I had a nest Alexander Signature Hybrid medium for about 4 years and have never slept well on it. I’m primarily a back sleeper, but occasionally sleep on my side. I wake up up with lower back pain every morning even with a pillow under my legs. I’m 6’2" and 165lbs.
About a year ago, I moved and had to get the mattress replaced via warranty because the foam moved around and I couldn’t fix the issue. They sent me a new version of this mattress and I decided to go with luxury firm, thinking that would help. I still have the same problem.
Would it be worth it to try and keep the coils and replace the top foam with a layer or 2 of latex? Or would it be better to buy a completely different mattress or even try to diy one myself?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I haven’t slept well in quite a while.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing lumbar pain on your Alexander Signature (now renamed the Sparrow Signature Hybrid). Ongoing lower back pain is quite frustrating and is an indicator of any number of things, most often improper spinal alignment from incorrect mattress support.
In other words, lower back discomfort can be caused by a mattresses that are either “too firm” or “too soft” on the surface (common causes of pain when sleeping upon a mattress are listed in post #2 here ). If the mattress is too soft on top or not supportive enough, it could allow you to sink in too deeply and allow for excessive sideways bending of our lumbar/thoracic region. If the mattress is too firm, it may not allow your hips to sink in quite enough and this could leave less support for your lumbar region, which can then allow an excessive lateral bend in this area.
Because you went from medium to firm and are still experiencing pain, my guess is that perhaps you’re needing a softer foam as opposed to a firm foam. Would you be able to get your hands on a soft 2" topper that you could use to test whether or not this helps alleviate you lower back pain?
Thanks for your input. I had a 2" medium topper I was using, but it was the same issue. That was before I had done research about mattresses and sleeping.
I’m not sure why I thought the mattress was too soft originally. I think it was probably due to all the info online about firm mattresses being better. After doing a bit of research, I seem to have a new perspective when I lay on my mattress. It’s definitely too firm, as I feel like my whole body just sits on top without really sinking in.
I spoke with nest support and I’ve decided to go with a 3" talalay soft latex topper that I’ll replace the firm top layer with. My thinking is that if this doesn’t work, I’ll give the diy latex a go and use the topper for that. I’ve slept poorly for a few years now and I’m determined to find a solution even it costs me some money.
It’s still surprising to me how much of a science it is when it comes to figuring out a pain point on a mattress. Some nights, my bed feels like the most comfortable bed in the world, and other nights I’m wondering why my back hurts and if my knee pain is mattress related.
I am hopeful the 3" soft topper will help resolve your back pain. If not, and you decide to go for the DIY, we’re certainly here to help you through it!
After sleeping with the 3" topper, it feels slightly better. My lower back doesn’t hurt like it did before. Although now I’m getting pain in more of my mid back.
I did some digging into the make up of the mattress and realized that it’s zoned. I wonder if the zoning is the reason I can’t find the right balance? I’d like to reuse the coils, but if zoning is the issue, I’m willing the scrap everything.
I’ve been thinking about a couple diy configurations.
I’m just debating on whether I want to go full latex or hybrid. Would I need a transition layer of latex in between the coils and talalay? Would these 2 options be similar in softness or would one feel firmer than the other? I forgot to mention my wife likes super soft beds. She’s a side sleeper 5’3" 120lbs. I’m trying to consider her needs as well.
After doing a bit more digging, I don’t think it is actually zoned aside from the edges. Would zoning be helpful for a back sleeper at my height (6’2") and my wife, a side sleeper(5’3")? Or would it probably not work for both?
The reason for zoning is because of the difference in weight, thickness/thinness, and surface area of three main areas of the body that are the most difficult to accommodate.
The first of these is the hip/pelvic area which carries the greatest amount of weight and has the greatest density, no matter what type of body you have, and often has a wider profile (especially in women). The second is the waist/lumbar area which is often lighter and thinner and has a lower density. The third is the shoulder/chest area. The shoulders are narrower and have less surface area (on the side) and will sink in more easily until they reach the torso which is often wider than the hips but lighter and lower density. Dealing with these 3 areas in all the different sleeping positions and differences in body profiles and the difficulties associated with balancing them in terms of pressure relief and alignment is the reason that zoning is sometimes used in more difficult or extreme body weights or profiles.
It’s possible you could potentially see some benefit from a two zone mattress.
