex or even a Talaway latex); itās an absolutely fantasic feel, but these two models donāt feel right for me.
The Super 8 is a nice medium feel (perfect), and the Energie Opus is very plus (too soft). They use the 5lb foam. This foam is more like a tempurpedic feel; which is very nice, and yet responds much faster, but hafl as fast as their top two models above. A knee impression takes about 10 seconds to completely restore, but it gets mostly there in under 5 seconds. A little bit too long once you try the top end models, but its really comfy and nothing like a gel based or tempur foam.
I understand your frustrations, and after reading some of Jasonās replies; I agree with your concerns as well. All Iām saying is that its a fantasic foam, and I like that the core is allegedly pure unblended dunlop processed latex. I donāt like the prices though
Iāll add something for you to consider as you continue to mull over the mystery foam; it absolutely off-gases. Every mattress and every pillow has a strong odour that some have commented. Its not offensive, but its close to being over powering. and it vaguely smells like vanilla. Its a sweet smell. And my belief is that itās definitely not natural, and because itās sweet the brain is predisposes to wanting to believe it is natural. Does that help you in your analysis?
Iād love a smoking gun that would help me haggle a $1000+ discount for the false adverting
Next post will be for other alternatives in the Toronto area. I was going to go Tempurpedic, or Sealy Optimum, or Serta iComfort, and itās a long story. Tried Dunlop and Talaway latex at Ideal (http://idealmattress.com/memory_foam_mattresses/) while looking for good local memory toppers as you suggested to one disgruntled member who sought to make the best of a bad situation; specifically a LI Talaway GL latex topper over a Serta iComfort Genius mattress/ And Iāve tested the OMI OrganicComfort line; its fantastic but really really expensive. And the Sealy SmartLatex. And all the innersprings and GelBased and Tempurpedic mattresses. And ill be looking into the obasan based Latix models sold through Grass Roots.
Iād really love to find a 6+" pure latex dunlop latex 32-36ILD (medium) core under 2-3" high quality soft memory foam with quick responce topper that feels like a 19-25ILD Talaway topper and costs <$2000. Is it possible?
In post #29 of this thread it links to the patent application which indicates it probably has a latex core and then memory foam is poured around this latex on 5 sides. The lab test analysis of their materials that was sent to me indicated that the material poured around the latex is probably memory foam that uses MDI as the isocyanate. Thatās probably why they felt like a memory foam mattress and the thinner layer with a highly resilient material underneath (like latex) would give it a feel that was a combination of the two materials.
The smell could come from anything but some types of latex have a sweet smell like you are describing.
Youāve probably seen this but the Toronto list is in post #1 here.
Memory foam is a low resilience and slow response material (although there are various degrees of how slow response they can be) while latex is a very highly resilient and fast response material so you wonāt find any version of memory foam that feels like latex. Having said that ā¦ with a thinner memory foam topper over latex you can create a āfeelā that has some of the characteristics of both. I would call some of the manufacturers or retailers on the list and ask them if they make or sell something like this (and there whould be several who do or at least could make something like this). This thread from another forum member in Toronto may be helpful as well.
After some research and readings on this website and others I thought I was going to purchase either the DreamFoam Mattress Ultimate Dreams, or the Ultimate Dreams Latex Mattress.
Today we went to Macyās (yes, I knowā¦) in NYC to try some mattresses (it was hard to find any latex mattresses around).
We tried the somthing similar to this and this.
My wife liked the softer one better and thought I felt my lower back on it and preferred the firmer. My wife said it was also pretty comfortable.
We also tried the tempurpedic cloud luxe and cloud supreme. we didnāt really like either.
We went on to try the Essentia line close by and actually really liked their classic 8.
My wife usually prefers a softer mattress but she really liked this one.
And this is the reason I am adding my comments/questions here: didnāt see anywhere a reference to how comfortable this mattress really is. We donāt really care about the ānaturalā or āgreenā aspects (although this will be a plus).
Questions:
What do you guys think about the quality of the mattress itself (leave lying aside).
