Question as I continue to go through options: Am I right to believe that Ultimate Dreams’ “Natural” model would be a better fit for me, since it has a 2 lb polyfoam support core (as opposed to a 1.5 lb core in the normal model)? (I also suspect that Dunlop may be more to my taste, based on the stated differences between it and Talalay latex, but that’s an aside for now…)
Hi drm870,
Yes … the 2 lb polyfoam would be more durable and with your weight you would compress the deeper layers below the latex more so the difference in durability would be more important than it would for someone that was in a much lower weight range.
Phoenix
Well, I’m inching closer to the time when the purchase shall be made. Some circumstances have delayed it so far, but I’m getting there. I’ve narrowed it down to the Dreamfoam 12-in-1 ($399) with an extra firm layer in place of the soft layer, the Tuft & Needle 10 ($600), or the new Brooklyn Bedding mattress ($700) for its relatively high-quality specs for the price.
There is something I hadn’t mentioned earlier, that perhaps I should have been more forthcoming about: I will not be paying for the mattress in full. I still live with my parents, and they’ll be footing at least part of the bill. They’d like for the bed’s price to stay as close to $500 (or under) as possible, though I think I can convince them to go for a more expensive mattress if I pay for a greater part of the cost. The bigger problem, though, is convincing them to go for an online mattress. I’ve run it by them before, and they aren’t exactly comfortable with the prospect of purchasing a mattress for me that I haven’t actually tried yet. The only mattresses I have found in my area that comes close to their price preference are a $599 Simmons BeautyRest (I know, I know), a $599 Southerland, and a $449 Symbol set – none of which I’ve been able to get the full specs on. In any case, any ideas on how I can convince them to give an online purchase a try? (And no, I’m not sure showing them this forum will do it – even though it has for me. 
)
PS. Confounding the issue is that I personally think they should get a new mattress soon, too – my dad’s side of my parent’s bed has a quite noticeable visible (!) body impression at this point.
Hi drm870,
I really don’t know how to “convince” anyone about anything other than just telling them the facts and letting them make up their own minds.
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The choices you are considering are higher quality/value and more durable choices than the mattresses you are considering locally.
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They have great options after a purchase (either by rearranging layers with the 12 in 1 customizable or a free return policy with the others) so there is little to no risk in trying them and you can use your bedroom instead of a showroom to test them.
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You could point out the impression in their mattress and they could try it themselves and may even decide that it’s a better mattress than the one they are currently sleeping on.
IMO all of these would be compelling points but of course you know your parents better than I do and I have no way to know how they would respond to any of them.
Phoenix
Well, talked with the 'rents. They indicated that, when the time comes to buy, they’d be willing to give the Dreamfoam 12-in-1 (with an extra firm layer in place of the soft) a try. The relatively low price and the customizability won them over, as they perceived it to be a lower risk as a result. (The lack of of those aspects in the Brooklyn Bedding and Tuft & Needle mattresses turned them off from them, so I hope the 12-in-1 works.)
One question: I brought up buying a wireframe foundation, and my father asked “Why wouldn’t your current box springs work?” I replied that more modern mattresses work best on a solid foundation. He then said, “Well, couldn’t we just put a piece of plywood over your current box springs?” I knew where he got the idea from: He did something similar back before I was born with his own mattress to firm it up. So my question is: Besides almost certainly voiding the warranty, are there any other reason to avoid running with this idea? I have enough money that I could (unlike with the mattress) offer to buy a foundation on my own if needed.
Hi drm870,
[quote]Well, talked with the 'rents. They indicated that, when the time comes to buy, they’d be willing to give the Dreamfoam 12-in-1 (with an extra firm layer in place of the soft) a try. The relatively low price and the customizability won them over, as they perceived it to be a lower risk as a result. (The lack of of those aspects in the Brooklyn Bedding and Tuft & Needle mattresses turned them off from them, so I hope the 12-in-1 works.)[/quote].
That’s good news
You can see my thoughts about a solid surface support system in post #10 here. It would probably be fine in terms of providing suitable support for the mattress but there would be some additional risk because the plywood wouldn’t provide any ventilation or airflow under the mattress. It would probably be fine in terms of meeting the warranty criteria as well (although if the mattress did develop any mold or mildew issues then it probably wouldn’t be covered by a warranty) but I would check with Dreamfoam just to make sure.