If you go the DIY route, you can actually do a split configuration to give both you and your wife the best, most supportive, most comfortable sleep possible.
This will come down to preference, mostly. Do you like the traditional springiness/bounce on a mattress? Then a hybrid is the right direction. Do you prefer motion isolation? All foam would be a good choice in that regard.
It would be recommended, yes. This way you don’t sink into the coils.
People say that coils are generally more firm, but I believe the base of the bed also has a lot to do with how firm the mattress feels.
I returned the 3" Queen Talalay soft for split 3" Talalay soft and split 3" Dunlop medium. My wife loves the soft, so I didn’t want to mess with her side. At least she’s much happier with our bed now. After 2 nights I feel the tension on my lower back again as I did previously. I’m going to adjust my pillow and see if that can help any.
I’m wondering if adding a 1" or 2" latex soft topper would be of any help. I feel like the rest of my body likes the slightly firmer feel, but my lower back just doesn’t get enough support. Or maybe adding small pillow under my lower back would help? I’ve tried adding rolled up towels before, but it seems to cause pressure on my middle back. Are there any recommended lumbar pillows?
The other alternative would be to scrap the coils and make an all latex bed, but I’m not convinced that would solve my problems. It feels like my upper and lower body has different needs.
It’s basically appears to be several layers of memory/poly foam. So that’s why it would feel better on your upper back when switching to medium dunlop (much firmer, less travel) on the comfort layer but for the same reason this is also why it hurts your lower back (dunlop allows less travel than talalay which can be a problem when the bum doesn’t travel into the mattress enough so the lower back is supported). While you could try swapping the dunlop medium for a talalay medium or perhaps even zone the layer with a soft/medium talalay from the waist down. I’m not totally sure this would fix your issue since your really creating a Band-Aid to fix the mattress itself (however it’s worth trying because it would be the simplest fix and your wife is already happy with her side). Not to create a DIY project out of this but a final option is you could reuse the insides (foams/coils) and get a new cover that would allow you to make adjustments to both your side and your wife’s separately. This is the most custom option and it can be expensive while also taking a while to perfect but it’s also the most likely to give you exactly what you’re looking for. Some things to think about anyway.
I guess I should have gone with the Talalay medium instead of Dunlop. I can’t exchange the latex again as Latex Mattress Factory only allows for one exchange. I am considering buying The Talalay medium and trying that out. I feel like I’m slowly making my way to a DIY latex mattress anyway…
The other considering would be to get a 2" talalay soft topper. I don’t think my wife would mind going softer anyway. Only issue with that, is I’m not sure what I would do with it if it didn’t work out.
If I wanted to zone my side, how difficult is it to cut latex?
The 3" medium talalay is likely going to work better than just adding another 2" soft topper to everything you already have. If you wanted to give yourself the best chance of solving it I would get both a 3" medium (28 ILD) and a 3" firm (32 ILD) then also get the 2" soft (19 ILD) talalay to put on top. Doing it this way you can simply reuse those layers again in a full DIY latex mattress build for you and your wife if this fix doesn’t work. Also you can then test if zoning with 28/32 ILD creates more relief in your lower back and the upper comfort layer will also help with giving you more travel where you need it.
Zoning: Don’t cut any latex sheets until you’ve decided it works for you (always test them in place first prior to cutting so you know it feels good and where the cut lines should be for any zoning). Once you’ve decided on zoning then you can cut the latex with an electric carving knife (try to keep your cuts as straight/perpendicular as possible so the edges fit together well). You may find just the talalay medium or firm layer along with the softer comfort makes a big enough difference it solves your issue (remember simple designs are always better) but at least you have options if it doesn’t work perfectly the first time.
I’m trying to remedy the situation without spending too much money up front. I was thinking I could buy the 3" medium Talalay for my side and if that doesn’t work, I could do a 3" firm/3" med/3"soft latex build since I would already have 2 split 3" med and 1 split 3" tal soft. Are you suggesting the 3"firm/3"med/2"soft would be a better way to go for a diy build?
One other note is that I sleep on my side about 20% (probably because my back hurts). So I guess I’ll need a bit more softness for that as well.
