We just purchased a new 10" all natural talalay mattress from foam source in Boulder, CO. It is a king with split firmness. One side is (top to bottom) 2" N1, 2" N3, 6" N3, the other side is 2"N1, 2" N3 and 6" firm N4(could possibly be N5 , but I am not sure, I will find out tomorrow)
We are 5’11" 210, and 5’6" 140, side sleepers and occasional back sleepers. We are getting another 2" N1 layer to experiment with, going to add it to the top first making the mattress 12" then we will swap out the 2" N3 layer.
I am pretty happy with the softer side, I can tolerate the firmer side, but I’d like to sink into the mattress a bit more. My wife has a bit of hip pain in the am on the softer side. I also wouldn’t mind something a bit softer than the soft side. One of my concerns is that the 6" N3 might be too soft for a support layer. Do you think this is a valid concern? I tried a couple of PLB mattresses early on, and they seemed a bit wobbly from side to side which I didn’t like I don’t know if that was due to the softness or the 2 - 6" layers. I have read this forum ad nauseum, my OCD manifests itself during these big purchases, I don’t think we are too far off with the soft side, and I’d rather not introduce layer thickness into the equation unless it is going to make a big difference. My other concern is durability of the mattress if we go too soft. We came from a Stearns and Foster Silver Dream, which was pure heaven for the first couple of years until it started to develop impressions etc, and I really don’t want this mattress to start wearing out in 5-7 years. Do you think 12" is overkill? At this point another $400 for the additional layer is not a deal breaker, but if it is a waste and totally overkill, then we are willing to try other options. What configurations do you think might be worth trying. The good folks at FS have been very accommodating but I don’t want to be too much of a PITA with different layers and thicknesses etc. I appreciate any insight you could offer.
Jim
Hi Jimbo770,
Your own experience will be a more accurate way to assess any changes you may need to make than any theory I can offer (I can’t feel what you feel on a mattress) but post #2 here and the posts it links to has more information about the more common “symptoms” and some of the underlying causes that may contribute to them.
I can also make a few general comments about each side of your mattress.
This would be “in the range” that was suitable for a side sleeper of 140 lbs but if there are some pressure points then slightly softer or thicker comfort or transition layers would certainly be worth trying. The N3 (medium) in the middle layer may be slightly on the firm side for her and she may be feeling some of its firmness through the 2" of N1 on top of it and if this was slightly softer it may work better or provide more pressure relief for her hips. I would have been tempted to try an N2 in the middle layer which would soften up the sleeping surface a little but I would be cautious about using 4" of N1 which is quite a big change with a thicker layer of very soft latex and would be a little more risky in terms of alignment … especially with back sleeping. The risk would be a little less because of her lower weight but it would still be on the soft side “in theory”. Since you have the additional layer on the way then it would of course be worth trying it in both of the combinations you suggested (an additional layer on top or to replace the N3 layer in the middle) because your actual experience may be different from any “theory” but I would be cautious with 4" of N1.
In your case the N1 top layer is probably softer than I would use in your weight range and I would tend to use N2 both for alignment reasons and for durability reasons. 100% natural Talalay is a little less durable than the blend in softer ILD’s (although it’s still a durable material compared to other types of foam in the same firmness range) and with your weight the N1 may not hold up as well as firmer Talalay over the longer term. At the very least I would tend to avoid any more N1 comfort layers other than the one you already have.
For your wife it would probably be OK (depending on her experience) but I would agree that it may be too soft for you. I would stick with the N4 or N5 as a support layer because a softer support layer may be fine for her but it could risk your alignment with your higher weight.
It’s probably more than you would “need” but it’s certainly not more than some people would prefer but again your experience will be more important than any theory. Again though … I wouldn’t tend to use the N1 layers with your weight and certainly no more than a single layer if you do. Adding more thickness will also add more softness with higher ILD’s which would be a more effective approach for a softer sleeping surface with your weight than using softer N1 IMO.
The goal of a mattress is PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and I would prioritize them in that order. I would tend to make changes based on any actual symptoms you are experiencing rather than based only on subjective preferences which may lead to too many soft layers and put your alignment at risk.
Having said all this … your own sleeping experience is always more important than any theory.
Phoenix
Thanks for the reply. We really appreciate your help. We realize that our bodies will be the ultimate judge as to whether or not we have the right setup, I am just trying to avoid setting ourselves up for failure (ie 2 - 2" N1 comfort layers).
