Hi Phoenix!
I’ve been reading your site for awhile now, and I really appreciate the abdunance of information here and your attempts to remain unbiased in people’s purchasing decisions.
In hindsight, this post ended up being extremely long, so if please feel free to skip down to the “a new hope” or “what I’m basically asking is” sections since the back story might not all be necessary.
Backstory:
5ish months ago I purchased a Spindle mattress (continuous pour Dunlop latex from mountain foam) in a medium configuration for myself and my girlfriend. We are both 22 years of age, primarily side sleepers, right on the cusp between healthy and overweight BMI (25-26) and 5’6" 162lbs and 5’4" 150lbs respectively. I have a wide-shouldered frame and she has a wide-shouldered and wide-hipped frame, so point elasticity is a must for us. I have long had some difficulty with mattresses, in an odd way. Hotel beds usually seem great/fine and pose no problems, but “normal” inner springs, sleep numbers, and a lot of the more common mattresses tend to cause pain, and as I have gotten older the pain has increased more and more.
So, when I got to purchase my own mattress for a change, I was extactic. I knew exactly what I wanted, a soft memory foam. I purchased a Tempflow Eros from Relief Mart. It felt pretty darn good ever since I got it, but maybe could’ve been a little more supportive. Nevertheless, I no longer woke up in any pain, and so I was very pleased and was happy with my choice. Unfortunately, something changed. I started to put on some weight during the sedentary lifestyle of college (around 20-25lbs), and simultaneous the mattress started to feel differently. Come to find out, I had apparently failed to provide the mattress proper support, and the combined weight of myself and my girlfriend on the improper foundation was causing the mattress to sag. I didn’t realize this since I was in school, and just thought it odd we were having to turn the mattress monthly. But, then monthly became weekly, and then every couple days, and I realized something was up. I started looking for a new mattress ASAP, and initiated a warranty return with Relief Mart. Unexpectedly from my new mattress research and my warranty return I realized the foundation and even bed frame were inadequate for the Tempflow mattress. Relief Mart sent me a topper, and eventually offered me a 50% discount on a new mattress, but I was rather frustrated by the lack of guidance I received in terms of foundations and decided to go with a Spindle instead, for a comparable price. I just want to say, Spindle has been immensely helpful and patient with me, and was very clear about proper foundational support for the mattress and proper care in all respects.
The Spindle was a large improvement over the Tempflow with broken down comfort layers, but it quickly became apparently that it definitely wasn’t quite right. I spoke with Kim at Spindle, and informed him I thought the mattress might be too firm. After some questions, Kim believed the mattress might actually be too soft, but I got him to eventually agree with me. Then I second guessed myself because I moved my layers around and found some improvement with Medium/firm/medium. I therefore told Kim I would play around with the layers and to hold off. It turned out the best configuration I found was the Medium/firm/medium, but it wasn’t quite right. Since going former helped before, but it wasn’t quite right, Kim agreed to send me an additional firm layer and try the f/f/m + medium topper configuration, or a f/f/m configuration. Unfortunately, this did not solve the problem, and if anything made it worse. At our wits end, Kim eventually suggested that perhaps latex just isn’t right for us.
I did some more research, and realized that I believe my problem with the spindle lies in the nature of Dunlop latex itself. Quite frankly, I don’t think the larger compression modulus of Dunlop provides sufficient opportunity for our shoulders and hips to sink in. Measuring my shoulders, I have about 3" from the widest part of my chest under my arm pit to the outside of my shoulder, so I think I need about 3" of a consistent compression comfort layer. I believe the medium Dunlop is not permitting my shoulders to sink in sufficiently and is therefore causing me to twist my spine and place the pressure of basically my entire body weight on my ribs (note, this is basically the nature of my experience on Dunlop, sleep number, and most inner spring beds alike. I believe this is a “learned” position my body has used to compensate for the fact it’s just not possible for my shoulders to be even remotely straight in any of these types of beds).
