Need some help here

I sound like Goldilocks but here it is
3 years ago I bought a three piece dunlop latex bed in which the layers came from mountain top. The six inch core is firm (#4, the salesman said), so is the 3" piece but the other 3" piece is #2 ( soft). I have not been without backpain since! The soft was worse for me than the firm. I asked him what the Ild rating and pounds per square foot was but he didn’t know.
I bought a feather topper. No good. A 2" memory foam topper. Too hard.
I am now at the point where I want to swap out the too soft layer for a medium. Said I sounded like Goldilocks!!! Right? Would you suggest Dunlop or talalay? If Dunlop, what ILD sand what firmness? Same question if you say talalay? And 3"? And whose brand. ? I am now considering the pure green on Amazon. 3", medium. Would that be a good choice.?
Oh, and I am am an elderly, heavy lady.
I have read so much. Now totally confused. I don’t want to waste any more money. So I want the right thing.

Hi Rjb38,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

I’m sorry to hear about your back issues. :frowning: Unfortunately, I can’t diagnose nor make recommendations as to what might fix your problems via an online forum, as there are entirely too many individual variables involved in each person’s own comfort preferences. Additionally, you’re not aware of exactly what you have regarding foam layers (we know that the latex is from Mountain Top, which means that it is Dunlop, but you don’t have ILDs or densities). I’ll do my best to provide you some general guidelines which you may find helpful.

There is some information about the many different symptoms that people may experience on a mattress and some of the most common causes behind them in post #2 here that may be helpful. The most common reason for lower back pain is a mattress that has comfort layers that are too thick/soft or a support core that is too soft. In your situation you state that the 6" support core is firm, and then I believe you have another 3" firm layer and then a 3" soft layer. As you are heavier, my best guess would be that the uppermost plush layer is too soft for your personal preference. You’re not specific on the exact combinations that you tested out with the wool and the memory foam (I don’t know if those were placed upon the existing mattress or in place of the 3" soft layer), but placing memory foam on top of a mattress generally wouldn’t make it feel “firmer”, as memory foam is generally a quite soft material. It may have caused you to “feel through” to the deeper firm layers, which you experienced as a bit of a firmer feel.

I think your thoughts of replacing the soft layer with a firmer layer (medium) would be a good start. With the layers you have right now, have you attempted rearranging them so that the soft layer is in the middle with the firm 3" layer on top, or have you tried the mattress without the soft layer completely?

If the latex was continuous pour from Mountain Top, their ILD ratings are as follows:

Their 25% ILD ranges are …
C0 9.5 - 12.5 ILD
C1 11.5 - 14.5 ILD
C2 17.5 - 20.5 ILD
C3 21.5 - 24.5 ILD
C4 29.5 - 32.5 ILD

Their 40% ILD ranges are
ILD Range
C0 14 - 20 ILD
C1 18 - 22 ILD
C2 27 - 33 ILD
C3 34 - 42 ILD
C4 44 - 54 ILD

The closest ILD approximations to Talalay for each of their different firmness levels for individual layers would be somewhere in the lower end of their 40% ILD range. It’s possible the #2 and #4 were the C2 and C4 from this chart, so you can see the C3 would be between those two softnesses.

While I can’t speak to how any specific topper will feel to you in combination with your mattress … the Pure Green topper is 100% natural Dunlop latex which is certainly a high quality and durable material but if you can’t test a mattress/topper combination in person then the only way to know whether any topper will be a good “match” for you in terms of “comfort” firmness, and PPP will be based on your own personal experience when you sleep on it.

The choice between different types and blends of latex is a preference and budget choice more than a “better/worse” choice. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is also more about some of the general differences between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here but again the most reliable way to know which type of topper or which type of latex you tend to prefer will be based on your own careful testing or personal sleeping experience. Talalay will tend to have a bit more of a “lively” or Buoyant feel than Dunlop the continuous pour Dunlop from Mountain Top seems to fall in between these two), and at the same ILD a piece of Dunlop will “firm up faster” than the similar ILD piece of Talalay.

