my organic sleep experience?

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hi, I ran across a company called my organic sleep and haven’t seen much if anything posted about them here or anywhere else. They seem to be selling 100% natural dunlop (still waiting for a response from them) but not much in the way of selection. Their specs seem a bit off since they’re saying medium 26-28ild is 5.5lb density and their extra firm 38-40 is 6.5lb density. Even for dunlop that seems pretty dense for those ratings. FSF has a chart listing Latex Green’s densities as being much less.

Does anyone know what the old single core dunlop mattresses were from back in the 50-60’s? Back then I think people used a lot firmer beds, so likely they might’ve been firmer than I can imagine. I was tossing around the idea of a medium 6" slab as the core and though 26-28 sounds a bit too soft the extra firm is way too firm for my taste.

Of the mattresses I tested, the two that felt the best were the PLB nutrition and the savvy serenity 9" dunlop (soft/med/firm). Both of these to me felt a lot firmer than what I’m used to. The PLB pamper felt way too firm to me, I can only assume I was going through the 2" soft top and feeling too much of the 40ild core. The Nutrition uses a slightly softer core and 5" in the top vs 2" but the 28ild directly on top felt pretty firm in terms of surface feel. The difficulty with the serenity is not knowing much about the layers other than general soft/med/firm. They didn’t have a soft/med/med to try, the other side of the bed was firmer yet at med/med/firm. So far I’ve gathered latex is just an all around firmer bed.

Typically 5" (like in the Nutrition) would end up providing a lot of the support wouldn’t it? Obviously the core plays a role, but most of any “sinking in” (if you could call it that, I doubt I sunk more than an inch laying down on it) would happen along the upper layers and 27ild/19ild 5" thick that didn’t occur (I didn’t dip through those 5" and ‘hit’ the core like I did with the Pamper). Taking this into consideration, would a medium dunlop still be risky as a core? With 3" 28 talalay over top of it? What I see in typical constructions are mid to high 30’s ild talalay or low to mid 30’s dunlop (because it’s more supportive/denser it would stand to reason they balance out) - but both of these beds felt quite firm to me, taking away any sensation of springiness differences between talalay or dunlop, they were solid. Barely budged even a few inches if that even sitting on the edge (vs sleeping). The Nutrition felt slightly softer, which I can attribute to the talalay, thicker layers etc - but even with a soft middle layer (2" of 19 ild), it was also on display with the latex enhanced foundation which adds another 4" of softer latex beneath it. Had it been the 36 ild base directly on a slatted foundation with no give, I’m sure it would have firmed it up even further. For my personal taste, either could have been a touch softer but at the same time I don’t want to risk alignment issues.

Considering a DIY approach, I’m thinking either dunlop or talalay will need something to take the edge off the surface of the latex for my preference, even if it’s thin. I don’t want to lose the support of the latex, so thinking maybe 1" of memory foam and 1" soft continuous pour dunlop or something. I guess what I’m striving for is the support of latex (that part I like, the solid feel) minus the hardness. After reading tons of other people’s posts and what they’re happy with I have to assume I’m the odd man out since the Nutrition and Serenity felt just the softer side of a wooden plank to me. Both of them (barely) had enough give to fill in the gaps of my lower back lying on my back - and I tend to lay/sleep on my side about 50-60% of the time which wasn’t overly comfy on either of those. Too much pressure on my hips and shoulder. The firm innerspring hotel bed I slept on out of town recently didn’t thrill me either and I couldn’t fall asleep on it until I was dead tired. Is it possible to go ‘softer’ and still be supported straight for alignment? I know that a topper can be used, but at some point it gets out of control - such as the Nutrition, 11" of latex in the mattress, 4" in the foundation, add a topper and now there’s 17-18" of latex - and would end up putting me 7-8" above the core support which almost negates its’ purpose being so deeply buried.

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Hi Brass,

You can see some comments about My Organic Sleep (Myorganicsleep) and some of the other names they use in post #8 here.

