New Latex Mattress = New Lower Back Pain

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
5

So I’m slowly working through the information you’ve pointed me to. Do you have a copy of the lab test results on the essentia foam? The link to it in the other posts are broken.

Also, we tried adding some more foam layers that we had around (don’t ask, we’re recovering pack rats…), for a total of five inches. We’re now sleeping comfortably, though I think it may be just a little too soft. But at least I feel like I’m heading in the right direction.

I contacted Essentia by email, and one thing they said is that the mattress starts out hard because of the way it’s compressed for shipping, but it softens up with used, and can take up to a month to reach its full softness. This seems a little odd, though it does explain why their return policy requires you to keep the mattress for thirty days before you can return it.

6

Hi shaxpere,

The links in post #63 here are working.

There will be a break in and adjustment period for any new mattress or sleeping system as the foam layers lose any of their initial “false firmness” and soften a little and the cover stretches and loses any initial stiffness and your body gets used to a sleeping surface that is different from what it is used to (see post #3 here). This would typically be a few weeks but it can be shorter or longer depending on the specifics of the person and the mattress.

Phoenix

7

I had the same problem with my latex at first. I did a knee walk slowly all over and it did take a few weeks and now I love it. Still contemplating a softer topper but it is coming up on a year I did the beautiful latex from pure latex bliss.

8

Hi delwind,

Thanks for the update … and it’s great to hear that you love your mattress almost a year after your original feedback here :).

Phoenix

9

I haven’t had much time to look into mattresses, but since reading the poor view of Essentia on this forum, I’ve done a little digging. Their website is a marketer’s dream, and is a mire of obsfucation and somewhat misleading statements. For example, they talk about their organic Dunlop latex, and the importance of organic mattresses, but they never actually say that their “natural latex memory foam” or the mattress as whole is organic! Since I was under the impression I was buying organic, I’m disappointed, to say the least. That said, I’m still trying to wrap my head around a company claiming to make a latex based memory foam that, based on the test results Phoenix showed me, appears to have no latex in it at all! So either they are flat out lying, the test results are incorrect, or somewhere in-between. For example maybe they are making a fairly standard memory foam, but including enough latex to say it has latex, but not enough to be picked up in the lab. I don’t know.

In my quest for knowledge, I asked Essentia directly via email about the ingredients in the memory foam, and they pointed me to this page on their website:

So, let’s assume for the moment that this is accurate. Can those of you who know more about how foams are made translate this long list of chemicals for me? Does it look complete?

Also, for those of you who are interested, I took a closer look at the law tags for my mattress and pillows. I can provide pics if anyone cares to see them. Here’s what they say:

Classic 8 Mattress:
Shell - 100% Organic Cotton
Liner - 100% Kevlar Knit
Filler - Organic Cotton, Natural Latex Memory Foam

Comfort Pillow:
Shell - 100% Organic Fabric
Liner - 100% Organic Cotton
Filler - Natural Latex Memory Foam

10

Hi shaxpere,

That’s because their latex and their mattress isn’t certified organic. They do have a Greenguard certification that tests their mattresses for harmful VOC’s so I would consider their mattresses to be “safe enough” but it’s also true that all of the latex you are likely to encounter (either Dunlop or Talalay that is made with either natural or synthetic rubber or a blend of both) will have a reliable safety certification such as Oeko-Tex, Eco-Institut, or Greenguard Gold and based on actual testing I would consider any type or blend of latex to be a very “safe” material in terms of harmful substances and VOC’s.

There is also more information about the different levels of organic certifications in post #2 here and some of the benefits of an organic certification in post #3 here and there is more about the different types of organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here that can help you decide whether an organic certification is important to you or whether a “safety” certification is enough.

All latex foam (including 100% natural Dunlop and Talalay and organic latex) uses a small amount of chemicals to manufacture the latex (see post #18 here) but the manufacturers don’t release the specifics of their compounding formula which is a closely guarded secret.