I found out today that my base layer is N5, which is good news, because the more I sleep on it, the more I want to toss it out the window. I woke up with back pain and my shoulders were sore. I rolled over to my wife’s side, and was immediately in a better place. My wife had some bad hip pain this morning. We have the second 2" N1 layer waiting for us so we are going to play around with it for a day or so.
I am thinking of switching my base layer to an N4, and try both 2" and 4" of N2 as comfort layers. For my wife, we are going to stick with her N3 base layer, and try 2" of N2, under 2" of N1.
Do you think there will be a noticeable difference between an N5 and N4 base layer? Same with an N1 and N2 comfort layer. The Foam Source said they used to offer N4 as a base option, but most people didn’t really feel a difference, so now they only order it in if someone specifically asks for it.
I don’t know if it is appropriate, but I would like to give a thumbs up to the foam source. The owner has said, they will swap layers, as many times as necessary, to make sure our mattress is perfect. We were going back and forth between 2 stores in Boulder, Urban Mattress and the Foam Source, and wound up going with the Foam Source because of the flexibility. It is unfortunate how often sales people will say whatever it takes to make a sale, and then are nowhere to be found when you need help, but this has certainly NOT been the case with the Foam Source.
We will let you know how the new configurations work out.
Thanks again,
Jim
Hi Jimbo770,
This would depend a lot on the firmness and thickness of the layers above it (with thicker comfort layers you would “feel” less of the deeper layers) and on the sensitivity of the person but it I don’t think it would make a big difference in the “feel” of the mattress for most people no … although depending on the specifics of the design it may affect how some people feel in the morning (the effects of sleeping out of alignment or support layers that are too soft are what you would tend to notice more when you wake up than when you go to sleep).
Again … this would depend on the other layers above or below any particular layer because every layer will have an effect on the feel and performance of the mattress but most people would probably notice this much more than a one step difference in a support layer.
The most common cause for lower back pain (assuming it’s in your lower back) is support or transition layers that are too soft or comfort layers that are too thick/soft. The most common cause of sore shoulders would be comfort layers that are too firm (or in some cases in cases where the comfort layers are so soft that you “go through” the top layers more and feel more of the firmness of the deeper layers). One of the paradoxes of mattress design and theory is that comfort layers that are too thin and/or soft that have very firm layers underneath them can feel firmer than the same mattress which has firmer or thicker comfort layers and a more gradual transition between the layers. The thickness of your pillow can also make a difference with shoulder pressure because a different mattress where you are sinking in more or less than your previous mattress can also result in the need for a change in pillows.
I think this would be a logical next step and would be a smaller incremental change and more of a “step by step” approach that would have less risk of “skipping over” the layering combination that may work best for her.
That’s absolutely appropriate and it’s good to hear. I always appreciate the forum members giving credit where credit is due. That kind of service from better manufacturers (in this case) or retailers is a big part of the “value” of a mattress purchase and each person’s personal value equation other than just the cost of the mattress itself. I’ve always believed that who you buy from and the level of knowledge, experience, and service they provide to their customers can be one of the most important parts of a successful mattress purchase.
Phoenix
We just put the second layer of N1 on the bed, first as a topper on top of the mattress and then we replaced the middle N3 layer. As you cautioned, it wasn’t a very good idea, the layers were too soft. As a topper it was better than as a replacement to the middle layer, but I don’t think it really got us any closer to the perfect configuration. That being said, we will still sleep on it for a night in each configuration.
Regarding alignment, would it be safe to say that if our spines are pretty straight, and we have no back pain in the am, we would be in a pretty good place regardless of firmnesses, thicknesses etc? I ask because I still sleep most comfortably on the softer side of the mattress. I think the comfort layers might be a bit soft because my shoulder is a bit tender in the am, but I have no back pain when sleeping on the softer side. As I said in the previous post, I can switch the N5 to an N4, but the only reason I would consider that would be from you and the FS suggesting the N3 might be too soft for a base.
One more question, then I’ll give you a break, I am sure I have exceeded my quota for the week, but presuming a mattress was providing a pain free night sleep, how long do you think it would take to start noticing a “breakdown” for lack of a better word (sagging, body impressions, lack of resiliency) between a 10" - 2" N1, 2" N2, 6" N3 and a 2" N2, 2" N2, 6" N 4 or 5. Basically, if the mattress my wife is sleeping on is comfortable for me and gives me no pain, how long till I have to start replacing layers?
