Need help to find chemical-free mattress in Texas

[phoenix]

Hi lmcgehee,

As mentioned in my previous post, I have been having pain in my neck and especially between my shoulders since getting my new mattress and pillow. At first, I attributed this to the pillow, but as of now, I am quite sure that it has to do with the fact that my spine is out of alignment–that is: my hips are lower than my shoulders. My shoulders are higher than my hips and are also getting scrunched against the hardess of the mattress.

The odds of this are quite high and the typical “fix” for an issue like this would be to add some extra thickness and softness to your comfort layers so that your lighter wider shoulders could sink in a little deeper. Of course this would apply to side sleeping and not to other positions. The best odds are always to work underneath the general area that has the problem and the symptoms and the goal is to allow for more even sinking in without one area sinking too far and another not enough.

When I tried the soft 2" talalay latex topper on top of the mattress and slats in their preset settings, I noticed something interesting: it seems to accentuate the feeling that my hips were too low. It did lessen the pressure on my shoulders, but I still felt out of alignment–perhaps even more so. I am beginning to think that the problem might be that my hips are sinking in too much, and as mentioned before, and my shoulders not enough.

Generally the best odds of fine tuning are to work in the area of the symptoms. In most cases the odds are much lower of “fixing” an issue with the shoulders by correcting something under the hips or pelvis. Of course as any doctor who deals with back issues can tell you … the causes behind them can be very complex and there are many cases of “referred pain” where changing something in an area that is different from the area of the symptoms can make significant improvements … but these have lower odds of success … unless you are in the group where the actual cause is in the lower probability adjustments. In these cases … “theory at a distance” is not so helpful (just like a doctor or health professional may give you some general suggestions but then if they don’t work will need to examine you in person) and your own experimentation and intuition where your body tells you that what you are doing is making a positive difference will be the most accurate way to know what will help. I should also mention that the specific “symptoms” you are having are the most important thing to pay attention to and things like “the feeling that my hips are too low” is not an actual symptom and may actually cause more confusion than they may help. Sometimes the things that need to be adjusted are counterintuitive to sombody that doesn’t have lots of experience in mattess layering and design and a change that can actually help may “feel like” it’s going in the wrong direction sometimes even though there are no actual symptoms of pain or discomfort to indicate this.

Another good option you have would be to take a few “naps” on various mattresses at Sovn (first choice) or even some local stores that you think may give you a good indication of what may help (say 1/2 hour or an hour) and listen to the more subtle cues of your body that come from spending a little longer on a mattress than you typically would spend in testing. In many cases a local store may even be willing to help you with their “eyeballs” and feedback either because they want to provide good after sale service (if you purchased the mattress there) or if you didn’t buy the mattress there just to generate some goodwill and a possible future referral even though they know they won’t be making a sale for now.

If you find a mattress that seems to correct the issues you are having … then comparing it to the mattress you have can provide some valuable clues to what may be happening and what can be done to “fix” it.

[quote]1. Try the mattress on the floor without the slats (which I am assuming would be the similar feeling for a non-flexible base foundation like Sleepless in Dallas ended up getting) in the hopes of better alignment and reducing the scrunching of the shoulders
2. Adjust the slats to raise the hips in the hopes of better alignment and reducing the scrunching of the shoulders
3. Try a firmer layer of latex to support my hips more to create better alignment and reduce the scrunching of the shoulders.[/quote]

Option 1 may help if your slats are too soft under your lumbar area. Option 2 may have the best odds because if you could make the slats under the pelvis/lumbar firmer (if they weren’t already) than the other areas of the foundation then you may be able to add some extra thickness and softness under the shoulder area to solve the issues there. This would 'bring up" the lumbar area and “allow” the shoulders to sink in more deeply at the same time. Option 3 would likely be the least effective because you would be making the comfort layer under the shoulder firmer when it may already be too firm and this could create an even worse issue if the shoulders need to sink in more. Of course your own personal experience will say more than any theory.

So I tried the mattress on the floor without the flexible slat base. I woke up feeling much less pain in my neck and shoulders and I attribute this to the better alignment that was created from my hips not sinking down so much. My hips and shoulders were much more even. The only problem was that it was so hard that it created pressure points on both my hips and my shoulders–especially the hips. So I thought I might be making progress here.

