My Green Mattress/Quality Sleep Shop Review

[phoenix]

Hi ProfZ,

I’m sorry to hear about your experiences with My Green Mattress. They are certainly very unusual and very different from the many other members here (and thousands of others) that have purchased from them who along with me hold them in very high regard. Their quality, value, knowledge, and service and their track record of success is among the best in the industry.

Just for the sake of clarity and balance as well … I wanted to make some comments about some of the comments you made so that others that read them understand not to take them too literally and also understand that while they apply to your parents’ experience that they certainly wouldn’t apply to the large majority of others that deal with them or even that purchase a similar mattress.

The Organic Dreams mattress arrived and immediately didn’t work on top of their curved wood slat base. When they had talked to the owner, Tim, about this when purchasing the mattress, he felt the weight of the bed and short distance between slats wouldn’t be a problem. Nevertheless they felt as if they could feel the slats through the latex. I didn’t understand “The Princess & The Pea” syndrome until I drove in that weekend and happened to try it myself. I found the mattress had a durable but relatively soft tan ticking cover, and looked like it had nice workmanship albeit some wavy sewing lines.

While I’m not sure of the specifics of your slatted foundation, it would be unusual for someone to feel closely spaced slats through 9" of latex even if it had softer layers. These types of flexible slats are “the norm” in Europe and used under millions of latex mattresses (many of which would be thinner than the organic dreams) with great success. Although they can change the “feel” of the mattress for some people because they are an “active” layer that responds to pressure … they do provide a suitable support system for a latex mattress. I and most other manufacturers would probably have thought and said the same thing … at least based on “averages”.

After doing some research we learned that Latex International’s pure Talalay softens ~17% which essentially was making a medium ILD feel soft.

The actual percentage that a latex layer softens will vary with the type and firmness of the latex and the amount and depth to which it is repeatedly compressed and different types of fatigue testing and different circumstances and people will also produce different results. The type of softening that you are mentioning would generally happen over a longer period of time and wouldn’t be something that happened quickly. Outside of defective materials (which unfortunately was happening on occasion for a period of time with LI latex) … latex is among the most durable foam materials in the industry and does a better job or maintaining its ILD and firmness than other types of foam materials, some of which can lose 50% or more of their firmness over time (although this would generally be lower quality materials). With polyfoam for example an “acceptable” level for loss of firmness from flex fatigue would be in the range of 25% to 30% and lower quality materials can be much higher than this. Foam softening of less than 20% over the useful life of a mattress would be inside the range that wouldn’t have a significant effect on most people unless their mattress was already “on the edge” of being too soft for them and was enough to take them outside of the comfort/support range that was suitable for them and latex in a suitable firmness range will consistently be less than this over the longer term.

Three layers of that is not providing anywhere near the adequate support to keep the spine in alignment and we were surprised this recommendation was made in the first place by the owner. After suggesting “bourbon and Nyquil for a good night’s sleep” to my parents, along with several suggestions about putting a tighter cover on the mattress, Tim agreed to “firm up” the support at their insistence. One of the medium layers was switched for firm latex, for a fee, and all was well after additional pillow changes to suit the new mattress firmness.

I would keep in mind that any recommendation that is made by a manufacturer would be based on their “best judgement” using the information they have available, the testing of the customer, and on the “averages” of many other customers that they had dealt with over the years and these types of recommendations are always subject to each persons actual experience because a mattress that is too soft for one person can be too firm for someone else with a very similar body type and sleeping positions. This is as much of an art as it is a science and there is no way for anyone to be able to predict which combination of layers would be the best “match” for any particular person with certainty. Even though this layering was too soft for your parents … it would have been too firm for others that are in a similar weight range or had similar back issues.

Support is also often misunderstood and many people believe incorrectly that “firmer is better” or “more supportive” when the real goal is to keep the spine in good alignment and this requires the type of contouring support that allows some parts of the body to sink in more and some parts of the body to sink in less and this will vary on an individual basis. There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support/alignment” and “comfort/pressure relief” and “feel” and how they interact together. The suggestions that were made were certainly “in the range” that would work well for many people in your parents’ weight range.

