I’ve lurked for a few months as i’ve been looking for the best latex mattress for me, and just now am at it again (got stuck in analysis-paralysis :unsure: it seems like the closer i come to buying the more confused i get. I’m in need of some guidance from Phoenix and/or other awesome people here. Here goes…
summary: i am 5’5 weigh 115 and my husband is 5’10 and 175, queen sz, side & back sleepers… both pretty thin, have muscle tensions in shoulders, and i have wide hips that hurt my back when they sink in a mattress, i’m also loose jointed and get misaligned my dr says i’m an irish gummy bear. we’ve had traditional spring mattresses and memory foam before and i’m at a point where i’m so tired of waking up sore and NEED a good night’s sleep. We tried latex at a local store in minnesota, there’s only the savvyrest in my state. we both like dunlop, and don’t really appreciate the sinking feeling that comes with talalay (reminds me of how miserable memory foam was for me uggghh). Anyways, we have 2-3 questions/decisions we’re stuck on.
considering a foamsweetfoam 10’’ soft, med, firm or soft, med, x-firm (all dunlop). Does the last layer make a difference? How do we decide between firm and xfirm?
it’s a tie between sleeponlatex, spindlemattress, and foamsweetfoam (all online). I don’t really understand what sleeponlatex or spindle’s “soft” or “medium”…sleeponlatex don’t explain and spindle’s have either m, m,m or m, m, f…, but the price point is more competitive than foamsweetfoam, i’m not too sure we’ll rearrange layers so it’s not too important, (i tend to like fewer options…the sleep number drove me crazy lol), and i’ve read on here that most mattresses wear out and give over time so the warranty at fsf isn’t as lucrative when i think of that. Any insight on either company’s products or how to compare them and make a good decision? I’m also confused, spindle’s website says it’s continuous pour dunlop, and that it’s natural. Everything i’ve read on continuous pour says it’s synthetic. I’ve read enough here to know i probably shouldn’t be asking for a recommendation, with that said, i need some help weighing options esp. if i’m missing important differences in the products.
with all my reading, the husband still managed to stump me by asking why we don’t get a hybrid mattress with latex as a top layer and dense foam on the bottom, since it would be less expensive and a dense foam would hold up pretty well (maybe similar to a firm latex?) When i looked at hybrids brooklynbedding seemed to have the most generous amount of latex on top, but it’s blended talalay or synthetic dunlop So, the questions are: -are there hybrids that include natural latex? my research leads me to believe it doesn’t sink as quickly as synthetic. -what are the tradeoffs/downfalls of considering a hybrid? Budget-wise we could go with either a hybrid or full latex from either of those two sites, but are just looking at options and value.
can we buy or build a platform and put it on the frame of our bed, or do we have to swap out the bed for a platform?
any experience with DIY natural bedding in mn? i would need to buy it pre-sewed if that’s possible, i couldnt sew if my life depended on it.
All of the layers of a mattress work together, with changes in the uppermost layers having the most different in surface comfort and changes in the bottom layers have more of an impact upon “deep support”, but being a bit less noticeable in your surface comfort. There is more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful.
The compression of each layer (mainly controlled by thickness, firmness, compression modulus, hysteresis, and position along with a few other specs) are what creates the pressure relieving cradle of a mattress in the top layers which re-distributes weight and pressure on the bony prominences and pressure points of the body while the resistance to further compression of the deeper layers is what “stops” the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far and putting the spine and joints out of their natural alignment. The balance between the opposing needs of pressure relief and spinal alignment is the main factor behind all mattress design and theory and why different mattresses match the body types and sleeping positions and preferences of different people … or don’t.
There is no formula that can predict with any certainty what type of layering you may do best with that can possibly be more accurate than your own personal experience and without this the next best way to decide on the design of a mattress is to use the “averages” of a manufacturer for people of your weight range, body type, sleeping style, and personal preferences. These “averages” may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer depending on the specific designs and options that they have available (including all the components such as the cover or quilting layers which can also have a significant effect on how the mattress feels and performs not just the latex or foam layers).
Your best source for guidance would be a detailed phone conversation with Foam Sweet Foam, as they would have the best knowledge of their componentry and what they think would work best with what they have to offer to give you the best chance at success.
I can certainly help with “how” to choose, but it’s not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
Sleep on Latex offers a 9" or a 7" latex mattress using natural Dunlop, and their mattresses are not configurable, but you can choose to order each mattress as a firm, medium or soft. Spindle has a 10" latex mattress which can be ordered in soft, medium firm or extra firm. They use a natural Dunlop in the continuous pour process. You do have the ability to change a layer if needed. Foam Sweet Foam offers more combinations (3, 4, or 5 layer systems, with the 4 layer being the most popular) where you can choose natural Dunlop or natural Talalay. You have the ability to exchange layers in this system.