It would be important to know the setting of your slats before you put the mattress on the floor and the relative firmness of each area because if they were firmer under your lumbar/pelvis before and then you put the mattress on the floor it would actually allow your pelvis/lumbar to sink in more … relative to your shoulders … not less. It’s always important to know exactly what is changing in each different combination both in terms of the firmer and softer areas of the sleeping system and the specific symptoms that are produced or lessened with each change. What testing on the floor may be “pointing to” will depend on the relative firmness levels of the slats before you put the mattress on the floor.

It’s also important to be very specific about the type and location of any symptoms with each change (giving each change at least a few days to produce a pattern). Your body doesn’t think about the cause of a change in other words … it just feels what it feels. Describing what it feels with each combination (not “feels like”) is the first step. Looking at any changes you have made to see if they can explain any changes in what your body feels (again not what it “feels like”) and why is the second step.

The gentleman at Sovn who is working very cooperatively with me on this problem said that I can also try the slats set so that the hips don’t sink so much and try a pillow that is not so thick. He suggested I do this before trying it on the floor but at the time I had not heard back from him so I tried the floor option first.

As I mentioned this would likely be my first suggestion as well and this would also allow some “room” for adding some softness under the shoulders if it was necessary. I would put a lot of weight in the suggestions they make (much more than anything I could offer on a forum) … especially if they have seen you lying on the mattress but also because they have much more and more specific experience with their own mattresses than I do.

Now my question is this: Since the mattress on the floor is too hard by itself, but is good in terms of evening out my spine, would you think that a firmer latex layer might relieve the pressure points? It sounds kind of crazy to add firmness to something already hard, but I have a hunch it could work. What is your opinion about this in theory?

Using this as a pointer and gaining any information about what it may be telling you would depend on what was different between the settings of the slatted foundation before and and the floor (which would have the same firmness in every area under the mattress). Describing a mattress as “too hard” doesn’t provide enough specific information because it depends on which layer or component is too hard or soft and which specific area is too hard or soft. In other words … identifying which component or layer is too firm or too soft and in which area it is too firm or soft (and the specific symptoms that appear to validate this) is what you are looking for.

The gentleman at Sovn also said that I could change the inner spring base to the softer version which I believe uses coils made from a lesser gauge of wire. He said “The I-Willow A possesses a slightly less supportive base coil which tends to make the mattress feel less firm.” What effect do you think that would have? I am thinking that it would exaccerabate the problem by allowing my hips to sink down even further. Would that in theory be correct?

Before doing any more speculating … I would try to establish a baseline and try to identify the cause of what is happening so far. Until there is more clarity about the “why behind the what” and more information about the settings that you started with and the specific direction of the direction of the changes you made when you put the mattress on the floor, more speculation would probably cause more confusion than it would help.

I should clarify as well … have you been working with Sovn in the store at all so they can give you real time feedback based on what they can see as you try different possibilities or just over the phone?

Some “nap” time with their help and guidance may be the most effective direction of all.

Phoenix

[lmcgehee]

Dear Phoenix,

Thank you for your reply. As it works out, I will be going to the Dallas area today for one of my son’s sporting events and I am going to go to the Sovn store to get help. Since I live about 2 hours away, I had not been able to go there in person. I really appreciate all of your insights and assistance in sorting through this. I am definitely so confused about how to help myself right now and I am losing any sense of perspective–probably due to poor sleep! Your comments are very helpful. I will let you know how it works out.

Sincerely,

Lisa

[phoenix]

Hi lmcgehee,

I know that traveling for 2 hours just to test various options can be a challenge but I think your time there would be well worth it because now that you have a sense of the “feel” that leads to some of your issues you will be able to test some of the combinations there that may help you move things in the right direction. You will also have some good “in person” guidance that can use their experience to help you in person.

In general I would tend to focus on specific symptoms that you are experiencing (things like pain, tension, discomfort in specific areas of the body and the sleeping positions that they tend to happen) rather than ideas about the reasons that may be behind them (which is where confusion can start to creep in because sometimes this can be counter-intuitive). This way you can do the “reporting” and “describing” and then they can do the “speculating” or “theorizing” about what may help correct things.

It can take a bit of trial and error when your situation is more complex or difficult but it will be worth it in the end and the good news is that you have many options available to fine tune your “sleeping system”.