I don’t know but perhaps someone else that does will see this and be able to answer you. If I remember I’ll ask a few people who may know when I talk with them next to see if they have an idea.

You can see the approximate Savvy Rest ILD range in post #2 here. they have since changed Talalay latex suppliers but their ILD range should be approximately the same. Talalay and Dunlop (especially continuous pour Dunlop) can be as low as the low teens in terms of ILD which is a very soft material.

It would be highly unlikely that you are only sinking in an inch. The word “support” can be a little misleading because the goal of a mattress is to keep each person in good alignment in all their sleeping positions which means that some parts of the body need less support so they are “allowed” to sink in more (like the shoulders) and other parts of the body need more support so they can be “stopped” from sinking in too deeply (usually the hips/pelvis) and the more protruding parts of the body also need to sink in enough so that the recessed gaps in the body can be filled in and supported as well. Mattresses that are too firm and mattresses that are too soft can both provide poor support for some parts of the body which can lead to spinal misalignment. There is more in post #6 here that can be helpful to visualize good spinal alignment which is the result of the “right amount” of softer or firmer support under each area of the body. Al the layers will interact together and they will all compress to different degrees and affect all the other layers to different degrees but deeper firmer layers will compress less than softer upper layers.

If a Talalay core works well for you in a specific design then the main difference in using a Dunlop core of the same thickness and same firmness in the same design would be in the “feel” of the mattress.

There are too many variables, unknowns and complexities with the rest of your comments and questions to use “theory at a distance” and you will need your personal experience or trial and error to see how they work for you in your “real life” experience.

Phoenix

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Phoenix, thanks. I don’t think I use the search feature the best here, sometimes when I type in terms I get too many results (like pure latex bliss, I’ll get tons of results because of ‘latex’). Not the fault of the search feature, I’m sure it’s operator error lol. Ended up missing that post you made and didn’t realize all those websites were the same place.

I’ve seen the Savvy ild approximations and they’re probably the most obscure of any of the vendors (and smart for them from a marketing aspect). There’s other reasons they don’t come right out and say, but it can’t hurt to build a little mystery either - similar to what is it that gives xyz cookie that famous taste and makes everyone determined to know.

While laying on the Nutrition (easier to describe since the cover was thinner, not confusing quilting with the latex), you’re right I probably sank in a bit more than just an inch (but not by much). I didn’t feel out of alignment. Everything felt pretty straight, but due to the firmness of the top layer (the 27ild) it was more a pressure issue. When lying on my back, I didn’t feel any major gaps where the lower part of my spine arches up in the lumbar region - so I wasn’t laying on my shoulder blades and rear end with my back arched ‘above’ the surface of the mattress creating a bridge effect. There wasn’t much difference from the surface of the mattress and my body though, riding very much on top of the mattress. The pressure I felt reminded me of a slightly overfilled waterbed, tight. Not much give at all. Which would work well if I was primarily a back sleeper, but due to the firmness/lack of ‘give’ it made me feel limited to my back. When I rolled onto my side there was enough pressure to know I didn’t want to spend any time that way and was just comfortable enough as a transition motion to either end up on my back or stomach. Where I noticed the most pressure on my side was the hip and shoulder, like too much of my weight was being supported at those points. Made me think if my body had been able to sink in just a bit more, the support would’ve been more even along my ribs and mid section.

I get what you’re saying if a particular core like the talalay worked well, stick with it. What I’m more fuzzy about is this. Take away the 4" latex enhancement in the foundation. The core was a 36 ild talalay. Had it been a more simple construction, 2-3" pressure relieving latex over the 6" of 36 ild, and my body was nice and straight I could be certain the 36 was a good match. Beneath 5" of latex, further away from the core, I have no way of knowing if a 30-32 ild would have worked just as well (they didn’t have any models like that in the showroom).

