I’d like to say thank you for developing and maintaining this forum. The tips, links, and posts have been invaluable in my journey to finding the right mattress and foundation. I haven’t found the perfect combination yet, but without the information in this forum, I certainly would not have come as far as I have.
First, some particulars:
I am 5’2" and about 120-130 pounds. I sleep on my back and side every night.
My husband is 5’8" and about 160-170 pounds. He also sleeps on his back and side every night.
We know we want a king size, all latex bed. We want to be able to customize at least the top layer to suit our individual preferences. We prefer talalay for its feel at least in the top comfort layers.
I do a lot of tossing and turning. I am physically very sensitive. I have a lot of problems with pressure points. Since I’m more sensitive, we’re solving for me then we’ll dial in my husband’s side of the bed.
It’s easy for me to figure out comfort layers because of my pressure point issues, but much harder for me to figure out alignment.
Where we started: a firm BeautyRest Black. I was in pain every day all day. I had lower back pain and numbness and tingling in my right hip, leg, and foot. I woke up with my shoulders hunched forward because my shoulders don’t sink into the mattress. I tried adding a polyurethane topper (2 or 3 inches) and I tried a 3 inch wool topper. Nothing helped. Firm mattresses and innerspring mattresses are not for me.
What we tried and the result:
PLB: didn’t find anything. Closest for me was PLB World’s Best Bed: relieved pressure points (no problem there), but I feel like I sink in a little too much through my hips. I think I hammock just enough that my alignment will be off. I also felt like I bottomed out on the bed even though it’s super thick. I think this is because I could feel the transition from the softer layers to the firmer layers. Trued this in store on the PLB base.
OMI (Organicpedic) Duo - my husband and I thought this would be the ultimate solution since each side is customizable and there’s flexibility with the layering. Tried this in store on the OMI base. I tried the two softest configurations (from bottom up: 1) medium - soft - extra soft with sculpted layer up and 2. medium - extra soft - soft). Both configurations were too hard. I walked away with numbness on my sides and my shoulders hunched forward. I hurt for two days.
OMI Terra composed of OMI’s medium - firm - medium layers and OMI’s 3.5 inch removable topper. Tried this in store. Bed was on a wood bed frame that I think had a slatted base. I tried the bed with the solid side up on the topper and with the sculpted layer up. Both were too hard. I could feel my right side getting numb after about 15 minutes.
OMI Terra Plus - same configurations as above but the salesperson added a 2" PLB topper that’s very soft. I don’t recall which PLB topper exactly. This combination felt great. There was just enough lift under my lower back and I got the pressure point relief I need. When we substituted a 3" PLB topper, that topper was too thick. A few things trouble me here:
I don’t want to start with a bed configuration that’s uncomfortable out of the box and needs tinkering. I don’t think this makes sense. Do you agree?
Once I add the 2" PLB topper, I’m on 14" of latex. For someone my size, this seems a little extreme. Question is, if I take the Terra and PLB topper as a model, what layers am I really using? Can I take this as a model and deduce what I need? What layering would you suggest based on this configuration that I like?
Other questions:
I’ve seen mattresses with talalay latex layers labeled N1, N2 and N3. Do you know what N1, N2, and N3 translates into in terms of ILD?
I’ve slept on a mattress on a bunky board and the bunky board hurts me. I think bunky boards completely change the feel of a mattress, making the mattress significantly firmer. It feels like I bottom out and hit a hard, unforgiving flat surface like a concrete floor regardless of what mattress is on top. The mattress doesn’t seem to fill in the area in my lower back when I’m lying on my back, which is where I want some push upwards or support. I understand how a slatted foundation differs from a bunky board. Can you please explain, in terms of energy transfer and mattresses, what is happening on a slatted foundation v. a bunky board? Do slatted foundations have some give in them?
Thanks so much for your help.
Again, great website!
Unfortunately nobody else can feel what you feel and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to know which specific mattress would be best for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or “theory at a distance” (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here). The most reliable way to choose a mattress is based on your own careful and objective testing using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post.