Phoenix
An update: We’re still waiting for some work on my bedroom to be complete before we buy me a new mattress. I couldn’t help but notice that not only has the Dreamfoam website been redone, but the Ultimate Dreams mattress now says it comes with a 1.8 lbs polyfoam core instead of a 1.5 lbs one. Would that put it closer to the Tuft & Needle as a “lower budget compromise” mattress?
I ask because I bought a Simmons solid latex pillow recently and couldn’t help but notice how well it conformed to my head (while still being supportive) vs. my down alternative pillow. I have to think a mattress that has latex could be similar, even if it’s just present in the comfort layers. I know the #BME would probably be better in my weight range, but the Ultimate Dreams is relatively close to my parents’ $500 limit when applying the 10% off code.
Anyway, any thoughts?
Hi drm870,
It’s always nice to see when a manufacturer is able to upgrade their specs without changing their prices and in a word yes … the quality/density of their base foams are now the same as Tuft & Needle and many of the other “simplified choice” mattresses (although the BestMattressEver uses 2 lb polyfoam which is higher quality yet) although of course they are in a different category because they use Talalay latex in the comfort layers which is a more costly material than the high performance polyfoam that Tuft & Needle uses in their comfort layer. While the choice between different types of materials is more of a preference choice than a better/worse" choice … neither one of them have any weak links in their design in terms of durability for anyone but those that are in much higher than average weight ranges (mid to higher 200’s or higher) where the density of the base foam would play a more significant role in the durability and useful life of a mattress.
Phoenix
Well, we still haven’t pulled the trigger on anything yet, but I think the time is getting closer – my father discovered a spring sticking out of his bed when he cut his leg on it. Given my parents’ bed sags on his end as well, I think he’s starting to realize both their and my mattresses need to be replaced.
Anyway, I gave Dreamfoam a call a while ago to see if a Cushion Firm would be good for their Ultimate Dreams mattress, given I had liked the feeling of said firmness when trying out beds elsewhere. (He said “yes”) I did in the process find out one problematic issue: whoever told me the 12-in-1 could be layer swapped (and I remember it not being Chuck) was wrong, apparently, as he said they only do that for the Freedom. In any case, my plan now is to buy a Tuft and Needle and try it out. I think they’d be better to start with as their return policy is better than Dreamfoam’s. If I don’t like it, I’ll donate it to charity, get my (read: our) money back and buy the Ultimate Dreams. (I know the #BME would probably be a better fit for me with my weight, but I don’t see them stretching to $750 over the other two $600 options.)
I’ll post again when anything happens.
Hi drm870,
The Freedom and the 12 in 1 are both less likely to need a layer exchange or a return since there are 12 different firmness combinations available with both of them so you can customize the mattress after a purchase and eliminating the exchange option is part of the reason for the lower cost relative to other similar mattresses (exchange and return options are built in to the cost of a mattress).
Having said that, you’ve certainly made a good quality/value choice … and congratulations on your new mattress
I’m looking forward to finding out how you like it when you’ve received it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.
Phoenix
I think you misunderstood a couple of my comments. I was talking about ordering a firm or medium layer in place of the soft with the 12-in-1, as you suggested for someone in my weight range, not exchanging the layer after the sale. Apparently they allow the former option for the Freedom but not the 12-in-1 after all. 
More importantly, though, your congrats indicates that you think I’ve ordered a mattress already, which I haven’t. I was just running though what my plan is for when we do order (which, like I said, will likely be sooner rather than later at this point).
Hi drm870,
I did misunderstand you and I thought you were talking about layer exchanges … thanks for the clarification.
I thought you had already made your decision even though you hadn’t actually made your purchase yet so I guess I’ll have to retract my “congratulations” as well until you actually make your final decision and pull the trigger.
Phoenix
Ah, I see what you were saying. (Now I had the misunderstanding!) While my plan isn’t firm yet, I’m hoping to be able to convince my parents to play along. I’d rather have a mattress that I can sleep on for a while than one that breaks down, even if it means I have to pay for part of it as part of the bargain.
By the way, did I ever thank you for all the information you provide on this site? It sure has been helpful!
Hi drm870,
It’s great to hear that the site has been helpful … and thanks for the kind comments
Phoenix
I had an interesting experience today. At the suggestion of a friend, I went to Kittle’s to view their Mattress MAXX area. They unfortunately only had the major brands, as I expected, but the “Sleep Specialist” there (I put that in quotations as I’m unsure of his credentials) had me A) take a BedMATCH scan to see which firmness I needed, and B ) checked my spine for alignment (both while laying on my back and while in my preferred sleeping position) while on certain mattresses. Given my current weight (~350) it recommended all the way to the right (in the red area). In other words, it almost sounded like the firmer the mattress, the better for me. This, combined with his manual spine-alignment checking, makes me wonder if a cushion-firm firmness isn’t really what I need in terms of support, even though it is what I subjectively leaned toward in terms of comfort during initial testing.