While I’m not a chemical engineer so I can’t speak to all the differences in their chemical formulations … the two main “chemical” differences between Talalay and Dunlop is that Talalay latex uses carbon dioxide gas as a gelling agent while Dunlop latex uses sodium fluorosilicate. Natural Dunlop latex is also often manufactured closer to the latex plantations so in many cases it needs less ammonia or other stabilizing agents to stabilize the latex and prevent it from coagulating or putrefying before it’s used while Talalay is made in Holland (Radium) or in the USA (Talalay Global) so the liquid field latex they use may contain higher levels of ammonia or other chemicals to stabilize it before it’s used to manufacture the latex. Most of the ammonia is removed during the foaming process either way.

You can also see some comments about the chemicals that they have listed in post #60 here.

It would be great to attach a picture of your law tag to your post. You can also see some comments about their law tags (and a picture of a law tag for the Opus mattress) in posts #21 - #25 here. Their law tags are ambiguous because even if you give them the benefit of the doubt the natural latex in their mattresses is a different material from what they are calling “natural latex memory foam” and they should probably be listed as separate ingredients. The first two words may also be referring to the latex and the last two words may be referring to the memory foam so it’s possible that they are written to only “look like” a single ingredient when in fact they aren’t.

Phoenix

11

Here are the tags on the mattress, which is a Classic 8:

And here is the tag on the Comfort Pillow:

12

Hi shaxpere,

Thanks for posting the pictures … I appreciate it.

The law labels you posted also don’t appear to comply with US uniform law label regulations either partly because they are listing a material that isn’t approved for use on a law label and partly because they don’t list the percentage of the filling material by weight

Phoenix

13

Yeah, I saw the discussion about the Opus Energie law tag in another thread. I had wondered about that when I first saw them. Both the mattress and pillow are purportedly a combination of Dunlop latex and memory foam.

14

Hi shaxpere,

Your law tags appear to be describing the Baby Jeanius IQ crib mattress which uses .5" of their so called “natural latex memory foam” with a compressed layer of organic cotton underneath it rather than the Classic 8 which uses 2" of the so called “natural latex memory foam” and a 6" zoned natural Dunlop latex support core underneath it. The first picture also says “this mattress is intended to be used without a foundation and only with the Leander crib”.

Very odd!

Phoenix

15

Huh, I was focused on the materials and didn’t even notice that. I wondered why cotton was listed in the filler. Very strange. Also, I just got an email from Essentia HQ answering direct questions about the percentage of latex in the memory foam, and whether they consider it organic:

16

Hi shaxpere,

If their latex core is GOLS certified organic then they should be able to show you the GOLS certification.

From their site:

Assuming that they are only referring to Talalay latex here (because GIOLS certified Dunlop latex certainly esxists) … while it’s true that there currently isn’t any organic certified Talalay latex there is certainly 100% natural Talalay that would meet the 95% natural rubber criteria that would be required for an organic certification if they were using USDA organic certified field latex to make it. The primary reason that Talalay manufacturers don’t produce GOLS certified Talalay latex isn’t because they couldn’t but because of supply issues and transportation issues. Unlike many Dunlop manufacturers, Talalay latex isn’t manufactured close to the plantations that produce the latex (the two manufacturers that make it are in Holland and the USA) and any organic raw field latex and any organic finished latex cores can’t be be included on the same shipment or made in the same factory as other types or blends of latex because of “cross contamination” which would be impractical.

Phoenix

17

Hello,

I found this website after I had already purchased a myessentia mattress back in 2012. I had purchased their softest model first and returned it because there was no support at all. The classic 8 was ok at first but I feel again that there isn’t any support. I also experienced lower back and hip pain. I like the softness of the top layer because I need pressure relief but am tired of the memory foam feel. I purchased a loom and leaf relaxed firm and loved it at first but have returned it because some days it would get so soft my hips would dip too far in (and mind you I only weigh 130 and am 5ft4) and I would feel a hard layer that would cause a lot of pressure in my hip. Now I’m thinking, after reading virtually all the content on this website (I just thought of this site again recently and that’s what helped me make the decision to return the loom and leaf, because it does indeed have a weak link) could I do something to the myessentia mattress to salvage it? The latex side of it is said by the company to be a medium firm (I contacted them but they won’t disclose the ILD nor the density of the base 6" of latex they used in 2012 to make it) so what could I add to this mattress to make it more supportive? Mind you it’s not supportive but also doesn’t provide enough pressure relief. I go numb very easily and need pressure relief cause of severe nerve pains. Would a wool topper and a firmer layer of latex underneath the myessentia do the trick? If so, how many inches of wool on top and how many layers of wool is needed? (also is cuddlewe a good brand for wool toppers cause I find them to be more affordable and they offer returns on a used topper). Would a latex/wool combo topper be better? Would plain latex work to relieve the pressure and would a firmer layer on the bottom help to provide more support? How thick would that bottom layer need to be? Again, I don’t want that sinking in feeling of memory foam anymore it keeps me up at night but I love the pressure relieving properties of memory foam because it really does do the best job for me and my tendencies to go numb often throughout various parts of my body. Any suggestions or information would be so greatly appreciated!!! This mattress coat so much money I’d love to know if and how I can salvage it to sleep on it! By the way it has held up having been moved about the house a million times and slept on for 8 years it’s the same today as it was a few months after we got it so I think the latex used is good and sturdy and not finicky. Thanks for your input and time!