Thanks,
Jim
Hi Jimbo770,
Don’t worry … there are no “quotas” here and if you are wondering or have certain questions then others will as well 
There are different types of alignment which are all important to make sure that the spine and joints are all inside their neutral range of flex when you are completely relaxed in all your sleeping positions (so the mattress is doing the work of keeping you in alignment rather than any tension in your muscles, tendons, or ligaments). This includes horizontal alignment (top to bottom) and rotational alignment (twisting) which can both be a cause of the pain or discomfort that goes with alignment issues. Post #6 here can help you “visualize” the goal of good alignment.
In some cases alignment issues can develop gradually and it can take time to experience symptoms (like other types of symptoms that develop gradually from repetitive experiences or movements) so I would make sure that you sleep on each combination for a few days because a single nights experience can be an anomaly. For example if the spine is decompressed then the discs will be able to rehydrate over the course of the night and maintain their flexibility but if they aren’t then it may take time to develop symptoms that come from the lack of flexibility. Twisting forces are usually worse than bending forces (most people can think of times when even some seemingly innocent twisting caused a back issue). There are three links in step 4 of the tutorial post that have more information about using a combination of visual and experiential cues to test for good alignment but in general terms if there is no obvious sagging when you check alignment visually (which can be a tip off for alignment issues that you don’t notice right away but may develop over the course of weeks or months) and your actual sleeping experience doesn’t produce any stiffness, discomfort, or back pain in the morning then the odds are good that your alignment is probably inside the range of flex that is fine for you.
There is more in post #4 here about all the variables that can affect the useful life of a mattress and influence when you cross the “fuzzy line” when you begin to experience some vague symptoms and begin to tolerate a mattress a little more and sleep well on it a little less. Like aging this is a gradual process that creeps up on everyone gradually over time. Because of this … there is no way to attach a number to this type of question because it will depend on so many variables including your own sensitivity to alignment issues and how close you are to the line between the range of “neutral alignment” that is suitable for you and being “out of alignment” (see post #2 here).
The only thing you can say with certainty is based on a comparison relative to something else and that more durable materials will maintain their properties and last longer than less durable materials, firmer layers will generally last longer than softer layers, deeper layers will generally last longer than layers that are closer to the sleeping surface, and that when it comes time to replace a mattress it will usually be because of the gradual loss of comfort and support over time that begins to produce symptoms rather than because the materials inside the mattress have completely “worn out” or broken down and this is relative to each person.
In the case of your specific example with the N1 layer it would clearly be less durable than your second alternative at your weight and in extreme cases it could be a matter of months or on the other end it could be a decade depending on your specific circumstances. If you are past 90 days or so and still “symptom free” and there are no subtle signs of pain or discomfort then it would most likely be measured in years.
Phoenix
I know I promised no more questions today so I’ll make it quick. After laying on 4" of N1 over the N3 and N5 bases, I am starting to think that support layers that are too soft might be a large part of the problem. I am going to try a couple of layers of N2. My question is would you consider using any N1 layers at all, or is the N1 so soft that, for someone of my size it isn’t really worth using? How about for my wife?
Hi Jimbo770,
While there are no hard and fast rules and it can also depend on the specifics of how all the layers interact together and with each person … I would personally tend to avoid N1 at your weight altogether or at the very least minimize it’s use (although I would lean towards avoiding it).
For your wife it would be more weight appropriate “in theory” and I would consider using it when necessary for PPP or for “feel” (with thinner layers) but I would still be cautious about using it in layers that were too thick because even at 140 lbs it can be risky with certain weight distributions (heavier in the hips for example) and softer layering underneath it if it allows her hips to sink down too far before being “stopped” by firmer layers.
Phoenix
I slept on N1,N1,N5 for a night and it was by far the worst night of sleep since getting the bed. Woke up with horrible lower back pain. Pretty much as expected, but now I can cross it off my list.My wife slept on N1,N1,N3 for the last two nights and while she did think it was too soft, she had no back pain and no shoulder or hip pain for the first night, and a little lower back pain on night 2.
Last night I slept on N3,N3,N5 and woke up with upper back pain. This configuration just seems too firm,the N3 didn’t work as a comfort layer. I have "hot spots all over today, especially on my shoulders. I experimented with pillow thickness, and unless I had a very big pillow under my head(to the point of causing neck pain) I couldn’t get the small of my back to get any support from the mattress in this config either.
So for now we are back to N1,N3,N5 for me and N1,N3,N3 for my wife. I am looking forward to experimenting with the N2 layer and hope 2" will be thick enough, I suspect 4" of N2 will be too thick for me, but I will give it a shot just to make sure.
We have a 2" - N2 on order, should arrive some time next week, I am still contemplating swapping my N5 base for an N4. Do you think I should hold off on the N4 core until after playing around with the N2 for a bit?