I asked Kim about putting a 3" memory foam layer on top of the Spindle, and he and Neil agreed that they think this sort of configuration could produce good results for me. In response to this line of thought, I purchased a 3" layer of 3lb density novaform memory foam from Costco to test out the theory. I placed the 3" memory foam on top of two firm layers of Spindle latex (approx 90lb/ft^3 density?). This produced incredibly favorable results for my shoulders and ribs at first, but over a few days I developed lower back pain and the rib pain returned, though my shoulders were actually able to finally get the softness they needed. I believe we were simply sinking straight through the 3lb foam since I definitely have a fairly dense body mass (25ish and 26ish BMI as I mentioned) and feeling the firm layers underneath. I switched out one of the firms for a medium, but again got lower back pain as my lower back began to feel unsupported.
Additionally, the memory foam was extremely hot for us after sleeping on latex for 5 months. Plus, we really enjoyed the fact that the latex, because unlike our previous 5lb memory foam, it didn’t make us feel exhausted just from turning over and getting in and out of bed as the 5lb density foam in the Tempflow Eros used to. These memory foam gripes aren’t really deal breakers by any means, but together our results got us thinking.
A new hope:
As a result of thinking about our various gripes with memory foam – in addition to its positives – we realized we really did like the “feel” and benefits of latex, even if we hadn’t had quite what we were looking for with the all Dunlop Spindle. We decided try some other types of latex, so we drove two hours (each way) to our nearest Savvy Rest dealer. Our theory was from our testing of the more firm Spindle and the positive feeling of the softer memory foam, that more firmness had proven that it was not the answer. Based on what I’d been reading about the differences between talalay latex and Dunlop, I was really excited to try some softer talalays and see how I felt about them. My girlfriend didn’t know what she would like, but definitely wanted to try out something different since our bed was hurting her as well – in similar ways to how it was hurting me (though it probably helped that I sweetened the deal with a visit to the nearby natural history museum after we’d visited Savvy Rest.).
At Savvy Rest, our salesperson started us off on their Medium/Soft/Firm Dunlop and Soft/Medium/Firm Dunlop mattresses. These configurations were okay, and the Soft/Medium/Firm was definitely good, but I was still excited to try the Talalay.
So, we moved over to the Soft Talalay/Medium Dunlop/Firm Dunlop. For me, I quickly noticed this configuration caused my lower back muscles to noticeably strain to keep my spine aligned. My girlfriend also did not feel the soft Talalay on top was supportive enough. Instead, she tried soft Talalay as a 3" topper on top of Savvy’s 7" mattress, and was clearly hooked. She did say she experienced some sort of discomfort in her ribs that she couldn’t quite place, but said it was the best in the store for her and she’d have to sleep on it to know if the rib issue would go away (she postulated that perhaps it is residual tenderness from the Spindle’s firmness).
For her, soft/medium/firm all Dunlop was a second, but she felt after laying on it for awhile that it may prove to be too firm. When I explained to her about Dunlop’s rapid compression firmness, she felt this supported her idea that the soft Dunlop top layer may prove to be too firm because she was sinking in to it a lot.
On my side of things, I was undeterred by the failure of the Soft Talalay on top, and I forged ahead. I tried the Medium Talalay/Medium Dunlop/Firm Dunlop and it felt very, very good. Over time, I began to notice that the “pushback” of the Talalay seemed to be pushing my hips and shoulders up a little too much, but it still felt blissfully, finally, soft enough for my ribs. I asked my girlfriend to try it, and she almost immediately felt that it pushed her hips out of alignment. Conversely, when I tried her topper on top configuration, it felt okay but kinda felt like I was going right through the “soft” Talalay (I believe Savvy Rest uses N2 Talalay global as “soft”) and didn’t quite feel “right” somehow. That said, she was hogging it, so a longer stay by me on it may have produced a more positive result.
I asked our Savvy Rest salesperson (who I just want to say was very professional, helpful, and not pushy in the least) about their ILDs and told him that the soft talalay seemed a bit soft for us, and the medium talalay a bit firm. I asked him if they had anything in the middle between the two. He stated the soft Dunlop would be the closest thing they had, but confirmed that Savvy Rest tends towards mediums as “medium firm” and that there was a sizeable disparity between their “soft” and "medium layers.