18

Hey alikigia,

Welcome to the TMU Forum :slight_smile: ! Good to hear you are finding the site helpful in your comfort layer research and thanks for your question.

Comfort layers consist of the upper few inches of a mattress and are primarily responsible for pressure relief, one of the main functions of all mattresses. The comfort layers also include any quilting layers used in the top most part of a mattress as they act together to give a mattress its pressure relieving qualities. This topic is discussed in detail in “Mattress comfort layers - Overview”, you may find the info on different materials and different constructions of interest.

There are different qualities or grades of memory foam and 5.0 lbs per cubic foot and higher is considered to be the highest quality, 4.0 - 4.9 is mid range, and 3.0 - 3.9 is lower quality (generally used for toppers or lower budget mattresses). Essentia is one of the only companies in North America that pours their own foams. Their web site describes their memory foam as “a natural memory foam made using hevea milk, the sap from a rubber tree, combined with other ingredients.” While we can’t be sure of the 2012 component formulation, the current Classic 8 mattress features 2" of their natural memory foam over a 6" “natural Hevea Latex Support Foam”, with the 2" memory foam comfort layer at 6.25 lbs per cubic feet, placing it in a high-grade quality construction. Higher grades are more durable and will keep their qualities for longer than lower grades but will not generally last as long as innersprings, latex foam, or natural fibers. Strangely enough, higher density memory foam can feel softer as it “melts” or softens with body heat than lower density memory foams which are often either too soft (“melt” too easily) or too firm (like a light styrofoam) depending on how they are made.

What is your experience with wool? As a natural fiber, it has a unique “feel” and properties; you may find it sleeps “warmer” or “cooler”, changing the sleep environment you currently have. You could try adding a wool topper, or any variety construction of toppers, keeping in mind that using a topper to correct comfort problems with an older bed is a short-term fix, IMO. Adding a layer of latex underneath the mattress would not solve the comfort layer problem you’re having and would possibly void the mattress warranty, the site is quite specific about the base set up of their products. When you reached out to myessentia, did they offer any thoughts or customer service support?