Your choice would be based upon what is important to you in your own personal value equation. You mentioned that price is important, and that you don’t need as many comfort choices, so those things certainly would enter into your value equation. You’re comparing “good” vs. “good” products here, so there are no bad choices as far as quality is concerned, and all three of these companies are members of this site, which means that I think very highly of them, their advice and their products.
When you can’t test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help “talk you through” the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and “feel” of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc.) and the options they have available that may be the best “match” for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the “averages” of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about “matching” their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else. I would take the data and recommendations you receive from each member on your list after your phone conversation and objectively compare the pros and cons of each recommendation and move on from there. And of course compare each company’s comfort/exchange policy, just in case things don’t turn out as well as you might have hoped for.
Yes, all products eventually wear out, even premium latex foam, and a warranty is just a guarantee against defects in workmanship, and all of the products you’re considering offer good warranties, so personally I wouldn’t make this primary in my list of things to consider with these particular brands.
It is 100% natural Dunlop latex from Mountain Top Foam produced in the continuous pour process.
Having a mattress using a polyfoam core instead of a latex core is a way to achieve a more affordable product but still maintaining much of the “feel” of latex. A polyfoam core will not be as durable as a latex core. Choosing polyfoam over latex would again be part of your own personal value equation.
I don’t keep a record of the individual mattresses or their specs that the retailers and manufacturers in the hundreds of forum lists throughout the forum carry on their floor or have available online (it would be a bigger job than anyone could keep up with in a constantly changing market) but checking their websites and making some preliminary phone calls to the retailers/manufacturers that are on the local or online lists is always a good idea before you decide on which retailers or manufacturers you wish to deal with anyway. I don’t have a specific listing of manufacturers using a polyfoam core and only 100% natural latex on top, but a good place to start looking online would be the members listed in post #21 here. There are a wide range of latex and memory foam and other options included in the choices there and I believe that all of them compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency.
As for latex durability, I think here that you’re over-analyzing and your analysis-paralysis is showing a bit , and I really don’t want to contribute to this and complicate things by getting into too much detail, but I would consider all types of latex to be a durable material. There’s a bit more technical about latex durability here and here. Your choice between natural, synthetic or blended latex would be one more of a personal preference versus a large quality/durability issue.
You could certainly still use your existing bed frame with your own DIY platform or one like those featured here in the foundation thread. A dedicated platform bed will also work.
any experience with DIY natural bedding in mn? i would need to buy it pre-sewed if that’s possible, i couldnt sew if my life depended on it.
I think highly of DIY Natural Bedding and Deborah and their products.
Thanks for your guidance, Phoenix! I really appreciate it i’ve decided to go with sleeponlatex. their price seems like a great value, and their design reduces the number of options for me, which is helpful at this point. i’m stuck between their soft and medium, their design is interesting with the top 2" always being a soft at 20 ILDs, and the second 6" core being 24 on the soft and 34 on the medium. I gathered from your posts that ILDs aren’t an objective measure that’s easy to compare from one to the next.
So, i’m wondering if anyone has experience with either mattress, and can share how they liked it or didn’t and why. I’m also wondering how the layer configuration they have impacts the feel. How can i compare it to the soft, med, firm i liked by sleepsavvy? I’m leaning towards a medium, because i want a soft feel but am scared of sinking…do you think 2" of soft latex will help with the “give” or comfort enough? I dont know if i’m making any sense, but please let me know if you have any thoughts that can help me land on a firmness.
You’re welcome. I’m happy the information I provided was assistive to you.
ILD is the best way to compare the “overall softness” of latex foams to each other, with the higher number representing a “firmer” feeling foam. ILDs are not exact and better described as being within a “bucket” or “range”. The 20 ILD would be on the border of the ultra plush/plush range, the 24 ILD would be in the more plush range, and the 34 would be more of a firm style of latex (make sure you confirm the ILDs with Sleep on Latex). When comparing ILDs between Dunlop and Talalay, the Dunlop will tend to feel firmer, as the compression modulus will be higher (it firms up faster when compressed past 25%).
One thing you may be referring to is an article I wrote describing that ILD is not the most reliable indicator of how soft or firm a layer will feel. Compression modulus is even more important because very few people actually sink into a layer exactly 25% and compression modulus is the rate at which a foam gets firmer as you compress it more. In addition to this … latex is very “point elastic” which means that a smaller area can compress with less effect on or resistance from the surrounding area.
While usually well intended, reviews or other people’s experiences in general won’t tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or “value” of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here), and I’d caution about putting much stock into them when determining the appropriateness of a mattress for yourself. Other people’s comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be very helpful, but I would always keep in mind that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and I would be cautious about using anyone else’s suggestions, experiences or reviews on a specific mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you. In many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range).