The only other foam style bed (non innerspring) I can really compare to is the 12" Spa Sensations memory foam (rated a plush) and it’s too soft for me (doesn’t hold me up enough in the middle). Looking at its’ construction, it’s 3" 3lb memory foam over 3" 20 ifd poly over 6" 24 ifd poly. The upper 6" is quite soft being low density thicker memory foam and 3" of softer poly. Plus it’s sitting on a flexible slatted foundation which allows for even more give in the heaviest areas as well. Understandably latex is more point elastic, but it’s also got more support in terms of higher compression modulus. So 3" 20 ild latex should stop sinking faster than the poly foam shouldn’t it? What I’m thinking is 30-32 ild latex is much closer to 36 ild - and is 6-10 ild (almost an entire firmness range firmer) than the firmest support of that particular memory foam mattress and firms up faster due to higher compression modulus. So it should adapt to more weight even better than the poly foam.

Ken over at APM mentions that dunlop because of it’s higher compression modulus compares to slightly firmer talalay - “Available in Firm #36 ILD but when compared to Talalay latex feels more like #40 ILD. Medium #30 but feels like #34 Talalay, and Soft #24 and feels like #28 Talalay.” This was his remark about their dunlop base cores and I’m not trying to take it out of context but it sounds like in terms of feel dunlop feels around 4 ild higher than the talalay counterpart. If this accurate (as it can be making a rough comparison), then if I’m considering a 30-32 talalay over 36 ild - would a 26-28 ild dunlop be a close approximation?

I had considered a mid 30’s ild dunlop, but if it feels closer to a 40ild talalay that’s pushing it if I already felt the 36 talalay was plenty firm and then some. As a rough guess, moving from one core to a slightly softer core - should the comfort layer on top be thinner to borrow more from the top of the base core (using its softness in the transition)?

My goal is to keep the mattress around 10" or so give or take. The Nutrition was plenty firm ( I wouldn’t want to go firmer). From my understanding, the 5" latex above the 36ild core ‘cut’ it’s firmness - just 3" 27 ild without the 2"of 19 would have let more core firmness through. Or just the 2" of 19 without the 3" of 27, also too firm (like the pamper, feeling too much core coming through). If the core itself was a bit softer, it may very well only need 2-3" rather than 5" to buffer the laying surface from the firmness of the core. I wish the Nutrition hadn’t been ‘set’ in its’ layering with glued layers, would have liked to try it with the upper layers reversed laying directly on the 19 ild over the 27. Overall, most constructions of latex with a soft/med/firm approach feels really firm to me. I don’t want to lay on it like a hammock (bent alignment) but would prefer to sink in a bit more than what’s on the showroom floor while remaining aligned. I’m not sure if it’s ‘average’ preferences, more the ‘european feel’ or if it’s designed to be more durable but the all latex felt firm (at the upper end of tolerable for me) and the hybrids like the harmony felt like a rock (futon). I already know there will be some adjustment coming from a pillowtop, so I’m prepared for that. I just don’t want to invest close to $1000 and end up feeling like i’m laying on a $30 piece of plywood. Obviously it’s nothing against folks who like firm(er) beds it’s my own preference.

Are there any other ideas for compromise on the firmness compared to the Nutrition? Like I said, the only place I could test didn’t have a whole ton of options to sort through or I would have spent more time. Maybe 3" 28 over 3" 36 talalay as a core? That’s basically the layout of the Serenity in dunlop, the middle and bottom layers were med/firm and talalay being a bit softer than the dunlop (not a bad thing). Sitting on the edge (more localized force concentrated in one spot vs spread out on the bed like lying/sleeping) felt like there was just a little give in the top and more of a dense ‘thud’ firmly holding me up.

I’d even considered one of the all talalay 9" mattresses from mattresses247, spoke with Valerie and she was super nice. I haven’t ruled it out entirely, she mentioned that the common starting point is soft/med/firm but had suggested I go with a med/med/firm. My concern is that puts me right back on top of 28ild talalay which I felt wasn’t soft enough on the Nutrition to lay directly on. I could always add some sort of soft topper, but would rather have it all in the same cover rather than multiple pieces if at all possible. Also, even though it’s semi adjustable the med/firm are bonded together so if I wanted to try med/soft/firm I couldn’t - although that sounds a lot like the Nutrition and it was too firm that way anyway.