It is now seems to me that the most of the showroom (maybe even the more expensive latex mattresses) are actually a latex core/base with wither latex comfort layer or a MF layer. But online, somehow it is the opposite: i.e. core/base of foam (HD/HR or other) with some (very little) latex and then again MF/wool for comfortā¦ why is that?
Can you elaborate on the different construction?
Even if you have a higher latex layer- why would it be the top layer and not the support layer? I am a bit confused about thatā¦
I understand the later will be cheaper but then why bother and put 2 or 3 or even latex between two foam layers???
How will the Ultimate Dreams Latex Mattress compare (if at all since it is totally different) to the feeling/support/quality of the Classic 8?
Where in NYC can we try something similar to the Ultimate Dreams Latex Mattress?
are there anything online or in NYC that will be similar to the feel of the Classic 8? Anything else we should consider?
Some other notes: we wanted to love the could luxe- but we didnāt. We don;t want to pay too much, but it is important to us to have a good mattress that will last and will be good quality.
Comfort is subjective and relative to each person. One personās ācomfortableā is another personās āhorribleā. A subjective sense of comfort alone is also one of the worst ways to buy a mattress. A much more objective way to test a mattress is for what I call PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preference).
If you havenāt read it already ā¦ the first place I would start is post #1 here and the information it links to (which is perhaps the most important post on the forum). Scanning the information there will answer most of the questions in your post.
The Essentia Classic 8 is a fairly simple mattress with 2" of 5.25 lb memory foam over 6" of Dunlop latex. Both of these as well as the cover materials are good quality ā¦ although they certainly donāt justify the prices they are charging. A couple of inches of memory foam over latex can make a very comfortable mattress for many people who prefer this particular combination of materials (and assuming that the type of memory foam and the ILD of the latex was suitable for them). Some would love this combination and others wouldnāt. If someone was comfortable with the very high price they would be paying for these materials ā¦ then at least there are no obvious weak links in the mattress.
Most of the major brands use polyfoam in the comfort layers not latex which is the worst combination for a latex mattress because you would be sleeping mostly on polyfoam. the mattresses you are describint are actually not the norm for most local stores (at least in the major brands). I donāt know which āonlineā merchants you are comparing to but the variety available online is similar to local stores. You will find almost every combination of materials at different online manufacturers and merchants just like you will locally. Some have latex hybrids, some have all latex, and some have memory foam, and many variations of all of these. Major manufacturers build their mattresses for āshowroom feelā not durability and tend to use lower quality materials in the comfort layers which is the āweak linkā of most mattresses. This type of construction tends to break down much more quickly because the polyfoam they use in the comfort layers is not nearly as durable as latex. Polyfoam ā¦ even in the lowest grade ā¦ can be very comfortable initially, it just doesnāt last and the loss of comfort and support that comes when the comfort layers soften and degrade isnāt covered by a warranty and manufacturers know this. Better manufacturers (not just online but all over the country) use higher quality materials in the upper layers (and in all the layers for that matter) at every price point compared to the larger manufacturers because they are much more responsive to their local (or online) customer base and their reputation instead of shareholders and the profit margins of mass market retailers and longer supply chains. They sell based on real quality rather than on advertising that sells the sizzle and not the steak.
Because the comfort layers provide most of the āfeelā of the mattress and they are also the weak link of a mattress in terms of durability in most cases. The support layers are of course an important part of a mattressās construction and performance but they are not the most important part of the durability of a mattress. Again there is much more about this in the post I linked earlier and the information it links to. if you only have say a thin layer of latex in between other lower quality foams it can affect the performance and "feelā of the mattress (which is what sells the mattress because you canāt feel quality or durability) but the lower quality layers will be the weak link of the mattress and when they soften you can lose the comfort and support that was the reason you bought the mattress. If this doesnāt trigger a warranty exchange (which it usually wonāt) the larger manufacturers donāt really care because when it comes time to replace the mattress in a few years then their current advertising about their supposedly ānewā models will lead most consumers to buy the same kind of mattress and make the same mistakes all over again. Selling mattresses that donāt last very long to people who donāt know any better and without having to do a warranty exchange in most cases is a very profitable business. It keeps investors happy.