I’m not sure what you mean by Sleep Savvy (Sleep Savvy is a sleep industry magazine). Did you mean Savvy Rest? The best way to determine how a particular online product might feel versus something you tried in person would be from a detailed phone conversation with the online vendor, as they would be the most knowledgeable about how their products might compare to something you tried in person (I’d refer you to my previous post regarding this as well).
While I can certainly help with “how” to choose … It’s not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, or PPP or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).
Just wanted to give an update. I went with the sleeponlatex medium. I was torn between that at soft, and called…they recommended medium as it seems to work best for most, and i hate the sinking feeling of memory foam that a soft might give. It’s been a month now and let me just say, THE MEDIUM IS FIRM! I thought i’d share that in case others are considering it, it doesn’t feel like the medium from Savvy Rest, and crushes my shoulders if i sleep on my side. So, i’ll probably go for a soft or get a topper. The interesting thing that’s still baffling me is he top layer of all of them is 20 ILDs but feels pretty hard to me, the core for a medium is 34 and the core of a soft is 24. They say there’s a huge difference between the soft and medium, but that’s super confusing because the top (20 ILDs) feels pretty hard to me. Any insight on this Phoenix? I know ILDs are complicated, but why could the 20 feel so hard, and is there a big difference in feel between a 24 and 34 core?
It’s all so complicated…here’s to hoping i can get it right next time!
Thanks for the update, and congratulations on your new mattress! :cheer: You certainly chose something using good quality materials.
The good news is that you chose something that does have a good return/exchange policy should you decide to make a change.
Your comments about your opinion of the firmness of the mattress are a perfect example that there are no “standard” definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings, and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions.
The Savvy Rest is a different mattress than the Sleep on Latex, using different latex, in different configurations, and using a different cover, so all of these things will impact the overall feel and it really wouldn’t be reliable to try one and relate that comfort as being necessarily representative of the other.
There is indeed a perceptible difference between a 24 and 34 ILD latex core. All the layers of a mattress actually compress simultaneously, not sequentially, and they will each compress to different percentages of their thickness depending on their position on the mattress, the firmness of each layer, the compression modulus of the material, the thickness of each layer, and the compression force that they are exposed to (which depends on the weight of the part of the body in contact with the mattress and the surface area that is bearing that weight which is constantly changing as you sink into the mattress more or change sleep positions). The compression of each layer (mainly controlled by thickness, firmness, compression modulus, hysteresis, and position along with a few other specs) are what creates the pressure relieving cradle of a mattress in the top layers which re-distributes weight and pressure on the bony prominences and pressure points of the body while the resistance to further compression of the deeper layers is what “stops” the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far and putting the spine and joints out of their natural alignment. The balance between the opposing needs of pressure relief and spinal alignment is the main factor behind all mattress design and theory and why different mattresses match the body types and sleeping positions and preferences of different people, or don’t.
While the greatest influence upon comfort comes from manipulation of the uppermost layers of a mattress, in this case with only 2" of latex until the core is reached the core acts as both a “transition” layer as well as a support core (just to use terminology for the sake of explanation). The lower ILD core will allow a bit more initial compression and one would tend to “bend into” the mattress a bit more before it firmed up, creating a bit of a deeper “comfort cradle” and what most would describe as softer overall feel.
I’ll be interested in learning what you eventually decide to do.
Thanks for all your help Phoenix. I ended up going for the sleeponlatex soft and have had that for over a year now. It’s much better for us than the medium, but more recently we spent months changing pillows because of shoulder and neck pain until i realized the mattress is still too firm for me. My husband has also been complaining of back and shoulder pain in the morning. I bought a memory foam topper to see if we just needed a little padding, and the first night I remembered why i disliked memory foam. It sleeps so hot, and didn’t do much since it caved into the mattress right away. i’m realizing we need much more of a soft surface although we like the support of latex since we don’t like the sinking feeling of memory foam, we both have low bmi’s and tend to get muscle tension from firm mattresses. I’m looking for some guidance on a plush latex topper to try out, one that would soften the mattress considerably but where we’d still have support from the mattress from under it.
I’m hesitant to get a soft topper from sleeponlatex since it would be the same as the upper part of our mattress…and i’m not sure if having more of the soft layer would help enough? I’m thinking we should go for talalay since it tends to feel softer from what i gather. Any advice on quality and not-so-expensive talalaly toppers out there? A reasonable thickness to go for? The mattress right now doesn’t hurt when we first lay down, it feels ok but with time throughout the night it doesn’t have enough give, especially if we sleep on our sides. Am i right in thinking that i should avoid dunlop, or will additional comfort layers feel different than the whole mattress feels now? Which ILDs, can they ever be too low so that the support is totally lost? I know it’s hard to know what will work for any person, i’m just in so much pain again and would appreciate any guidance on what seems like a reasonable next step. I realize we may be trying a couple out before we get it to feel right Thanks!