Thanks,
Sensei

19

Thank you so much for the thorough response, it is very helpful! You hit the nail on the head when you described that the higher the pounds of density the more ‘melt’ like feeling it has. I just discovered that today that this is what is bothering me so much about the comfort layer on the classic eight it’s got too much of the ‘melt’ for me and it doesn’t provide pressure relief because you feel that latex underneath quickly. It feels really good at first but within 30 minutes I start to get numbing sensations and I can’t reposition my hips in any way not to feel the numbness. So this really helped me figure out what the issue is with this mattress. Thanks so much!! I agree that the materials are high-quality although today I took the cover off to wash it and chunks of the latex around the edges looked like they were bitten off in various places at the edge of the mattress in the thin encasement that they have underneath the cover. Very strange. We moved a couple of times so maybe the way it was handled did that to the mattress, who knows. It may have been pulled on too much and pieces came off. Anyhow the company did finally say that the ILD of the Dunlop 6" base is 22. When I looked this up it says this is on the soft to mid support, although Dunlop is still more dense than Talalay so I’m not sure if I could really go by this ILD to tell me anything about it’s support. Would you say this ILD on this model is supportive enough for a 5ft3 130lb person? I think I just needed a firmer latex base with a four or 5 pound memory foam on top. Memory foam is the only thing I have experience with unfortunately. I do not have any experience with wool as a comfort layer. I wish there was a show room near me that I could try. If you know of any please let me know I’m in NYC. Like I mentioned in the previous post, cuddle we is the only company I found that will allow you to try it for 30 days and you can return it provided its stain free and no signs of wear and you pay for the shipping but I’m not sure if their topper is even a quality that I should get. They said it has three layers of wool batting they did not disclose if it’s pre-compressed but they did say that it starts off at 3 inches and will compress down to two. I see here the companies you all recommend have anywhere from 3-8 layers or pre-compressed batting. You mentioned in your response some thing that I would love some clarification on. You wrote that higher grades are more durable but will not last as long as latex foams inner springs or other natural fibers. Are you referring to higher grades of memory foam don’t last as long as latex comfort layers innersprings and other natural fibers? What type of latex foam would you recommend then that would feel more like four or 5 pound density memory foam? I also didn’t understand why you put innersprings in that sentence are you saying that inner springs on the bottom would just be more supportive than a latex core I think that’s what you’re trying to say I just wanted to clarify. So moving forward in your opinion do you think a hybrid mattress is the way to go with a wool layer on top of the latex comfort layer? I honestly never wanna go mattress shopping ever again after all of this but this website is extremely helpful and I’ve learned a lot I just want to get a good one now as I’m in my 40s and I don’t have time or energy to spend it on going crazy over a mattress and finding the best one or fighting with my existing one haha. Thank you so much for your thoughtful and thorough response I do greatly appreciate it it feels so good to know that there are people out there that are so knowledgeable and are so willing to disclose this valuable information thank you!!!

20

Hey alikigia,

Thanks so much for your kind words on The Mattress Underground and for your question.

Yes; Latex is available in a wide range of firmness levels, typically from 14 (super soft) to 44 ILD (super firm), and in different varieties (usually Dunlop or Talalay) and in natural or blended versions (as well as a less desirable completely synthetic version) which makes it possible to choose a support or comfort layer that is suitable for any set of sleeping conditions, body profile, weight distribution, and sleeping style, and using any layering method of mattress construction.

In the NYC area, you have many options for testing mattresses featuring natural materials, wool in particular in their comfort layers, as well as asking questions regarding your comfort preferences. You could test in department stores such as Macy’s or Bloomingdale’s. Mattress Firm is easily available, as are furniture stores. There are also several luxury mattress stores specializing in all natural materials and handmade constructions, such as Duxiana, Hästens and Savoir, not exactly everyday mattresses but perhaps interesting for comparing the feel of wool.

To clarify: I was speaking in terms of memory foam’s overall longevity as a component in mattress layers. In the case of your myessentia (to be clear, I have no experience with this manufacturer and am relying on specs from their web site), memory foam is not mentioned in the support layer, only in the comfort layer. While their 2" memory foam comfort layer is listed at 6.25 lbs per cubic feet/ a “high” grade quality, generally speaking memory foam is one of the lesser durable of other comfort layering materials in the long term. You can read more in this article, Five steps to your perfect mattress- Durability on a comparison of different types of mattress materials’ comfort and support properties.

That is a question that we will let our trusted members weigh in on, perhaps consumer subscribers too would have an opinion… :wink: . Feel free to share more updates on your research.

Cheers,
Sensei

21

Hi again!

Thanks again for your response. So because if the outbreak the planet is experiencing, I wasn’t able to even go out to try wool toppers so I searched again online and found that avocado green makes a new alpaca and wool topper. They say it’s 3" but I just received it and it’s really more like 1 inch. Any thoughts about this topper in terms of its durability since alpaca is not a material I have seen in the toppers from the companies recommended on this site. I do have to say I like the feel of it over the classic 8 Essentia and it did in fact make it a bit firmer in the sense that it’s more of a stable sleep surface in comparison to the memory foam feel the Essentia has. So I am wondering now if I should return it since they offer a full refund and go for one of the manufacturers from your site here as they offer discounts on replacing the toppers since now I know I like the feel of wool. Of course I wonder if the alpaca feels any different to just wool . If you have any advice or information please share! Avocado green could not tell me if the wool is pre compressed the people I chatted with online didn’t know what I meant. All I know is it’s 24lb for the king topper I bought. One more question…would a 6 inch wool topper be significantly harder than say a 3 inch as avocado claims this is. I feel that if this topper were any harder it couldn’t be ideal for my mattress. Thanks! Just wondering if you would know about plushness and thickness relationship If there is any. Thanks again!