As a result, I suspected I could find something online that might be in the middle between their two talalays. After some snooping here and elsewhere, I found two sources that state Savvy’s soft to be N2 by Talalay Global, and their medium to be N4 by Talalay Global. So, I have a strong suspicion that, at least for me, a talalay global N3 at around 25-27 ILD comfort layer with medium and firm Dunlop underneath would be a “perfect” combination, at least based on short duration testing. I am hoping this will work for my girlfriend as well, since the topper was really good, but wasn’t exactly perfect for her. We also tend to sleep in a single “blob” in the middle of the mattress together, both on our sides, so she wonders if even though the soft topper worked well for her in the store, it might not be supportive enough throughout the night, and we’d feel more of the Medium Dunlop than we’d like. Quite simply, she really liked the talalay but stated she really didn’t care for how it performed inside the mattress in either case – (medium or soft).
So, based on testing and projections, the N3 might be perfect for us. But I have reservations since we’re not that high in the BMI range, and since we’re curvy side sleepers theoretically we should need a soft comfort layer, and the N3 is supposedly more “medium.” It makes me wonder if the Savvy soft was actually an N1, or just some sort of very soft N2, or if it is an N2 and I’m just denser than others. From what I have read on here about the experiences of others of lesser and also greater height/weight ratio (larger or smaller BMI than us). So, theoretically, an N2 sounds like a great blend of softness and support for most people, and so it makes me wonder if some part of my information might have been incorrect. Maybe Savvy is using N1 or something, or the N2s we tested had been used so much they’d broken down, or were just generally old and broken down? I just haven’t seen the N3 very often as a comfort layer choice for “normal” or nearly normal BMI/height + weight individuals. And “statistically” the curvy nature and sleeping position would push us toward more softness. I’m trying to decide which layer to purchase, and logically the N3 seems a strong contender and a choice worth testing, but the N2 seems “safer” because even if we don’t like it we can just stick it in the topper configuration my girlfriend liked and I was okay with. Further, the topper confirmation would, I believe, increase the “point elasticity” of the mattress, which is something we both definitely benefit from. So, the N3 could be great, but it’s a risk. What I’m basically asking for your advice on (finally!) is:
Have you seen N3 Talalay work as a comfort layer work, especially over medium and firm Dunlop? Based on what I’ve said, do you think, completely speculatively, the N3 has a good chance of success for us? I understand you can’t feel what I feel, but I’m trying to ask if there’s some reason why N3 doesn’t seem to be a common choice for a comfort layer? I am concerned that the N3 is a more speciality piece that is often “best” suited used as a comfort layer for heavier or much heavier people since they would compress the layer more?
My fear is, obviously, we get the N3 and simply find that we need the extra point elasticity from having the comfort layer as a topper rather than inside our 10" mattress. Since we’re not that high in the BMI range, and others seem to do well on the N2, I worry that I am putting too much faith in my experience at Savvy Rest. Nevertheless, my experience at Savvy Rest was definitely a positive experience for me and really pushed me towards some type of latex, because I really enjoyed the feel of laying on their Medium Talalay, even if it was a bit firm. It was one of the best feelings I’ve experienced on a bed, but of course this was 5-10 minutes of laying and not sleeping. I also worry that since I erred on the side of firmness last time, I’m more inclined to err on the side of softness this time. Of course, we may simply have to try the N3 a couple different ways and exchange it if it doesn’t work for us, or it may work for me but not her or vice versa. With return shipping fees in the $80 range and toppers with return policies costing an extra $~50, it does make exchange still a costly proposition so I’m of course really just after a “best odds” choice here.
As an aside, I was also curious if the N2 and N3s have any tendency to run on the higher or lower end of the 20-24.99 (N2) and 25-29.99 (N3) ranges? As in, is an N2 any more likely to be in the 20-22 (or 25-27 for N3) range rather than the 23-24.99 (28-30 range for N3) range, or vise versa? Is there some universal advice that things tend to run on the lower end or on the higher end? I think I basically want something around a 25 ILD.
Thank you so much in advance for your help, and I apologize for my extremely lengthy post!