Hi Phoenix! I can’t figure out where the post option is, so i’m sharing an update and asking for some help here It’s hard for me not to overanalyze and I need help making a decision. I ended up getting a 3" extra soft natural talalay (14-19ild), initially it felt luxurious, but then after several months my partner and I realized it was causing more pain than the stiffness of the mattress did (without it). Too soft feels amazing when i initially lay down, but in the morning it’s a nightmare. Now we’re back to the sleeponlatex soft mattress w/no topper, and the support is there, but there’s some surface soreness/ discomfort (not sure how to describe it), in back/hips, and shoulders) especially with side sleeping and the longer i sleep. It needs a little more “give.” The company i purchased the topper from, mayersbedding offered a discount and recommended a 2" extra soft. I am pretty sure that would still be too soft. I am now torn between trying a 2" soft or a 1" soft (20-24 ild natural talalay). What questions should we be asking ourselves in deciding between 1 or 2"? Does 1" do anything? Is 2" very different from 3"? I know you say it’s good to add “just enough” softness so that the support stays, i just am not sure if 1 or 2" is “just enough” How should i think through this? Thanks in advance!
Hope you don’t mind my stepping in for Phoenix today and thanks for your question .
Thanks for the update pansies11 on your topper situation . Sorry to hear that you are having difficulty resolving your surface soreness/ discomfort in back/ hips and shoulders issues, that has to be frustrating for both you and your partner’s sleep environment.
From what you’re describing now, it sounds like you’ve contacted the manufacturer about an exchange of your current 3" extra soft natural talalay topper and are deciding what that replacement should be. As the manufacturer suggested, moving from an “extra soft” to a “soft” firmness may be the solution; however, there is no way to guarantee without the ability to trial the topper that this would be the answer to your problem. That said, you may consider contacting Mayer’s Bedding again ask if they would consider working with you on an additional topper exchange (it never hurts to ask). From the web site, their topper exchange policy:
Exchanges - If you would like to initiate an exchange, we will split the difference of the cost of the return shipping. We will refund your money less the cost of the return shipping and provide a coupon for 50% of the shipping cost towards the purchase of a new topper. We do not offer a satisfaction guarantee on the second topper. All sales are final on the second purchase.
If this is where you are in the exchange process, knowing the risk is to “get things right” this time and that this is your final option with a topper exchange, a question for you: are there any local manufacturers/ retailers available where you could test the differences in “feel” between 1", 2" and 3" natural talalay toppers of a soft firmness? If at all possible, the ability to make local visits and try how the different thickness/ firmness would feel to both you and your partner, keeping in mind your personal preferences/ PPP, would be helpful towards finding a resolution.
Looking forward to hearing how things go and thanks
I would do either 2" soft or 1" extra soft based on your statements that you are looking for only a very minor change. 1", from experience, makes very little difference in any sleep situation. Also, their soft, according to them, is like a “medium-soft.” If you’ve got the money/resources, you can buy both and donate the one you don’t like to charity or sell it online to someone for very little money to help someone out. It depends how important it is to you to get things exactly right.
Sensei,
Thanks for chiming in. Yes that is the website I dealt with, in hindsight, i think a 3" shouldn’t have been recommended because i am learning it affects the support of the mattress, which I needed. However, the owner has been very responsive and helpful and was nice enough to let me get this topper at the discounted price even though it had been well over 30 days out.
SavvyRest is the only one available in my state for testing. That’s a great idea I hadn’t thought of, although I do wonder if I would’ve been able to try the same configuration since i have a 9" dunlop soft from sleeponlatex, and i don’t know what that would equate to with all the layers they have, before a talalay is added on? The other tricky thing I’ve learned is that it takes my body some time to react. I placed an order for the 2" and I’m crossing my fingers. I’ll update with how it goes!
susu123, I SO appreciate you sharing your personal experience with the 1 vs 2" and the difference in feel. The technical ways of looking at layers and thickness make my head spin sometimes. Your comments make me feel better about my choice, I pulled the trigger on the 2" because i felt that 1 is just really thin and wouldn’t change enough. I’m also glad to hear that their soft is a like a medium-soft, i’m curious where you saw that? That is exactly my plan, if it doesn’t work out i’ll likely pass it along and try again! I think my husband’s confidence in latex is waning, I keep hearing comments that maybe latex just isn’t right and we need spring mattresses again. So if for nothing else, I’d like to prove to him it can work, it’s just an issue of the exact configuration…i love latex.
So, the questions are: -are there hybrids that include natural latex? my research leads me to believe it doesn’t sink as quickly as synthetic. -what are the tradeoffs/downfalls of considering a hybrid? Budget-wise we could go with either a hybrid or full latex from either of those two sites, but are just looking at options and value.
Thanks!