Need help with Canadian Retailers

Hi Phoenix,

I am interested in sleeping on a bed that feels like the ones at the fancy hotels, primarily a pillow top feel. I also want a bed to last for ten years or so. So I went to one of the retail locations that was mentioned on this site. I was offered a customized king size latex mattress set, a headboard , metal frame, delivery (close to 200 km of travel) and set up for $2000.00. The latex bed is made of talalay , 6 inches of 45 density of latex at core and 2 inches of 30 density on top, covered by quilt comprised of organic cotton fabric that contains !/2 inch of bio foam. Initially he wanted to put polyester in the quilt and I explained I have allergies , so he went to bio foam, I am not sure if that matters or not. My questions to you, knowing that I want a pillow top feel with mattress longevity are these layers and density combinations going to give me that, if not what do you think would be a better fit, keeping in mind that I have no pain anywhere, just want that pillow top sensation and longevity. Also, am I paying too much, as $2000 was a bit over my budget.Please share your thoughts.

Thank you/

Hi Mattress,

There is more about hotel mattresses in post #3 here but there is no standard type of hotel mattress or “hotel mattress feel” or even “pillowtop feel” because it all depends on the specifics of what is inside the mattress. They are also made by many different manufacturers but they are usually higher priced and/or lower quality versions of similar consumer mattresses made by the same manufacturer with a few minor changes so they can claim that they are “proprietary” and charge extra for the name on the label. They are a common source of buyers remorse. There are more people who prefer their own mattress than prefer even high end hotel mattresses (see this survey) and the reason that some people seem to do well with hotel mattresses in general is most likely because almost any mattress that is in relatively good condition may feel better than what they are sleeping on if it’s past the end of its useful lifetime or isn’t suitable for you any longer.

They also don’t provide any specific information about the materials inside them so you can’t match them based on specs (and you wouldn’t want to anyway because the major brands tend to use lower quality materials) so the only way to make any kind of subjective comparisons in terms of “feel” is to test mattresses until you find one that “feels” similar to the way you remember the hotel mattress feeling (and your subjective memory of how something “feels” is not usually reliable). In very general terms (which can vary widely) they are typically a firmer innerspring with a medium or medium soft comfort layer and then a bedding package on top of this (which may include a topper, sheets, mattress pad, featherbed, and pillows) that adds some extra surface softness and the “aura” of luxury. They are certainly nothing special in terms of quality or value.

[quote]I was offered a customized king size latex mattress set, a headboard , metal frame, delivery (close to 200 km of travel) and set up for $2000.00. The latex bed is made of talalay , 6 inches of 45 density of latex at core and 2 inches of 30 density on top, covered by quilt comprised of organic cotton fabric that contains !/2 inch of bio foam. Initially he wanted to put polyester in the quilt and I explained I have allergies , so he went to bio foam, I am not sure if that matters or not.

My questions to you, knowing that I want a pillow top feel with mattress longevity are these layers and density combinations going to give me that, if not what do you think would be a better fit, keeping in mind that I have no pain anywhere, just want that pillow top sensation and longevity. Also, am I paying too much, as $2000 was a bit over my budget.Please share your thoughts.[/quote]

This mattress certainly uses good quality materials and there are no weak links in the construction or materials and depending on your personal value equation and what you are comparing it to seems to be fair value as well. The most important part of the value of a mattress purchase though is how well it matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and there is no way for someone else to know this based on theory or specs (yours or the specs of the mattress) that can be more accurate than your own personal testing or experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). Only you can feel what you feel on a mattress or know how it compares to another mattress based on your own perceptions (and these types of comparisons are very subjective and different people can have very different opinions)

If you have done some careful and objective testing on the mattress using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post and it’s a good match for you then it would certainly be well worth considering as one of your finalists IMO.

If you haven’t tested the mattress in person then your confidence in the suitability of the mattress based on your conversations with the manufacturer or retailer along with the options you have after a purchase to “fine tune” the mattress or return or exchange the mattress (or individual layers in some cases) if it doesn’t turn out the way you and the manufacturer/retailer hoped it would turn out would likely become a much more important part of the “value” of your purchase.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix , I am getting a 9 inch latex bed weighing close to 90 lbs. Can you tell me if the Prepac- Fremont Series Espresso King 6-Drawer Platform Storage Bed is suitable for a latex bed, I am pretty certain they said the slats are 2 inches apart, but I am not sure about the material that comprises the frame.The manufacture is Prepac and I obtained the details from a Home Depot website. But, I spoke to a HD rep and they calculated slats to be less than 3 inches ,closer to 2’:

PRODUCT OVERVIEW

Enjoy floor space and storage with the King Mate’s Platform Storage Bed with 6-Drawers. At 18 in. deep, its six drawers can store any clothing, linens and blankets that go in a traditional chest, without taking up more room in your bedroom. With three drawers on each side, there’s room for everyone’s stuff. Don’t worry about a box spring: the slat support system needs only a mattress. Sleekly designed and practical, this mate’s bed lets you get the most out of your king sized mattress.