If you do decide to purchase the Pure Green topper I would also check the Sleep On Latex site (they are a site member here, which means that I think highly of them) because the price for the same topper may be lower (I can’t get on amazon right now to compare prices – their site is experiencing some issues.) Also, Sleep on Latex’s exchange and return policy can be considered the same or better than Amazon’s.

Because Sleep On Latex protects itself against the code harvesters you can request the code in a Private Message or email. Alternatively you can always place your order over the phone (312.487.2865) and mention that you are a member of The Mattress Underground to receive your discount.

I wouldn’t be as concerned with the brand of the latex pourer, as most latex is a high quality and durable material.

Overall, it sounds as if you are moving in a logical direction with slightly firmer upper comfort layers, but in the end the only way to tell would be through your own personal testing. And as heavier individuals tend to need/prefer thicker comfort layers, I think your thoughts of staying with the 3" layer are also good. Post #3 here has more information and suggestions about higher BMIs that is worth reading.

Phoenix

Thanks for the reply.
I have a little more info. The layers I purchased from mountain top were a 6" c4 core, a 3" c4 layer and a c0 3" layer. With the C0 on top, too soft and low back aches. With the 3" c4 on top, too hard and hurt all over. I then bought a 2" latex topper ( soft) ( 16 Ild)from Amazon to put on top of the c4 3" layer but that didn’t work either.
Now the sleeponlatex people are telling me that they think their 2" soft will work. (20 Ild)(But isn’t that pretty much the same as what I bought from Amazon (which was 16)?
I am thinking that maybe the 3" medium which is 30 Ild, might be right.
They will allow only one exchange. So, in you estimation, which way should I go first?
And to answer your other question…I put the C0 in the middle and then added the Amazon topper ( no go), then tried the linrnspa 2" memory foam topper (again on top of the c3( ouch…awful) and finally tried the feather top (again on top). Nope!
So this is where I am now.
Sleep on latex person 1 said to go for the 3" med. ( Replacing the, c0. And putting it on top)Got accidentally disconnected. And when I called back, the next person said that the 2" soft would be better… Replacing the 3" c0.
Your wisdom, please? Which way do I go?
And by the way, they only allow ONE exchange or return. So I am hoping to hit it on the first try!

One more thing, please. Should I stay with Dunlop or consider talalay? And if the latter, what height(2" or 3) and which Ild firmness would you suggest?.I know talalay is a bit different from Dunlop.

Hi Rjb38,

Thanks for the clarification on the layers you currently have. You didn’t mention what type of latex the topper is that you bought from amazon (Dunlop or Talalay). If it is Dunlop, then at a 16 ILD, the 20 ILD from SOL would feel slightly firmer. If your amazon topper is a 16 ILD Talalay, then the 20 ILD SOL Dunlop topper would feel a bit more firm as compared to if the amazon topper was Dunlop. As I mentioned in my previous reply, Dunlop in a similar ILD to Talalay will tend to feel firmer because of its higher compression modulus (“firms up faster”).

None of these are configurations I would suggest, based upon the information you provided in your original post. I was more curious if you had placed the C0 between the C4 for and the C4 topper. But I see you state that the C4 feels a bit too firm to you.

Again, as I stated in my previous reply, I can’t predict what might feel best for you. That can only be determined through your own personal testing. Based upon your previous comments, the more “medium” would seem to be a logical choice. And as I also mentioned in my last reply, the 3" seems to be a good idea, per the information you provided being in a higher BMI range (and the information I linked to about higher BMIs in my last reply). If you desire a bit more of a solid/dense comfort, the Dunlop would be a logical choice. Should you desire a “lighter” soft feel (which you don’t seem to indicate), then the Talalay may be a choice to consider.

There are very few topper suppliers who allow for even a single topper exchange, so that’s definitely a bonus from Sleep on Latex. But as you mentioned, it’s always a goal to find something that works initially. :wink:

Phoenix

Thanks so much. I will let you know how it turns out.

Hi Rjb38,

I’ll be interested in learning about what you eventually decide to do.