Fast forward several months and now both parents were having lower back issues. They felt like the mattress was sagging and when I visited them I felt it, too, after laying on the mattress for ~20 minutes. Mom had seen a colleague who had recommended massages and some physical therapy which was not helping. On the occasions she was out of town she had no back problems sleeping elsewhere. Recognizing that the mattress again was providing insufficient support, Tim suggested adding a firm topper- or spring system to the bottom of the mattress. He indicated that they could try some “mock-ups” of different configurations at the shop but they understood that something feeling comfortable for a few minutes at the store is not always a sufficient indicator of how much the support the mattress will provide- which you’d only know from an overnight trial. With two totally different configurations my parents were starting to feel that My Green Mattress was an experimental endeavor in which they were the test subjects. Sure, the mattress looked nice enough, but both of them were having identical back issues and they needed confidence in a recommendation.

All mattress choices and testing are an “experimental endeavor” no matter where you buy it or which manufacturer you are dealing with. Again I would keep in mind that there are so many unknowns and variables involved and differences between people that nobody can predict for certain which mattress design will work best for any individual person. Outside of actually sleeping on a mattress over a period of time … personal testing is the most reliable way to predict whether a mattress will be a good match for any particular person and taking the time and care to test different configurations and looking for feedback on each of them is a sign of a manufacturer/retailer that has the knowledge and experience to understand this and knows the limitations of any “theory”. This would be especially important when a customer has unusual issues that puts them “outside the averages” for most people.

Around the same time our kid’s My Green Mattress was surprisingly leaving some latex body impressions as our large dog liked to hop on and lounge in the same spot daily.

You may have been one of the unfortunate ones that had defective latex in your mattress (either that or the latex was too soft for your dog’s weight). This was a known quality issue with some of the LI latex and was the source of a great deal of frustration and some lack of confidence in the durability of their latex.

I found your website, started doing research on my own, called a number of shops around the country for guidance and spoke with some orthopedic colleagues about how to provide good mattress support and pressure relief. From everything I’d learned- and I’m a researcher by trade- the mattress made for my parents didn’t have sufficient support for the spine. Consensus from many folks I spoke with as well as medical literature differed from the options Tim presented, and also accounted for sleeping preference (stomach, back, side) as part of the mattress configuration equation. Soon enough it didn’t matter as dad was in tremendous pain and could barely move. An MRI confirmed multiple bulging discs in his lumbar and lower thoracic spine- just where mom was having pain as well.

If someone is experiencing back issues on a mattress then it certainly wouldn’t take a medical professional to “diagnose” that a mattress was likely too soft after the fact to be right in a majority of cases but there would also be a smaller percentage of people that would experience the same symptoms with a mattress that was too firm or for other reasons as well. There is more about the most likely reasons for some of the symptoms that people can experience on a mattress in post #2 here and as you can see there can be multiple reasons for the same set of symptoms. If these same professionals were truly knowledgeable about mattresses and the ergonomics of mattress design and construction they would also be the first to also recognize that they wouldn’t be able to predict which mattress would be the best match for any particular person before the fact with any certainty with a high degree of success over time and the odds are high that they would be making worse recommendations and having a lower percentage of success for most of their patients than any experienced manufacturer. The fact is that most of Tim’s recommendations are remarkably accurate and he has an amazing track record of success but nobody is right 100% of the time. Of course if there are medical issues involved then choosing the best mattress can be even more complex and uncertain because a mattress that may work perfectly for one person with bulging discs may be completely unsuitable for someone else with the same medical condition. While a mattress doesn’t cause these types of medical issues … a mattress that isn’t a good match for someone can certainly aggravate the pain and discomfort that comes from them.