22

Hey alikigia,

Sorry for the delayed response, things have been crazy everywhere as you mentioned, thanks for your patience.

[quote]“They say it’s 3” but I just received it and it’s really more like 1 inch."
[/quote]

AG’s Alpaca/Wool MattressTopper is listed as being 3" in thickness (2" of Alpaca wool in between 0.5" layers of wool) My guess is that it has been compressed for shipping which would require some fluffing up and allowing it to decompress before use.

Alpaca is more durable and it has a much higher tensile strength than wool does. It is the second only to silk and some of the phloem fibers such as hemp, linen, flax, ramie.

[quote]I do have to say I like the feel of it over the classic 8 Essentia and it did in fact make it a bit firmer in the sense that it’s more of a stable sleep surface in comparison to the memory foam feel the Essentia has.
[/quote]

I agree with your initial assessment of your new Alpaca topper as it has many superior qualities over a memory foam comfort surface. Both materials used in your topper are high-performing in terms of feel, temperature regulation, moisture wicking and as you have noticed comfort and “stability” vs the “memory foam” feel. When talking about memory foam … words like “stability” or “supportiveness” really mean degrees of softness. Memory foam is a pressure relieving comfort material not a support material. The support layers underneath the memory foam are the supportive part of the mattress. It responds very slowly to new and changing positions and some have described it as a little like “sleeping in sand”. Also it is difficult to control how far you sink into a memory foam layer as it may soften over the course of the night and what started out as correct spinal alignment could turn into a “hammock” position and a backache by morning.

I would hesitate to advice one way or another. This is truly a personal preference and you would need to run it by your Mattress buying personal value equation that are most important to you. This topper is of very good quality, durable, and performs well over time. Once you found a product that works well for you, I would certainly not encourage to return it for the benefit of a discount. From the ethical point of view also I’d bear in mind that many companies cannot resell used products such as this.

[quote]Avocado green could not tell me if the wool is pre compressed the people I chatted with online didn’t know what I meant. All I know is it’s 24lb for the king topper I bought
[/quote]

I’d contact Avocado directly by email as you can get more details in an email.

Thicker comfort layers are usually recommended for higher BMI individuals. The difference between a 3" and a 6" comfort layer can be quite dramatic and also depends on a person’s weight, shape, and sleeping positions. Side sleepers will notice it more (they are more likely to go “through” a thinner comfort layer) and feel more of the properties of the layers below it. The thinner a layer is … the more you will feel the properties of the layers below it.

[quote]Just wondering if you would know about plushness and thickness relationship If there is any.
[/quote]

The thickness of a mattress is much less important than the specifics of what is inside the mattress and which specific design is the best match for you in terms of PPP. There is more in post #14 here about the potential benefits of thicker individual layers or the mattress itself. 8" - 9" of latex is inside the range for the thickness of the latex layers inside a mattress that would allow for a suitable design for the large majority of people.

Now that some time has passed since you received your topper I’d be interested in any updates that you may have.

Thanks,
Sensei :slight_smile:

23

Thanks for all your input Sensei! I too apologize for the delayed response. I’ve been trying to decide whether I’d not to keep the topper. I had removed it from the bed and noticed hair strands coming out of it in several locations. I asked avocado green and they said it’s normal but to still hold on to the box. Is this normal ? Do the experts you have on this site agree with that? If this normal what would be an accurate life span of the topper? I am just wondering how much wool continues to poke out over a period of time and how long until it’s no longer stuffed. Please, any support you could provide would be greatly appreciated!

So far the topper is a huge relief for my existing my essentia classic 8. No more back pain! A wool topper definitely did the trick! Of course now I’m just concerned about the quality of this one that I purchased given that the wool is coming out.