Don’t get me wrong, I know that the BedMATCH system is more of a marketing tool than anything. One thing that makes me wonder if there’s any validity to it, though: when I asked Mario at Brooklyn Bedding which #BME firmness he’d recommend for me (given my stats), he said “Firm”. Given that they allegedly recommend “Medium” for an estimated 95% of their buyers, it does again make me wonder if I actually need a firmer mattress than I had previously realized. Any thoughts, Phoenix?
Hi drm870,
[quote]This, combined with his manual spine-alignment checking, makes me wonder if a cushion-firm firmness isn’t really what I need in terms of support, even though it is what I subjectively leaned toward in terms of comfort during initial testing.
Don’t get me wrong, I know that the BedMATCH system is more of a marketing tool than anything. One thing that makes me wonder if there’s any validity to it, though: when I asked Mario at Brooklyn Bedding which #BME firmness he’d recommend for me (given my stats), he said “Firm”. Given that they allegedly recommend “Medium” for an estimated 95% of their buyers, it does again make me wonder if I actually need a firmer mattress than I had previously realized. Any thoughts, Phoenix? [/quote]
There are no “standard” definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like “medium” for someone else or even “soft” for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they “rate” a mattress as well (see post #15 here) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science. In other words … “cushion firm” or “firm” don’t have any specific or “standardized” meaning.
Having said that … there is also some information in post #3 here and the posts it links to that would be helpful for those that are in higher weight ranges. While the process of how to choose a mattress would be the same … most people in higher weight ranges will generally need or prefer firmer mattresses (firmer materials will feel softer because you will sink into them more because of your higher weight) and materials and components that are higher quality and more durable (the materials and components in a mattress will soften and break down faster for those in higher weight ranges than they will for someone that is in a lower weight range that doesn’t compress the mattress as much) so I would reduce or minimize the use of lower density materials that would be suitable for people that are in more “average” weight ranges and focus more on higher quality/density and more durable materials (5 lb or higher memory foam, latex, or 2 lb or higher polyfoam) … especially in the comfort layers of a mattress which are more likely to soften or break down before the deeper layers or components in a mattress.
There is also more about primary or “deep” support and secondary or “surface” support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the “roles” of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between “support” and “pressure relief” and “feel”.
While it’s not possible to predict which specific mattress will be the best “match” for any specific person in terms of comfort and PPP because of all the many variables involved … in very general terms and based on “averages” I would agree that those that are in your weight range would generally do better on firmer mattresses (both in the comfort and support layers or components) than the large majority of people that are in more average weight ranges.
Phoenix
One other thing…
So far, the Bowles mattress stores (Walls and Longs) have impressed me the most out of the brick & mortar options, so I’m kind of gravitating toward them as a possible back up if my parents don’t go along with an online mattress purchase. Additionally, since their mattress is also starting to give way I’m kind of shopping with them in mind as well as myself, and even if I get a mattress online I’m pretty sure they’d want to go the in-store option for themselves. With all this in mind…I found a Bowles mattress that, as far as I can tell, could be better spec-wise than the Silver Imperial, despite costing a bit less. What are your thoughts:
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Hi drm870,
[quote]With all this in mind…I found a Bowles mattress that, as far as I can tell, could be better spec-wise than the Silver Imperial, despite costing a bit less. What are your thoughts:
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The specs you listed don’t include the foam densities which are the most important information. If you can find out the information listed in this article and post it on the forum I’d be happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials and the mattress as a whole. Without this information it’s not possible to make any meaningful comments about the quality or durability of any mattress.
Phoenix
To give you some insight into my reasoning…I had thought since it had only 1.25" foam material per side in the quilting (the comfort layer is said to be made of “fiber”) and since it was double-sided that it’d be alright. In any case, I have emailed them to find out the foam densities.
Hi drm870,
The link you listed shows .75" in the comfort layer, another 1.25" in the quilting which is a total of 2" (assuming that there aren’t any additional layers that aren’t listed).
Fiber layers can also tend to pack down and form impressions similar to lower quality polyfoam.
I would also make sure that the mattress is a good “match” for you in terms of PPP since there isn’t a lot of padding in the mattress and I would make sure that the springs are firm enough to support your body weight.
Phoenix