Phoenix

I am going to call sleeponlatex in the morning. Just read about 40 customer reviews. Some say the 3" medium is perfect. Others say it it’s too firm. I already have too firm latex. I don’t need more!!! Now quite confused.
Also, as I’ve said, I’m an elderly heavy lady. Yes, they say I can box it up and return it but it is about 60 pounds. I think I can barely unbox it and get it on the bed… No less think about boxing it up to return if not right!
Am thinking now of getting one or two 1 inch toppers in med.(I can physically handle that) Maybe the 2" in medium? So confused. I don’t need support. I already get that in the bed. I need comfort and relief from the back pain that I THINK is from the mattress being too hard and with the C0 Dunlop that I originally got causing the same back pain as too soft. According to mountaintop, that was about 16Ild.
Thoughts? Am trying very hard not to have to return this thing! As that, in itself, would be an ordeal!!

Hi Rjb38,

Reading reviews will only serve to confuse you even more and would be the least reliable indicator of what might work best for you, due to your current unique configuration upon which you’d be placing these topper layers, as well as your own individual preferences. Besides your own personal testing of a product, then next most reliable source of information would be a detailed phone conversation with a manufacturer who would have the most experience with their own products and how they tend to react with different applications, body types and sleeping preferences.

I wouldn’t advise to change the selection of a particular product based upon the potential for what might have to occur for an exchange/return. If that situation arose, you can always ask for a brief amount of assistance from a friend, neighbor or family member.

You seem to be searching for a finite degree of certainty in a situation where there is none, and are basing your decision around the potential for a return, instead of around an educated best guess for appropriateness of a material based upon advice from a knowledgeable manufacturer. There will come a point where you have to make a best guess based upon more objective advice and then actually test out the product. At least if something doesn’t work out you will have the potential for making an exchange.

Phoenix

Thanks, Phoenix. Believe it or not, I have spoken with mountaintop, asking what the Ild of the c4 and c0. She did not know and wouldn’t transfer me to someone who did! I then called sleeponlatex, told them my story and the girl in customer service just kept repeating the same spiel: if you want a firm feel i would go with the medium and if you want a softer feel, I would go with the soft. She didn’t know the ild of either and it wouldn’t even matter as it is a different product. Just sounded like she was reading a script! Then I spoke with spindle who USES mountaintop and he said they only sell entire mattresses and he couldn’t help me but that if I photo the tags on the layers, he might know where to send me for help and he might also be able to tell me the Ild of my soft layer. If it is way lower than the soft of Sol, I will go with their soft which is an Ild of 20( mine might be as low as 14-16 or maybe lower). I think the med might be too hard as it is 30-34, I believe.So that’s where it stands now.
I do understand what you are saying and I agree. I am trying to make the best choice in hopes that it doesn’t require a return.
Will let you know how this turns out.
BTW, the guy at spindle even thinks I might be better off starting with a spring mattress covered with latex. Not at all sure I agree with that. Your thoughts?
Hate the idea of starting over as I am already invested to the tune of $2000 plus four toppers I have tried, coming to another$800!
But will do anything not to wake in pain.

Hi Rjb38,

I provided you that information in my first reply in this thread.

That would be an accurate statement. While I wasn’t a part of your phone conversation, a topper will depend upon the product upon which it is placed for its overall comfort, and if you were asking the consultant for a degree of certainty that you are attempting to achieve here on the forum, that would be the most accurate answer they would be able to provide to you.

Phoenix

So, update. I decided I wanted to soften my hard Dunlop core. I ordered the 3" soft latex topper from sleeponlatex.com. it was perfect. I have slept on it 3 nights now and the back pain is gone! First time in three years. The soft is not as"soft" as one would think. It has quite a bit of support and yet soft enough to be extremely comfortable. The people at sleep onlatex.com said that the medium would feel too firm if my core was already extremely firm… I can just imagine, now, that it would feel way too firm… At least for my comfort.
Thanks so much for all your input. And, oh, yes, they gave me the mu discount. So, thanks for that, also.
I came say enough about how helpful you’ve been and also the people at sleeponlatex. Com
By the way, there was no smell to the latex; it rolled open easily, puffed up immediately and was extremely easy to put on the bed. I followed the directions … Which were to put it on the bed before unwrapping…unwrap and roll it out there! Easy!