Suitable for standard king-sized mattresses
Sturdy drawers with solid wood sides glide on metal runners with built-in safety stops
Finger pulls at the bottom of each drawer front for easy opening
Wood slats positioned length-wise distribute body weight evenly to ensure a good night’s sleep
Finished in durable rich espresso laminate
Constructed from CARB-compliant, laminated composite woods
Ships ready to assemble, includes an instruction booklet for easy assembly and has a 5-year manufacturer’s limited warranty on parts
Assembled dimensions: 78.5 in. W x 18.75 in. H x 81.5 in. D
Internal drawer dimensions: 23.25 in. W x 5 in. H x 18 in. D

Thanks very much,

Hi Mattress,

I’m not familiar with the bed you are considering and I can’t see the details of its construction so I don’t know how strong it is, the type of center support, or the amount of flex in the slats. Normally if the slats are width wise then if they are 2" apart then the distance between them would be fine but it says that they are length wise so that’s a very long span and I would want to know how they were supported.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix, any issues of buying a latex mattress with a Polyfoam base, I have allergies to dust and mold. Also, if there is no problem am I still looking for HR 2.5 lbs/cubic feet or higher? And what is the max amount of inches to consider for the polyfoam base, should I only be looking for 2 inches and no more for the base? By the way when did it become so confusing when using the terms organic or natural, I have to drill retailers and even when they say 100 percent natural , I find there is a blend of some sort. Am I right in assuming Soy and Bio foam are not organic, I mean pure?

Thanks.

Hi Mattress,

You can see my comments about an all latex mattress vs a latex/polyfoam hybrid in post #2 here. They can be a good choice for someone in a lower budget range where an all latex mattress isn’t possible.

There is more about dust mite allergies and a link to more information about mattress encasements in post #2 here.

There is no lower or upper “limit” as long as the materials are good quality and suitable for your weight, budget, and your needs and preferences in terms of PPP. If the mattress is suitable for you in terms of PPP and the materials are good quality and the mattress is the best match for the parts of your personal value equation that are important to you compared to your other finalists then the thickness of the layers and components would be “right” for you.

Soy foam and Bio foam are just versions of polyfoam that have replaced a small portion of one of the two main chemicals used to make it (the polyols) with a soy or plant oil based derivative (see post #2 here). While it may be a small step in the direction of using more renewable and sustainable materials … there isn’t any polyfoam (regardless of whether some of the polyols are plant oil based) which is either natural or organic since most of the chemicals used to make polyfoam are petrochemicals.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix, so I called and visited several stores from the Factory Direct list. I find idealmattress too expensive for me, $3500-$3700 for a Talalay 10 inch mattress, I also found out their warranty is pro-rated. I called some others and I found two from your list that have great values, but they both said that they use glue on the different layers of latex, is that something that is common, does the glue now make it not such a great value, is the glue going to be harmful for me regardless of my allergies. Secondly, a second factory direct location gave great value , again from your list, but when I asked how they keep the layers of latex together, he said they use a light stapler, again should I avoid this mattress because the latex layers are stapled. Also, why do other places like Dormio not glue their latex mattresses, are the glued mattress poor quality even though the retailer said its 100 percent natural. Lastly, one of the factory guys on your list advised me that no latex mattress is ever 100 percent chemical free , he advised the best that could be offered is 70 percent pure and 30 percent chemical, is that true, can places like Dormio provided 100 percent chemical free latex mattresses or am I being fed a line, this factory direct manager is offering great value for the latex mattress I am interested in, 10 inches of talalay. The list that you provided is so helpful, I have to say if you think the glue and staple are not such a health hazard their quoted value is amazing, and if I purchase from them, I will certainly include their name and prices, for others to benefit from. Waiting for your thoughts, truly their quotes are of great , I know because I have talked to and visited several locations from the Factory Direct list.

Thanks.

Hi Mattress,

I don’t know what size you are looking at or what is included in the purchase but this would be in a fairly high budget range for a 10" Talalay latex mattress.

[quote]I called some others and I found two from your list that have great values, but they both said that they use glue on the different layers of latex, is that something that is common, does the glue now make it not such a great value, is the glue going to be harmful for me regardless of my allergies.

Also, why do other places like Dormio not glue their latex mattresses, are the glued mattress poor quality even though the retailer said its 100 percent natural.[/quote]

You can see my thoughts about glued vs loose layers (in a zip cover) in post #2 here and post #15 here. If the glue is water based and not solvent based then it would be fine for most people and glue is certainly not an indication of a poor quality mattress.