4

Hi brass,

When you are building your own design from individual components then the most reliable way to predict the final outcome is to use a reference point of a mattress that you have actually tried and then build the exact same design with the same type of latex, layer thicknesses, ILD’s, and a very similar cover. Once you begin to make changes to your reference design then the results become much more uncertain and the changes will be felt in different ways by different people because of the many differences between body types, sleeping positions, and perhaps most of all by the different levels of sensitivity between different people. I have seen some people compare two very different mattresses and don’t seem to notice any difference at all and others who compare two mattresses that notice major differences in their sleeping experience from from seemingly very small changes that would be insignificant to most people. It all depends on where you are in the “I can sleep on anything” and the “princess and the pea” range of sensitivity. Even the most experienced mattress designers with years of experience can be very surprised at the outcome of a new design compared to how it was “supposed” to feel and perform in theory compared to how it actually does in real life.

If you have two mattresses that only have one relatively small difference between them (such as one layer being an inch thicker or thinner, a single layer change in materials, a smaller increment change in one layer, or two different covers) then it’s easier to predict the most likely outcome of the single change but the effect of even a single smaller change in design can still be surprising for some people because of all the variables involved and once you have larger changes or multiple changes between a particular design and a known reference point then the only way to really know how they will affect any particular person is through trial and error and your own sleeping experience.

If you are working on theory alone without using a specific reference point then it’s usually best to take a “bottom up” approach where you start with the deeper layer or layers and then “leave room” to build additional softness on top of it based on your actual experience on the deeper layers. This can reduce the chances of buying layers that you don’t need or that don’t work well in your final design.

The Nutrition has a dominating layer design with a firmer layer of latex over a softer layer which gives you a firmer sleeping surface that some people like (probably not as much with most side sleepers) with some additional softness underneath the top layer. It has a different “feel” from a more traditional progressive type of layering.

Assuming you tested the mattress without the 4" latex foundation … then the safest approach would be to use the exact same layers in the same design with a similar cover. There will be some differences between glued and unglued layers but these probably wouldn’t be that significant for most people (although the unglued layers in the top layers would make a bigger difference). If you change the core to a softer ILD then it would certainly make a difference and the mattress would be softer but you won’t be able to predict how much softer or the specific effect on your body of a softer support core until you actually try it. While thicker layers of latex on top of the core would modify the effect of the softer core layer … it would still be different and in some cases you may notice it more when you wake up in the morning either with or without discomfort or pain in your lower back than you would “feel” it when you were going to sleep at night. Again all of this will depend on how sensitive your body is to changes in a mattress.

The Spa Sensations is a completely different design using completely different materials and even if you did know the firmness of all the layers (which they don’t provide so its a moot point) … firmness ratings don’t translate between different materials anyway so you would still be in the dark about how this would compare to a mattress that uses completely different materials. There are just too many differences and unknowns between the Spa Sensations and what you are building to be able to use it as a reference point. You can see more about comparing ILD/IFD numbers between different materials (if you even have them in the first place) in post #6 here. ILD’s with memory foam are mostly meaningless when they are compared to other materials because ILD testing produces different results with slow response materials compared to fast response materials and they also change with response time, temperature sensitivity, and humidity and with how long they are compressed. Different memory foams of the same density can also have different ILD’s and softness levels.

You can read a little more about the differences between Dunlop and Talalay ILD’s in post #6 here. They also have a different compression curve (see post #49 here). In some cases Dunlop can feel softer (at compressions less than 25%) and in some cases it can feel firmer (at compressions more than 25%) so for the most part in layers that are generally compressed more than 25% Dunlop will feel firmer for most people. I also think that Talalay that is one increment firmer (about 4 ILD or so) would be closer to Dunlop in most applications but how this will play out in real life also depends on the specifics of the design and how much each layer is compressed. You can see some of the complexities involved and why the “feel” and performance of a mattress can be so difficult to predict based on “rough math” or “theory” in posts such as post #26 here and inpost #2 here.