Hi Rjb38,

Thanks for your update, and congratulations on your new Sleep on Latex topper working out so well for you so far! :cheer: I’m glad that their advice was good and appropriate for your situation.

I hope that you continue to sleep well, and thank you for the kind words. And I’m glad you received your TMU discount as well.

Phoenix

So, here it is, 6 weeks later and the soft did not work. At first I thought it did, but as time went on, began to wake with back pain again. I called sleeponlatex and they are allowing me to exchange for the medium 3" topper …even though I am past the exchange period! What wonderful people.
I will try this. If it stops the back pain, but causes pressure point soreness, as I am a side sleeper, they said I could put a soft topper on top. Would you then recommend 1" or 2" ?
By the way, because of the amazing help of this company I would highly recommend them to anyone who wants Dunlop latex!!!

Hi Rjb38.

I am sorry to hear that the pains have returned. It seems that the adjustment/break in period shows this to be too soft/too thick of an upper comfort layer for your needs and may be contributing to poor alignment with allowing to “sink in” too much.

The good news is that you are working side by side with one of our Trusted Members that has your best interests at heart. As you already experienced with Sleep on Latex, they are very helpful and have a wealth of knowledge and experience behind them and I suggest that you follow closely their recommendations as to the thickness of a possible topper. There is no one better equipped fine tune their systems or that would know what combination is most likely to have the best rate of success for your specific needs. Hopefully after allowing your body to adjust to the new comfort layer change you will not need to purchase a new topper.

I’m looking forward to any comments or updates about your mattress or mattress/ topper combo

Phoenix

That’s the rub when it comes to ordering online versus trying a mattress out in a store. It’s difficult for anyone to advise you about your needs with any real certainty. If returning what you already have isn’t an option, the only thing I can suggest is to add a latex topper to the mix that is different from any of the latex you already have so that you can play mad chemist with all the components and hopefully come up with something suitable for you. Maybe going with a Talalay in medium density will be different enough from what you have on your bed now. I recently got a 3" queen medium from mattresstoppers.com, part of Brooklyn Bedding, to replace an aging topper. It’s made of blended Talalay. Their prices are pretty reasonable, especially considering it includes a cover. I also considered toppers from sleepez.com, the same place I got my mattress a couple years ago. They have both blended and natural Talalay, as well as Dunlop toppers.

Good luck

Thanks, Chuck. But sleeponlatex.com is an amazing online company. Not only did they take back the soft topper three weeks after the trial period was up, but they sent me a 3" med. To try. I paid no shipping or return charges! There are very few stores or online companies that will take returns, no less give you your money back! This one does. So, I am willing to work with them until I find the right combination.
Unfortunately there is only one place where I live that even had latex. And I absolutely hate memory foam! And what I know for sure is that nobody really know how a mattress will be, lying on it for 5 minutes in a store…or even an hour.
But, thank you, anyway, for your input.
P.s. does Brooklyn bedding allow free returns and/or money back if you are not satisfied?

I’ve heard very good things about Sleeponlatex and I was considering buying a topper from them. I know they offer Dunlop latex only. I hope they have solved your problem. To answer your question, I believe both Brooklyn Bedding/mattresstopper and SleepEZ have similar return policies. Brooklyn Bedding has a 30 day money back guarantee and allows one free exchange in a 12 month period.

Just for the record Sleep On Latex has a similar return policy which specifies that “Only one item per customer can be returned or exchanged in a 12-month period.” Their complete policy is detailed here: https://sleeponlatex.com/pages/shipping-returns

Hi Rjb38.

I am happy that Sleep On Latex is working so closely with you to find the perfect combination for your needs. SOL uses indeed only Dunlop latex which tends to have a slightly firmer feel to it than Talalay of the same ILD. As with all our Trusted Members here I have no doubt that they will not hesitate to help you find the best combo and thickness/softness they have available that works for you. As you have experienced, It usually takes a bit of trial and error and a bit of time that the body needs to adjust.

Looking forward to any further updates.

Phoenix

Thank you Sweet Dreams for clarifying Sleep On Latex topper exchange policy. Much appreciated.