If you aren’t confident that your careful testing would be a reliable indicator of your sleeping experience then the options you have after a purchase to make changes to the mattress (either by rearranging or changing layers or exchanging or returning the mattress itself) would likely become a much more important part of your personal value equation.
I would also keep in mind that it’s easier to soften up a mattress that is too firm by adding a topper than it is to firm up a mattress that is too soft unless you can remove the layers that are too soft and replace them with something firmer.
While it’s always preferable to buy a mattress or a mattress/topper combination that is a good match for you in the first place … a component mattress with a zip cover and loose layers has several advantages if your sleeping experience indicates that in spite of your “best efforts” you ended up choosing a mattress that isn’t an ideal match for you in terms of PPP. It would allow you to rearrange or exchange individual layers to fine tune either the support or pressure relief of the mattress without having to exchange the entire mattress. It would also allow you to replace individual layers if one of them softens or breaks down faster than the others (the top layers are usually the weakest link of any mattress) or if your needs or preferences change over time instead of having to replace the entire mattress. A topper that is part of a sleeping system would have a similar advantage in that it can be replaced or changed individually without necessarily having to replace the entire mattress.
There are many component latex mattresses available though and while the OMI (Organicpedic) is certainly a high quality choice … I would make some very careful value comparisons because there are other similar component mattresses that use the same or similar materials that are in much lower budget ranges.
There is more about the different ways that one mattress can “match” another one in post #9 here and there is more about the effect of thickness (which is one of many specs that will affect the feel and performance of a mattress) in post #14 here. All the layers of a mattress will have an effect on all the other layers and the mattress as a whole but in very general terms the layers that are closest to the sleeping surface will generally have a bigger effect on what you feel than the deeper layers. While you certainly wouldn’t “need” 14" of latex to keep you from feeling like the mattress was bottoming out or to find a mattress that was suitable for you … you may still prefer it to a similar mattress that used less latex. This would depend on the specifics of each mattress and on how sensitive you were to the effect of the deeper layers on the mattress as a whole.
Some people would notice a significant difference and some would notice little difference at all if the top 6" - 9" of two sleeping systems used exactly the same layers in the same thickness and firmness level and the cover and quilting was the same as well if the only difference between them was that one of them used additional very firm layers on the bottom. One of the difficulties with trying to “match” OMI layers is that the topper is “sculpted” so it would feel different and softer than a layer that was the same type of latex and had the same thickness and firmness but didn’t have the surface modifications. The base mattress in the Terra is also two sided so there would be a softer layer on the bottom that would have a bigger effect on the sleeping system as a whole than if the bottom layer was much firmer.
There are some comments about the specs of the Terra and a link to the ILD range for each of the “N” ratings in post #2 here.
The problem here would have been with the mattress not the bunkie board. An ideal support surface under an all latex mattress (or under any all foam mattress) would have little to no give at all and would be similar to the floor. The reason for slats is not so that you have some flex in the support surface (it shouldn’t have enough to make any difference compared to a floor) but to provide airflow under the mattress. If you can feel a bunkie board under a mattress (or if you could feel the firmness of a floor under a mattress) then the mattress probably wouldn’t be a suitable choice for you unless it was much thinner (say about 6" or so) and was designed to be used with a flexing support system underneath it as an “active” part of a sleeping system and you had tested the combination in person and confirmed that it was a good match for you in terms of PPP.
Hi Phoenix. Thanks so much for your quick reply which is very helpful.
I’ve put a high premium on the return/layer exchange policy as you suggest.
Similarly, I will lean toward a component mattress. I do seem to have the princess and the pea thing going on, so being able to make exchanges or adjustments to layers over time is a good idea.
Thanks for the info. on slat foundations. It’s very helpful.
Yesterday, I tried a four layer component mattress at a local retailer - the Natural Mattress Store. I tried their Eco-Cloud Enlightenment. Here’s the composition from bottom up:
3" extra firm Dunlop
3" N3 medium natural talalay (ILD 25-29)
3" N2 soft natural talalay (ILD 20-24)
3" N1 extra soft talalay (salesperson said the ILD on this is under 20)
The Natural Mattress Store uses wool, zip covers to encase the latex layers.