Again … all of this is so complex and will vary so much between different people, body types, sleeping positions that it’s almost impossible to accurately predict how you will feel when you are comparing two different designs that have more than relatively small differences between them and this is just an unavoidable part of the trial and error, risk, learning curve, and hopefully rewards of the DIY process.

Phoenix

5

Thanks Phoenix. Any testing I could do was in the store, so I have no idea how any of those mattresses would have played out over night or for several nights. The Nutrition and Pamper were both on latex foundations (split firmness to show off their capabilities). The only PLB that was on just a slatted wood foundation was the Harmony (3" latex over 7-8" poly if I recall correctly) and it felt like a brick to me. The salesman didn’t like it either and had it shoved off in a corner. Not a fair comparison since it was totally different construction. The Serenity 9" dunlop was a bit more solid feeling, but rightly so since it was dunlop and also on a plain slatted foundation. The only real difference (other than initially sitting on the edge) I noticed was more in the comfort areas. The Pamper, Nutrition and Serenity all kept me flat as a board (no sagging or sinking down in the middle). My issue was more with surface feel, being uncomfortable on my side with about 60% of the excess pressure in my shoulder region and 40% in my hips. Similar to laying on the floor on your side for awhile and reaching for a pillow or blanket to put a little padding between you and the floor.

I notice the PLB website lists the Nutrition at an 8 and the Pamper at a 4 for firmness levels although I can’t find a chart to give a spectrum. Assuming 10 is plush/softest and 1 is the firmest, although if the Pamper was a 4, I might give the Nutrition a 5 - just my perception of it. I might have to consider all talalay only because the only dunlop model I could try has really vague descriptions of firmness and trying to duplicate is a crap shoot.

Valerie at mattresses247 seemed concerned with my height/weight on anything under a 28ild and that’s similar to the response I got from Brooklyn Bedding as well. Although like you’ve already said in previous posts, durability becomes a non issue if it’s not comfortable. Unless what I’m feeling is initial firmness on layers that hadn’t broken in yet and will soften to some degree, I’m almost certain I’ll either need something closer to a 22-24 ild and/or a thin topper with some ‘cush’ (i know, blasphemy putting a barrier over the latex lol). I don’t really think it’s the talalay ‘pushback’ as much as just too firm on top because the Serenity was similarly firm. The only bit that helped was the thicker cover. Also keeping in mind the type of cover I would end up with won’t be as thin or stretchy as the PLB uses so it’ll add a touch of firmness to something I already find pretty firm (28 talalay).

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Hi brass,

There isn’t any standardized firmness ratings that you can use to compare mattresses made by different manufacturers so the firmness ratings that are supplied by each manufacturer are really only useful to compare the general firmness of the mattresses made by the same manufacturer. They don’t have anything firmer than the Pamper although a “1” may be something like sleeping directly on a 40 ILD core with no comfort layers. One manufacturer’s “firm” may be another manufacturer’s “medium”. Their ratings are their best estimates of how most people would experience each mattress relative to the others but as you have experienced (by rating the Nutrition as 5 when their rating is an 8 ) … each person can also have very different ideas about what they feel as soft or firm and a mattress that feels “firm” for one person can feel soft to someone else that has a different body type, sleeping experiences, or just different perceptions.

I would certainly take their suggestions into consideration but at the end of the day you are the one who will be sleeping on the mattress and with a component mattress where you can replace layers then durability may not be as big an issue. I would also keep in mind that thicker/softer comfort layers (relative to your weight) can also lead to alignment issues (sore lower back when you wake up for example) that may not be as easy to detect when you are just testing a mattress for “comfort” or “pressure relief” but alignment can be an even more important part of healthy, restful, and “pain and discomfort free” sleep than pressure relief or the more subjective “comfort” or “feel” of a mattress.

Phoenix