The most basic design for a DIY latex mattress is the all 3" layer S/M/F setup. It’s good for most people but may not be ideal since the comfort layer is 3" and you only get 6" of support layers below. Of course everything works together in tandem but it’s easier to conceptualize it this way. Now another design is to use a 2" comfort layer then add 3" support layers to better tailor your comfort and support as needed. Again this allows a bit more adjustment than the simpler design and as such it’s likely to work better for a wider range of folks since you have more adjustment.
Better: (your side only, need your wife’s height/weight to do her side)
2" Talalay 19 ILD
3" Talalay 28 or 32 ILD (back sleeping use the firmer option, side softer)
3" Talalay 32 or 36 ILD (back sleeping use the firmer option, side softer)
3" Talalay 36 or 44 ILD (back sleeping use the firmer option, side softer)
I like the idea of customization. Would you just adjust the bottom 3 layers and leave the 2" on top? Would it be okay to get split layers for every layer or just for the top layers?
I’m trying to slowly ease myself into this type of build, so maybe I’ll do it step by step. Trying to minimize cost if possible.
My wife is mostly a side sleeper, but sleeps in all positions. She’s 5’3" and about 120lbs.
Yes, top comfort layer is the same for both sides (not split) then you only adjust the bottom layers (split).
This is what I’d suggest given your preferences and BMIs (there may be some further adjustment needed if either have curvy or bony body types)
Your side:
2" Talalay 19 ILD (no split)
3" Talalay 28 or 32 ILD (back sleeping use the firmer option, side softer)
3" Talalay 32 or 36 ILD (back sleeping use the firmer option, side softer)
3" Talalay 36 or 44 ILD (back sleeping use the firmer option, side softer)
Her side:
2" Talalay 19 ILD (no split, same as your side above)
3" Talalay 22 ILD
3" Talalay 28 ILD
3" Talalay 32 ILD
I haven’t really seen some of those ILD on the different latex websites. Usually it’s 19, 28, 38 ILD or a range of 15-19, 20-24, 25-29, 30-34 ILD. I haven’t seen a 44 ILD either. Do I just have to call them and request it?
I noticed you’re suggesting all Talalay, but I see a lot of builds recommend dunlop for support. Is it more of a feel preference or is there a some other thing I’m not aware of?
Also, Would having 3 layers of 2" soft/ 3" med/ 3" firm work or is that just not enough support?
All latex foam is spec’d in ranges for the ILD. If you see a single number then they have either taken the average or sometimes they spec the high/low number from the range (depending on what their marketing folks wanted). Also keep in mind there are really only 2 talalay manufacturers (really just one since Radium is having trouble getting product over from Europe) while there are lots more dunlop manufacturers. Also latex foams have both natural and blended types to chose from and both will also create different firmness ranges. So if you see a firmness range of 20-24 ILD then assume the rating will be roughly a 22 ILD or if you see 30-34 ILD then assume that’s a 32 ILD. The 44 ILD is super firm and it’s definitely special order (not commonly stocked) so it will not usually be on anyone’s website.
Talalay is the most conforming of the latex foams while dunlop is very firm and provides great support. You were complaining about your lower back which to me is likely due to a lack of travel in the bum area so talalay will work best there. Your wife is also a side sleeper so that’s another area where talalay really excels over dunlop. Feel free to experiment with dunlop as well since you’re the only one that can tell what is the most comfortable.
You might get away with that height mattress but I suspect that in the end you’ll find you just don’t have enough travel to feel comfortable and adding that last support layer will give you the missing piece. You can always just order the comfort and top 2 support layers first and then order the additional layers after as needed. I would definitely get split layers because then if you don’t get things right on the first go you can easily substitute for different layers without affecting both sides of the bed at once.
Just a point regarding availability of very firm latex, Sleep EZ offers 44ILD Dunlop latex as Extra Firm and Sleep On Latex offers 46ILD Dunlop in their Firm classification. Both are regularly stocked not requiring a special order. I have layers of both and they’re great quality, excelling as support layers for heavier sleepers.
[quote=“Sweet Dreams post=90845”]Just a point regarding availability of very firm latex, Sleep EZ offers 44ILD Dunlop latex as Extra Firm and Sleep On Latex offers 46ILD Dunlop in their Firm classification. Both are regularly stocked not requiring a special order. I have layers of both and they’re great quality, excelling as support layers for heavier sleepers.
My thinking is that I could go firmer by moving the firmer layers up. If I go with the firmer ILD’s, it feels like I can’t make it softer if it’s too firm. Is right idea or am I missing anything?