Post #2 here talks about the ways that itās possible to compare one mattress to another (every mattress feels different to different people so this type of comparison would only really apply to each personās perceptions) and as you can see the only way to know this for you would be to compare them both in side to side testing. The materials are an apples to oranges comparison and too different to compare in any meaningful way based on specs and because what you would feel with the Ultimate Dreams is mostly latex which is a fast response material that has a more āon the mattress" feel and with the Classic 8 you would feel much more of the top 2" of memory foam modified by the top part of the latex underneath it (you would āgo throughā thee top 2" into the latex) and memory foam is a slow response material with a more "in the mattressā feeling. They are very different.
The support of each would depend on how quickly the support layers āstoppedā your heavier parts (pelvis) from sinking down into the mattress and would depend on the ILD and compression modulus of the polyfoam compared to the ILD and compression modulus of the latex. This information isnāt known. Again because these two mattresses are so different ā¦ to know the relative difference in āfeelā, pressure relief, or support for your body type and sleeping style you would need to test them side by side in real time and in person.
If you tested a mattress with 2ā of memory foam over a similar layer of latex (assuming you know the ILD of the latex in the Classic8) then it would be a more meaningful comparison and if you tested a latex/polyfoam hybrid with similar layering it would be a more meaningful comparison to the Ultimate Dreams.
Some of the better options in and around NYC are listed in post #2 here. There is also a more categorized list with more detailed descriptions of some of the merchants in post #7 here.
If you call the merchants listed and describe the layering of a mattress that you were interested in then they could tell you (hopefully anyway) if they carried a mattress that may approximate it. It still probably wouldnāt āmatchā it though because even if it used the same materials, the softness/firmness or version of the materials may be different. It would be an impossible job to keep a list of the mattresses that each merchant carries with all the changes that are constantly happening so a phone call and a description of the layers or generic type of mattress that you are looking for is the way to find mattresses that are somewhat similar.
If you follow the steps in the first post I linked you will have the best odds of finding the āexpertsā (and knowing how to recognize them) who in turn will help you find a great mattress that will meet all of your needs and preferences and has the quality and value you are looking for.
We in the industry applaud your efforts to call a spade a spade on this so called green washing and down right lying. The bellow link is the FTCs response to MyEssentia and their false claims.
In Part it said The FTC alleges that Essentia made unsubstantiated claims that its mattresses do not contain VOCs, are chemical-free, have no chemical off-gassing or odor, and are made from 100 percent natural materials. Moreover, the complaint alleges that Essentia claimed that tests show that its memory foam is free of VOCs and formaldehyde when, in fact, tests do not support these claims. For the full article you can go to below link
I wish someone in Canada would stand up to this false advertiser!
Unfortunately it doesnāt seem to have changed their approach much in terms of the other claims they are making that werenāt challenged by the FTC (see post #3 and #4 here).
Even other organic mattress seller will tell you there is no such thing is 100% natural latex.
Why do they charge 2-3 times the price of other āorganic naturalā latex mattress? They advertise as all natural and prey on your social consciousness.
My first mattress came folded and frozen. It had to thaw and then I found it dipped in the middle. They waived the 9% handling and recycling fee and allowed me to return it with option to try another mattress. But if the second mattress didnāt work out, Iād pay 9%. I wanted to give them another chance. The second mattress came and it was slanted on one side. 3 weeks after I returned the second mattress and chasing after them for my refund, I should get 91% back soon. When asked if the mattress would go through quality control again, they replied that theyād investigate to see if it is part of a defective batch. And if it was, the 9% still applies as it goes towards handling and recycling. This is after several unanswered emails to 4 people within their organization. I wondered if they were a going concern risk. If not, my experience indicates they may very well be! So much for being a social conscious store, thatās false advertising too!