Of course I’m also interested (and there are likely other forum members who will be as well) in hearing about any of the specific changes you make and the results of each and of course I’ll be happy to make comments along the way until you reach as close as is possible to your “ideal”.

Phoenix

[lmcgehee]

Dear Phoenix,

I returned to Sovn last weekend and I was very pleased with the customer service. First, we addressed the pillow issue and I was sent home with another pillow option to try. This pillow is still medium firmness, but a bit lower than the previous one that I had tried. The idea was that the correct pillow would alleviate some of the pain in the neck and between the shoulders that I have been feellng. While I was there, I verified that our mattress is indeed quite a bit firmer than the showroom one. This is apparently attributed to the fact that the cover has stretched over the few years that the showroom mattress has been on display, making it have a softer feel. My alignment was good on the showroom model, but as I said, it is not the same at home.

While I was there I took a nap on the I Willow A (aka Alpine) and was pleasantly surprised that “softer” coils did not mean a saggy mattress. I was told that my alignment was good on the Willow A version as well, using the pillow that was recommended. I have the option to switch to the innersprings that are “softer,” as part of the comfort exchange. How I understand it is that the the taller level of coils in the softer mattress are of a wire gauge that is less thick than those of the firmer Willow/Alpine. This makes the mattress feel softer. The coil count and dimensions of both configurations are the same. The 2" layer of soft latex I have right now also would not change. I have been assured that there is no difference in durability between the firmer and softer versions of the I Willow innerspring.

After spending the past 5 nights sleeping on our I Willow C mattress with the medium pillow,(on the slats back to the preset configuration), I can say that it is definitely better in terms of less neck/shoulder pain, but things are still not perfect. I am still feeling like my shoulders do not "sink "in enough. We are on day 50 of having this mattress (with a 60 day comfort exchange policy) and I am strongly leaning toward trading the firm innerspring for the “softer” innerspring in hopes that the softer springs will “give” more under my shoulder. It was hard to tell if it was that much better in the showroom because I don’t think that I relax the same way as I do when I am in a deep sleep. That being said, the I Willow A softer mattress definitely seemed very comfortable.

My question now is : Would you think having the innersprings with the less thick gauge wire would logically result in having more “give” under the shoulder?
Would you also guess that the softer innerspring is appropriate for someone who is 5’10" 148 lbs & side sleeper and 5"11" 160 lbs for my husband the stomach and side sleeper?
Looking toward the future, as I will be living through the rest of my 50’s and into my 60’s (God willing) with this mattress, would you think that as one ages a “softer” mattress might be a better choice in the long run, or is there no correlation with middle age and mattress firmness?

As always, your response and opinion are greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Lisa

[phoenix]

Hi lmcgehee,

Would you think having the innersprings with the less thick gauge wire would logically result in having more “give” under the shoulder?

Yes … definitely. The good news is also that once the softer part of the innerspring reaches the firmer coils that support is maintained. It’s like having a little extra thickness for the comfort layer which it sounds like you may do well with.

Would you also guess that the softer innerspring is appropriate for someone who is 5’10" 148 lbs & side sleeper and 5"11" 160 lbs for my husband the stomach and side sleeper?

Based on your feedback from the showroom and on your relatively lighter weights (even though i don’t know the specifics of the gauge and even then would really need to see you on the mattress anyway because weight distribution and body shape plays a big role here) … I would say “in theory” yes. The only potential “risk” I see would be for your husbands stomach sleeping but again this would need to be seen to know (and they seem to know what to look for).

Looking toward the future, as I will be living through the rest of my 50’s and into my 60’s (God willing) with this mattress, would you think that as one ages a “softer” mattress might be a better choice in the long run, or is there no correlation with middle age and mattress firmness?

This depends a lot on “how” someone ages and on the 'type" of softness you mean. Softness can refer to the surface or “hand” feel of a mattress, to the comfort layers and their ability to provide good pressure relief, or to the support of a mattress which “stops” the heavier parts of the body from traveling down too far into the mattress.

It would be reasonable to expect that for many people their pressure relief needs (the upper layers of the mattress) would move towards softer to compensate for the lower pressure that it may take to compress the capillaries in the body surface with the loss of muscle tone and other changes in the body. On the other hand if the body shape also changes (weight goes up or down and weight distribution changes) this may also lead to other changes in support needs as well to maintain good neutral alignment with a different body shape and weight distribution pressing down on the deeper layers (the innerspring) of the mattress. If the body weight and shape are maintained to a reasonable degree … support needs probably won’t change as much.