I think the Enlightenment as configured above is pretty close for me. It may be just on the edge of being too firm in feel for adequate pressure relief for me, but the postural alignment seems ok. I may like a little extra softness.
To soften the mattress as constructed, in the store I tried adding a 2" N2 soft natural talalay topper on top. This actually felt fantastic - soft and plush and great pressure point relief. But, for alignment purposes, I thought the cradle created was too deep.
Questions:
If the Enlightenment is close but not quite soft enough, where would you start adjusting layers? For example, I instinctively think if I swapped the bottom extra firm Dunlop for a firm talalay I’d get a little more of the softness and springiness I’m looking for in the feel without affecting postural alignment. The salesperson also suggested I could change out the medium talalay for soft talalay so I had extra firm Dunlop → N2 → N2 → N1.
Based on what I feel about the Enlightenment, what specific configurations would you suggest trying to get a little more spring and softness to the feel (i.e., better pressure point relief) while not affecting the postural support?
I can’t test out modifications before ordering from the Natural Mattress Store since they don’t have loose pieces of latex. They use latex from LI. Is there a dealer you’d suggest where I can try out equivalent but slightly different configurations? I’m in the San Francisco/Bay Area.
[quote]I think the Enlightenment as configured above is pretty close for me. It may be just on the edge of being too firm in feel for adequate pressure relief for me, but the postural alignment seems ok. I may like a little extra softness.
To soften the mattress as constructed, in the store I tried adding a 2" N2 soft natural talalay topper on top. This actually felt fantastic - soft and plush and great pressure point relief. But, for alignment purposes, I thought the cradle created was too deep.[/quote]
You are into some very subjective territory here about perceptions of softness because with the firmer top layer some people that are more sensitive to the firmness of the top layer would feel that the mattress felt firmer with the topper and with the additional thickness (thicker mattresses can feel softer) some people like yourself would feel that the mattress felt softer.
I would keep in mind that the depth of the cradle would be more of a preference choice (some people like the feel of sinking into a mattress more deeply) but alignment has more to do with how evenly you sink in rather than how deeply you sink in. Post #6 here can help you visualize what good alignment “looks like”.
With the thickness and softness of the comort layers the way you tested it you would already be in a softness range that could have some alignment risk so if you were to soften it further yet the risk would increase. This doesn’t mean that you would be out of alignment … only that I would be very cautious with a mattress that was as soft as you are considering. Deeper layers would have less effect on what you feel when you lie on the mattress (they can have a bigger effect on alignment and what you feel when you wake up in the morning) so I would be very cautious about using 3 layers of softer Talalay in addition to a softer Talalay topper. This would be a softer mattress than most people would do best with.
Every change you make will have some effect on both pressure relief and on support/alignment because all the layers in a mattress will have some effect on every other layer and the feel and performance of the mattress overall. In many cases the effects of making smaller changes in the bottom layer (such as changing from firm Dunlop to firm Talalay) would be too small for some people to feel at all but since you appear to be more sensitive then it’s very possible that you would feel it and it would provide a little more “spring” to the mattress. Changing any layer to a softer version would make the mattress softer but the effects of doing this with deeper layers will be more subtle than using softer layers that were closer to the sleeping surface. I think that changing the bottom layer to Talalay would probably be the “safest” of the changes you could make because some of the others would be more risky and I would sleep on the mattress first to see how suitable it is in “real life” before making any softer changes and then you can exchange a layer to make it softer if your experience indicates that you are still well inside the softness range that would be suitable for you.
The better options and possibilities I’m aware of in the San Francisco area are listed in post #2 here. There are too may unknowns and variables and subjective perceptions involved to be able to predict which mattresses would feel “equivalent” to you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) so you would need to rely on your own testing to decide this but since it’s clear that you do prefer very soft mattresses that are in a more “risky” range I would tend to focus on mattresses that have softer layers in the top 6" or so but I would be very cautious about using softer layers deeper than that.