This would depend on what they mean by “stapling” and what layers are stapled to which other layers or components. Some innerspring mattresses for example use a type of stapling called “hog rings” to attach the upper layers to the innerspring and other mattresses use a type of staple that spreads out or splays into the foam on the sides to attach different materials or components such as a pillow top to the rest of the mattress so the layers and components don’t shift in use so these would both be preferable than not attaching some materials or components to the rest of the mattress.

It’s partly true and partly misinformation. It’s true that latex foam doesn’t only contain latex (see post #7 here) so even a latex core that was “100% natural latex” would have other substances that were necessary to make the foam but all the latex would be natural rather than synthetic. On the other hand … there are many versions of latex where the natural rubber content of the final core is 95% or higher.

No latex … even organic latex … is 100% chemical free (you can read about the organic certifications for latex here) but all the latex you are likely to encounter would have been certified by either Oeko-Tex or Eco-Institute so it would be “safe” by any reasonable standards. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here. It would be more accurate to say that it was free of any harmful chemicals or substances but there are some chemicals in every foam material although there is a great deal less of them in 100% natural latex than other foam materials (unless you consider the “chemicals” that are in the latex itself that the tree produces or that are in any natural material).

“Chemicals” are not the issue since almost everything is a chemical (even water). The real issue is whether any chemicals are harmful.

Hope this helps

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix, thanks for your responses and the additional posts that I just read. The $3500 was for a king size mattress with box and metal frame.So if I buy a finished latex mattress (glued layers) vs a zip cover, and for what ever reason I don’t like the feel of the layers, am I then out of luck? Thanks, the posts were very helpful. One of my friends just asked me, how much does this guy Phoenix charge you for his responses, so I told him, and he responded with “Wow, that’s rare these days>” Indeed it is, thanks again.

Hi Phoenix, thanks for your responses and the additional posts that I just read. The $3500 was for a king size mattress with box and metal frame.So if I buy a finished latex mattress (glued layers) vs a zip cover, and for what ever reason I don’t like the feel of the layers, am I then out of luck? Thanks, the posts were very helpful. One of my friends just asked me, how much does this guy Phoenix charge you for his responses, so I told him, and he responded with “Wow, that’s rare these days” Indeed it is, thanks again.

Hi Mattress,

That depends on the return or exchange policies of the store or merchant you are buying from and the costs involved.

If they have a return or exchange policy then you would still be able to choose another mattress out of the remaining choices they have available. In some cases a local manufacturer may also be able to open up the mattress and replace individual layers and then close it up again at a low or minimal cost as part of the service they provide to their customers.

If the mattress is too firm then you would still have the option of adding a mattress pad or topper to fine tune the mattress and add additional comfort/pressure relief…

If the mattress is too soft and doesn’t provide you with good support/alignment and you don’t have any options to exchange or return the mattress then you would be in a much more difficult position because there aren’t any great options to make a mattress that is too soft any firmer without removing and/or replacing the layers that are too soft (rather than adding layers on top of them).

In most cases … exchange or return policies are built into the cost of a mattress so that the people who don’t return or exchange a mattress pay for the ones who do so some people would rather pay less for a mattress if they are confident that it’s a good match in terms of PPP and is a good quality and durable choice than have a good return or exchange policy that they are confident they won’t need.

When you are making “value” comparisons I would compare “mattress only” to “mattress only” because the extras that are included in a purchase can lead to comparisons that can be distorted.

The most important part of the “value” of a mattress purchase is your confidence in how well a mattress matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP. No matter what the cost or value of a mattress in terms of the raw materials and components … if it isn’t suitable for you to sleep on then it would have little value to you.

The next most important part of a mattress purchase is the type and quality of the materials and whether there are any weak links in the design in terms of durability (see post #4 here). In this case … if all the materials are latex … then there would be no weak links in terms of quality and durability.

If there are lower quality materials in a mattress or an obvious weak link in the design then there would also be little value in a mattress purchase that was “perfect” at first but where lower quality and less durable materials softened, compressed, or began to break down prematurely which can result in the loss of its comfort or support and the need to replace the mattress long before you would have hoped for or where the price you paid would have made a shorter useful life “worth it” (the loss of comfort and support isn’t covered by a warranty).

After PPP and the type and quality/durability of the materials … then how a mattress compares to your other “finalists” based on all the other parts of your personal value equation that are important to you (including price) would also be important parts of the “value” of your purchase.

When you look back on a mattress purchase at the end of its useful life (hopefully in a decade or more down the road) … the thing you will remember most is how well you slept on the mattress and for how long you slept well before you crossed the “fuzzy line” into “tolerating” the mattress more than sleeping well on it (and eventually decided to replace the mattress). Relatively small differences in the cost per year of “sleeping well” will be much less significant.