Phoenix

[wheezer]

Need to find chemical free mattress in Maryland
You can’t imagine (actually, with your experience you probably can)what a relief it is to discover I’m not nuts, and that I felt a lot more than nausea with that pillow. But I can see it’s going to take a lot of work to sort this all out. But the information is here.

Our queen bed is probably 25 years old and not feeling comfortable anymore. Once I wake up I get stiff and uncomfortable so I end up having to get up. My husband weighs about 180 and I weigh 230. My husband is a great sleeper, but I often wake up when he gets up during the night. All that is minor compared to the chemical sensitivity part. It didn’t occur to me that I might be sensitive to
something in beds other than memory foam. But more and more chemicals are affecting me so I want to avoid all that I can including that flame retardant. Working with 4 different doctors so no problem with prescription.

We live near Annapolis and about 20 miles from Baltimore. I’m hoping you know of some places we can go to look and test once I get more of solid understanding of the possible combinations.
This is a fantastic service and thank you so much.
Wheezer

[phoenix]

Hi wheezer,

The first goal is of course some education (to offset the general misinformation that you will encounter) and then the next goal is to connect with better retailers or manufacturers in your area. In some areas the choices for mattresses that are “safe” by more critical standards are more limited or not great value and then an online purchase from a manufacturer where you have the ability to make changes after the purchase can make sense as well. Post #21 here has some of the best options I’m aware of if this is the direction you end up choosing.

Some of the better options and possibilities I know of in the Baltimore area are in post #2 here.

And no … you’re not “nuts” … but you do have a difficult challenge that others don’t have to face (just like some people have to avoid bee or wasp stings because they can be life threatening and others just take reasonable precautions and others yet don’t seem to think about it at all).

So at least you have some good sources of information and if you have questions along the way feel free to post them here. With complex and more “difficult” subjects … then one step at a time until the pieces start falling into place is usually the “best” way to go.

Phoenix

PS: I switched this reply from the other thread with the same post (and removed the links which I realized I had already given you).

[phoenix]

Hi wheezer,

I switched my original reply here to your other thread here that had the same post.

Phoenix

[lmcgehee]

Just wanted to give you an update on how things worked out with my quest for mattress comfort: I ended up doing a comfort exchange for the I Willow A (Aka Alpine A)“softer innersprings.” By the time that they were delivered, however, I had begun to feel that the mattress that I already had really did feel softer and more broken in. The literature and website said that this would only take a month or two, but it took a little longer for me. Anyway, after trying the softer innersprings and sleeping on them for a week, I found that the firmer Willow C was definitely the better option for me, so we simply put the Willow C coils back in and packed up the softer coil unit and took it back to Dallas. I am very glad I had to option to know for sure what the best choice is since we are hoping to use this mattress for many years to come. Now I know for sure that I have the best choice for me.

 I wanted to complement Gerardo and April at Sovn for their excellent customer service and grace in helping me in so many ways. First to switch out my oxygen pillow until we got it right. I am no longer having any neck or shoulder pain. Second, to allow me to get the softer innersprings and then graciously taking them back when they did not work out. Incidently, Gerardo had told me more than once that my mattress would feel softer over time. He definitely knew what he was talking about! I just did not have the same confidence that he had.

  Overall, this journey has been a really big learning experience for me. I am very happy with my purchase and grateful that I have a nice non toxic mattress that is a pleasure to get into each night. I would definitely go back to Sovn again, despite the fact that they are more expensive than some of the other Berkeley Ergonomic dealers. The customer service does make all the difference. 

Thanks again for all of your help in answering my questions and sorting through the issues. I really appreciate it.

[phoenix]

Hi lmcgehee,

Thanks for bringing us up to date … and that’s great news

Sometimes the breaking and adjustment period can take a little longer … and this is particularly try with higher quality materials. Fine tuning can also be challenging sometimes because it can involve several separate issues affecting you simultaneously (such as the mattress layers and components and a pillow).

As you mentioned though … all of this really does to go to show the “value” of good service and good guidance.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Phoenix