I read the topic with “fluffhead” I believe was the username, and he and his wife were smaller than me and my wife, but I was amazed by the configs they were sampling; N4,N5,N5. N4,N4,N5. M,M,F, and I just hope I am not being unreasonable about my expectations. The thought of sleeping on N4,N5,N5 after last night sleeping on N3,N3,N5, leaves me scratching my head.
Hi Jiimbo770,
It sounds like you could use the N2 layer that is coming so you can take a more incremental “step by step” approach that doesn’t end up “jumping over” the combination that would be best for you.
Based on your earlier descriptions … it seems to me that this has gone too far in the other direction (from one end of the softness spectrum to the other).
I would personally keep the N5 base and use a “bottom up” approach and build comfort layers on top of it that are suitable for you.
It can be surprising for many people how different people can be with their specific needs and preferences even when they appear to have similar body types and sleeping positions because there are so many variations in physiology and weight distribution and personal sensitivities and preferences along with variations in sleeping positions that can have a significant effect on how well a particular design works for someone. I have seen people that thought 40 ILD comfort layers were too soft when for most people they would be much too firm. I would always use your own experience as your reference point without considering whether it’s “right or wrong” based on “theory” or other people’s experiences. Each of us are unique when it comes to mattresses
Phoenix
Phoenix,
We are hoping our new 2" N2 layer will arrive sometime in this upcoming week, but in the mean time, I am having horrible nights of sleep on my current configuration, N1, N3, N5. One of the original suggestions when we first visited the store, was a 2" N1, 6" N3, 2" N5. Disregarding the N1 level (I am hoping the N2 will work out better) do you think a 2" base layer of N5 would be a reasonable suggestion? Do you think that might be too thin for a base layer? Do you think it could work for my wife(currently she is on 2" N1, 2" N3, 6" N3)? She still has hot spots on her hip some mornings. It seems like 8" of N3 might be a bit too much of a single ILD? As I said in previous posts, I sleep pretty comfortably on my wife’s side(I would prefer a bit more in the mattress feel) so maybe 2" of N2 over 6" of N3 might work. Finally, do you think 6" of a single firmness is a bit overkill? I am trying to avoid, bringing layer thickenesses into the equation, but whgen we laid on some toppers in the store, 3" thickness felt much nicer than 2", I wonder if the same might be true for the top comfort layer(s). The potential issue if we try a 3" top layer of N2, now our mattress is 11". The owner of the store said they could get a 12" cover if we wanted to go that way, I never asked about 11", and to be honest, it seems like we should be able to come up with some kind of 10" configuration that will work for both of us.
Jim
Hi Jimbo770,
It’s certainly reasonable as a bottom layer in terms of its firmness but whether it was suitable for any particular person would depend on the additional layers above it and whether the mattress as a whole was a good match in terms of PPP. The 6" of N3 above it would have a bigger effect on the feel and performance of the mattress and the 2" of N5 underneath it would have a smaller effect on the “feel” of the mattress because it’s deeper in the mattress so how it compared to another mattress would depend on the specific layering you were comparing it to. It would have “some” effect on support/alignment if you were comparing it to another mattress with the same layering above it that didn’t have the additional 2" layer under it or to another mattress that was otherwise the same that used a 2" layer on the bottom that was a different firmness. This is generally what would be considered a “stabilization layer” which can prevent the “jiggly” feeling of thicker layers of softer latex. The effects of deeper layers are generally less noticeable than the effects of upper layers.
I don’t know. It would depend on the reason for her hot spots and whether they were connected to pressure relief (which may need thicker or softer comfort layers) or the alignment of her hip joint from sinking too far into the mattress and putting her hip out of alignment (which would generally require firmer support layers or thinner/firmer comfort layers.
When you are trying to decide how to change a mattress it’s important to decide on the most likely underlying cause of any symptoms you experience on a mattress so that you can make changes in the layers that will have the biggest effect. More “random” changes or changes that don’t address the underlying cause of the issues someone is having can quickly become overwhelmingly complex and difficult to assess and have much less chance of success and generally lead to significant frustration. The multiple combinations you have suggested or asked about and your more general descriptions of how you felt are already more complex than I can follow without more specific and detailed reference points.
Post #2 here along with the post it links to that lists many of the forum posts that discuss fine tuning a mattress have much more information about the different symptoms that people may experience on a mattress and some of the possible causes for them but you will need to decide based on your sleeping experience on each combination whether you are looking to change pressure relief, support, or “feel”.