Of course the price you pay and how a mattress compares to the other finalists that are available to you either locally or online (if you are comfortable considering an online purchase) in terms of cost or materials are always important parts of the “value” of a purchase as well and I wouldn’t knowingly pay more for a mattress than I needed to when another option that was “similar” in terms of the materials, PPP, and all the other ways that are important to you was also a good choice at a significantly lower price but price is only one part of the “value” of a purchase and in some cases (or for some people) may not be the most important part.

Once you are down to final choices that are comparisons between “good and good” and there are no “bad choices” or “weak links” in any of them then which one is “best or you” really depends on the criteria that are most important to you and the other finalists that you are comparing it to.

Phoenix

Thanks again, I will wait until next week when I visit the stores, and I definitely will find out more about their return/exchange policy for the complete mattresses.

Take care.

Hi Phoenix, I am going to see a retailer tomorrow for a great value latex mattress, can you please tell why do some retailers glue their layers together, is there some cost advantage to it, does it have something to do with poor quality quilt cover ? I read the post on glue vs zipper, but I do not believe the reason as to why they glue the latex layers in a mattress was provided.

Thanks.

Hi Mattress,

I’m not sure which post you read but post #2 here and the post it links to talks about the pros and cons of glued vs loose layers.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix , so I bit the bullet and bought a king size latex mattress ($1000) . I bought it from the Factory Direct location on your list that you had provided: New Dawn Mattress,500 Keele Street, Suite 304,Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M6N 3C9, (416) 595-0001. I dealt with a lady by the name of “Sheeba”. I arrive there as they had customized my mattress for me, it was 100 % Talalay latex, 2" latex soft, 2" latex soft to medium, and 5" medium to firm. I did buy a complete mattress, but when I was there I asked them to open it and they gladly did, so I was able to see the different layers of latex and touch them. I also bought a platform bed from them ($400), plus delivery, it came up to $1722.00. By now I knew the pros and cons of complete vs loose layered latex mattress, and I decided to save some money and risk it and go with glued layers. The quilt was made of 70% Aloe Vera and 30 % Cotton, I really did not pay attention to the quilt until after the sale, so I am not sure about Aloe Vera, the quilt felt like cotton and it was strechy to the touch. What are your thoughts on the quilt ? Thank you. I had visited and called several places prior to finding this location.

Sorry Phoenix, I forgot it is a two sided mattress , how does that work if I sleep on the firm side, will the softer latex on the base deteriorate over time ?

Hi Mattress,

I don’t know the specifics of the cover but an Aloe Vera cover would usually be a type of viscose fabric (like bamboo) which would be breathable and good with moisture wicking as well so it would probably be a very suitable choice. In some cases there are claims that a cover has been “treated” with Aloe Vera and if this is the case I wouldn’t buy into the story that somehow the Aloe Vera in a mattress cover will help the skin while you sleep (I doubt it would) but if it’s a viscose cover then it would be a good choice.

No … the bottom layer would be flat on the floor and would be compressing less and more evenly (not just in some spots and not in others like it would if the soft layer is on top) and the upper layers would absorb and spread out most of the pressure so the weight will be spread more evenly over the entire surface. In other words … the layer on the bottom will be “resting” and will be fine in terms of durability (see post #5 here).

You have different firmness levels in the comfort and support layers though on each side (unlike a more traditional 2 sided mattress which is the same on both sides) so turning it over would give you a firmer comfort layer and sleeping surface and would be less supportive in the deeper layers which may not work as well for you in terms of PPP. What it really does is gives you the choice of two firmness levels but it’s likely that you would only use one of them most of the time.

Thanks for the feedback … and congratulations on your new mattress :slight_smile:

It sounds to me like you did very well.

I hope you have the chance to share your feedback when you’ve had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix

Absolutely, I hope it works out, but spending a $1000 is a whole lot better than some of the quotes I was getting ranging from $2000-$3500. So I will test it out and update the readers that shop in the Toronto area hopefully to assist in anyway, as you have for myself .

Thanks again.

Hi Phoenix, I was wondering do you run any other knowledge based sites, and if not, can you get into hardwood flooring;next item I have to purchase:)

Thanks.

Hi Mattress,

Unfortunately I don’t have the time to run any other similar sites (this one takes up almost all of my waking hours) and my knowledge of hardwood flooring is very limited. I think my family may have something to say as well if I was to take on another project as time consuming as this one (or they would question my sanity) :slight_smile:

I did a google search for “hardwood flooring forum” though and there does seem to be a few that appear to be more knowledge based (I haven’t read them but I did a quick scan of the topic titles).

Phoenix