Iām still having a hard time finding a good mattress. I think as long as it doesnāt contain polyurethane foam, I should be good.
My previous mattress was 12+ years old. Not sure why that mattress didnāt give me any side effects? But the previous 3 mattress Iāve purchased have. Sleeping on the freaking floor right now.
Yes Iām very familiar with their construction and the materials they use as you can see in the posts I linked in my reply in the other topic.
If you follow the 5 steps in the mattress shopping tutorial one at a time you will have the best possible chance of finding a mattress that is the most suitable, the most durable, and the best āvalueā for you based on all the criteria that are most important to you.
they list Oeko Tex 100 Class 1 certification. If you read closely, they are careful to say that itās their dunop ingredient that this applies to, not their full mattress. When I went to their site, I thought maybe they were finally trying to be transparent and put substance behind their claims. Seems the opposite is true: they are just using higher standard certification to trick customers.
I thought about these guys also before I went with RoyalPedics.
I donāt see anything negative really from what theyāre using to make their mattress.
The only negative I can find is from the fire-retardant material they use for goods exported to the US. Which is a Kevlar type of cover. And we all know Kevlar is made form some type of Chemical polymers created by the DuPont company.
So basically a ānon-toxicā mattress inside, but all thrown out the window because of US-Regulations with in turn makes it not as healthy.
My Essentia is more transparent than S@atva. Their chat-line blatantly said their mattress were āchemical-freeā.
Check out this page. Theyāre mocking the Certipur-US program. LOL (I have to agree with them).
The only negative thing I can find about their mattress is the Kevlar used to pass US Fire-Safety Regulations. However, I found out that you can send in a prescription to them to order a mattress w/o the Kevlar material.
Other than that, whatās so bad about them? They use Dunlop Latex, Organic Cotton Cover and their mattress have been tested for VOCās and itās a lot lower than āCertipurā standards.
And the VOCās are from the natural latex? So that shouldnāt be a problem. Compared to VOCās from lets say Petroleum foams.
Also, theyāre right about this claim. I fell for this from a popular US e-tailer.
In all cases, petroleum based foam is used, with 2-15% of the petroleum being replaced with soy or cedar oil, allowing the product to be promoted as ānaturalā or āeco-friendlyā.
They also list the chemicals used in their mattress here.
Cone essence * Diphenyl diisocyanate
an ingredient used in the production of natural latex foam and polyurathane foams.
Emulsion of Hevea brasiliensis milk in water
Hevea brasiliensis milk
Hydrolyzed corn * Phenol-melamine resins
-used in the production of natural latex foam; this component is what creates the flexible properties to the foam.
Mostly their exaggerated / misleading / or deceptive information on their site and prices that are exceptionally high compared to other similar mattresses with similar materials.
Diphenyl diisocyanate: This is a chemical used to make polyfoam or memory foam (not natural latex) and is consistent with the results of an analysis of their so called ānatural memory foamā
Waxes styrene-butadiene copolymer: Styrene Butadiene is synthetic rubber.
There is much more about Essentia and some of the misleading claims they make and some forum discussions with them in the rest of the topic we are posting in along with this thread and posts #3 and #4 here.
That would depend entirely on who you are dealing with. If you are dealing with a knowledgeable and reputable supplier then they would be able and willing to tell you exactly what you are buying and the type and blend of the latex. Of course if you are dealing with a supplier that misrepresents their product or in some cases doesnāt have the knowledge to know exactly what they are selling then you canāt be sure whether what you actually receive is what you thought you were ordering.
When you make decisions based on these types of overly broad generalities without considering the specifics then you will often end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Well, they use terms like āgelling agentā which no one know what chemical is used, Why not just say we use āchemical A, B and Cā, followed by a bath of Chemical D.
I donāt think itās realistic to expect this type of information about any mattress material (outside perhaps of natural fibers or fabrics) because it would have no meaning to 99.9% of people that werenāt material scientists.
If you were to use these types of criteria as part of a purchase decision then there would be very few mattress materials of any type that would āqualifyā for a purchase.