We ended up needing a well-founded solution quickly for my dad so I took it upon myself to build my folks a bed using the data I’d accumulated through actual scientific research. We tried having Tim implement the solution but he wanted us to essentially pay for a new mattress even though his bed brought on these problems for both of my parents. What worked for them was 3" extra firm Dunlop, 3" firm Talalay from the My Green Mattress mattress, and 2" of medium Talalay inside a zippered case. Atop that is a 1" piece of medium pure/organic Talalay in an organic cotton cover. It feels softer than the latex inside since it’s used as a topper. This has provided support and tremendous pain relief for both of my parents.

It’s great to hear that your solution worked well for your parents although your comment that their problems were “brought on” by their mattress aren’t completely accurate and your suggestion that Tim is somehow responsible for the mattress they chose and should “fix it” for free also isn’t realistic or fair IMO. Free return and exchange policies or the cost of making changes for free are built in to the cost of a mattress and people who don’t need to make any changes are the ones who pay for the ones who do. Manufacturers that have lower margins or who don’t build in the costs of these types of changes into the cost of a mattress for the benefit of reducing the price for the majority of their customers that don’t need to make any changes to their mattress will normally charge a reasonable price to make the types of changes that you were considering. This isn’t unusual at all.

I have to tell you when we disassembled the My Green Mattress configuration for my parents we found they were sent a Power Stack Foundation made of metal- which was exactly what mom didn’t want- she’d requested “metal free.” The Power Stack was made of 5" wide squares in a grid- which according to this site and elsewhere isn’t especially sufficient for providing support under a latex-only mattress.

Given their integrity and their service over many years I would consider this to be an “honest” mistake because they would have no reason to provide a foundation that wasn’t the one that their customer requested. While these types of mistakes are certainly unfortunate and frustrating and I understand that they are “one more” reason for you to feel the way you do … these types of “wire grid” foundations are certainly strong enough to provide good support for a latex mattress and they would do a suitable job of supporting a latex mattress over the short or medium term. There also isn’t a consensus of opinion about this between manufacturers and the reason for my caution with these types of foundations is that I have talked with enough manufacturers that have seen the latex impress into the gaps in the wire grid over the longer term that I believed it justified a caution (see post #10 here) even though it may be an “abundance of caution” that many in the industry may not agree with. The power grid foundation also has a tighter wire grid than many other wire grid foundations so it would have less risk than other similar foundations that have a more open grid system. There is no “wrong or right” in this … only degrees of risk based on “best judgement”.

In conclusion we don’t believe My Green Mattress is well-placed to be making recommendations about latex bed support- as related to both latex mattresses and foundation needs. We’ve also unfortunately found them to not be honest regarding what’s in their products. And in experiencing a great deal of difficulty getting a conclusive recommendation, the family also saw alot of up-charging. We didn’t find this to be a fair practice when the initial recommendations that were made were not well substantiated and in fact harmed the health of my parents. To be certain, their original Organic Dreams mattress has now increased in price by 40% the past several years so perhaps the focus is on dollars now instead of science and service.

As you may imagine I would completely disagree with your “conclusions” and I don’t think that they reflect their many years of success in helping thousands of customers make great choices (many of which have provided some heart warming comments on this forum). It is also completely unfair to accuse them of being “dishonest” for making one of their rare mistakes and supplying the wrong foundation. While I can understand that you may be somewhat emotional or have strong feelings about all of this because they are after all your parents, I believe that to some degree this may have caused a loss of perspective because some of your comments are somewhat unfair and certainly contradict many years of experience and are based on expectations that would be impossible for anyone in the industry to live up to. They are also just as focused on quality and service now as they have ever been as the feedback from most of their customers clearly indicates.

While I appreciate your comments and I do believe that you believe they are warranted and fair … I also wanted to add my own for some additional perspective so that others who read them will will realize that some of them are based on unrealistic expectations and are somewhat inaccurate in their premise and that your experiences and how you feel about them certainly wouldn’t be the norm for the large majority of their customers.

There are a few examples of some of the many comments and feedback they have received from other members of the forum here and here just to add some of the “other side of the story” as well.

Phoenix