Fine tuning pressure relief generally means changing the thickness or firmness level of the comfort and transition layers in the mattress. Fine tuning support generally means changing the thickness or firmness of the transition or support layers of the mattress. the more subjective “feel” of a mattress is more subjective and comes after alignment and pressure relief (which is what your body “feels” when you are asleep).
You are dealing with complex layering that would require more detailed conversations or at least much more specific reference points and descriptions of the specific symptoms you are having on a specific combination and the specific effects of any changes you make and whether they are an improvement or make things worse so you can identify the “direction” of changes that are most likely to help deal with the symptoms you are experiencing. If a symptom improves after sleeping on it for a few nights then it’s a good indication that things are going in the right direction. If they get worse then it’s a good indication that they are going in the wrong direction. Your specific experience on each combination and how it compares to the others along with small incremental changes can provide the information that is necessary to help you decide on the “best” possible combination. Your actual experience will be a much more effective basis for deciding on the next change than any theory.
The next step IMO would be to incorporate the N2 layering into the mix when you receive it.
What I would suggest for the forum to help to the degree that any written descriptions can help (they are never as effective as verbal communications when you are dealing with complex issues) is a separate “reference” post (you can use the reply to this post) that lists a specific layering headed “combination #1” followed by a detailed description of your specific “symptoms” and experience on that layering after a few nights (one night can too easily be an anomaly) along with your thoughts about whether the symptoms were connected to pressure relief or alignment. This can help with discussing and deciding on the the next combination to test. Once you have slept on the new combination for a few nights then you can edit the reference post and add “combination #2” with another analysis of your symptoms and experience on that combination and how they changed relative to “layering #1”. This can help identify patterns and combinations that make things better or worse and can give a much more clear sense of the next change that is worth trying.
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,
Out of curiosity, how do N1, N2, N3, N4, and N5 relate to the ILD chart listed on LI’s site?
http://www.latexfoam.com/latex-material/components
I guessing
Comfort layers
N1 is 19
N2 is 24
N3 is 28
Cores
N4 is 32
N5 is 36
Is this roughly correct?
Thank you
Sorry Phoenix, but I have another theoretical question. I know you love these;)
I have been keeping a log as you suggested, and due to my deplorable typing skills, I haven’t gotten it on this thread. I will say we are very close to finding a configuration that works for us.
1-Early in this process we experimented with a configuration that was way too soft for both of us. My base layer is 6" of N5, my wife 6" of N3. for this configuration. Both of us had 2 layers of 2" N1. We both woke up with lower back pain. Comfort layers were too soft even with a very firm core.
2-A subsequent configuration we tried was same cores for both of us with 2" of N1 over 2" of N2. With this configuration on the firm core -N5- I would like a slightly softer feel, BUT I woke up with no back pain and no hot spots, shoulder hips etc. When I slept on the other side -N3 core- I had very slight lower back pain in the morning. This configuration was just a bit too soft. My thinking is the N3 core was a bit too soft and the comfort layers were not the issue.
My reasoning was that when I have very soft comfort layers over a very firm core (scenario 1)I still had lower back pain, but in scenario 2 I didnt have any lower back pain on the firmer core, but I did on the softer core. So I was considering trying an N4 core to split the difference and see if that would do the trick. Does that seem reasonable?
Hi Jiimbo770,
I think your reasoning is sound
This would make sense because your lower back and pelvis is probably sinking down too far before it’s “stopped” by the firmer support layers.
This would also make sense and follow “theory” because the slightly firmer N2 layer would reduce the amount your lower back and pelvis was sinking into the mattress compared to the softer comfort layers of the same thickness in the previous configuration.
This would also make perfect sense and follow “theory”. All the layers of a mattress compress simultaneously (one doesn’t start compressing when the ones above it are “finished” compressing) but they each compress a different degree based on their firmness level, thickness, what is above them, and how deep they are inside the mattress. Softer layers compress more than firm layers, thicker layers compress more than thinner layers, all layers compress less when there are thicker or firmer layers above them, and upper layers compress more than deeper layers. This means that even though it’s deeper in the mattress … changing the core by two firmness levels would still have some effect on how much your lower back and pelvis sinks into the mattress … it’s just a little more subtle and not as big an effect as changing the upper layers to the same degree.
While I would be tempted to keep the N5 just because it doesn’t seem to be causing issues, because I would prioritize alignment over “feel”, and because there could be some risk that the N4 may be just on or over the threshold of being too soft either initially or over time … you are also correct that it would soften up the mattress slightly and slightly increase the amount you are sinking in vs the N5 and would be in between the N3 and the N5 core.
Phoenix