I finally also found out that they do not pre compress the topper. What does this mean for the loft of the topper if it even means anything at all?

Please get back to me as soon as you can because my trial period is about to end. I hope that the fibers coming out is normal but if isn’t then I need to return it and continue my search. I hope this will help others in making decisions as well. Thanks again!

24

Hi alikigia.

I see that Sensei is taking good care of you :slight_smile: I am briefly chiming in with some information that may be helping with your decision.

A little bit of fuzziness and pilling is perfectly normal and so it depends on the degree, but I can’t tell for sure how “normal” it is in this case as I do not have the product in front of me. Some pictures can be more or less helpful to determine, the degree of pilling you are experiencing with your new Alpaca & Wool topper. When posting any photos, I suggest you take the picture with a pencil or object as a measurement reference.

Wool (the uppermost layer under the topper organic cotton fabric) of your topper and to some extent the Alpaca sandwiched between the 0.5" of wool can work themselves free out of the fabric even for cotton with high thread counts. These fibers can also bunch together in tiny balls and form some pilling. Typically this diminishes over time as wool will compress and the stray fibers break away. Assuming that the stranding and piling is minor and localized more to areas of higher use and friction … IMO you have a very good product and just a matter of cosmetics that can be a bit of a nuisance for some more esthetically inclined. (It is nice of Avocado to recommend keeping the shipping box which may be a way of saying that they’ll that’s it back if you are not happy with it. )

I am happy to hear that the topper works so well for you and you are not experiencing back pain on your 8-year-old existing Esentia mattress. Just as Sensei was mentioning previously… Once you found a product in terms of comfort/support that works well for you…. I would certainly not encourage to return it for the benefit of a discount.

After the initial fluffing from unpacking, the product will compress and firm up a bit over time forming a more stable cradle … it will have a greater effect on the foam underneath it as it becomes a little firmer. A wool mattress pad/topper isn’t an integral part of the mattress and will conform more to your shape and the layer underneath it. and would be generally “softer” than a wool quilted mattress for example. How well a wool topper will conform also depends on the topper/pad fabric. The more stretchable the material (stretch knits as opposed to a woven damask cover) the better conforming qualities on the shape of the body and the more pressure relieving,

To loop back to your initial question about the differences between Alpaca and wool the list I compiled below describes the main ones. Provided the animal age and breed are taken into account as they can significantly alter the material qualities, here are some differences between Alpaca and wool. In very basic lines I’d just think … Camel vs Sheep. Camel ( laminoids) can handle extreme temperature variations, UV exposure, moisture control. Aside from price which is a major consideration of the main “difference”, here is a sum-up of some of the “differences” between the two fibers.
• .Alpaca fibers are shorter and most often thinner in diameter than the wool fibers and can also amount for the strands you are seeing in your new topper.
• Alpaca fibers are less wide (in the ranges of 18 to 32 microns) vs wool resulting in a softer and more luxurious feel.
• Alpaca fibers are hollow or almost hollow vs wool fibers that have air pockets> The additional hollow space provides better insulation and provides better temperature regulation properties feeling warmer in winter and cooler during summer.
• Alpaca has better moisture-wicking properties. While on average it absorbs 35% of its weight in moisture vs wool that absorbs 50% of its weight in moisture, Alpaca’s fiber structure and trapped warmth allows for better moisture evaporation vs wool that can get saturated and cause the moisture to get trapped next to the skin. This means that Alpaca dries faster, better wicks moisture, and is feels warmer for similar-sized fibers.
• Alpaca has very low height fiber scales, which is less itchy than wool and also contributes to the softer and more luxurious feel.
• Alpaca does not shrink or felt as much as wool when laundering.
• Alpaca lacks lanoline and is considered hypoallergenic vs wool that has to be super washed to remove the barbs and lanolin which, in some cases, it is treated with synthetic resins.
• Alpaca is more durable and it has a much higher tensile strength than wool does. It is the second only to silk and some of the phloem fibers such as hemp, linen, flax, ramie.

You can read a bit more about alpaca/wool comparisons in the back-packing-light forum and generally about Alpaca Fibers on this Fabric Guide Masterclass article, also Wikipedia has a good article

I hope that this adds good insights for you to help with your decision to keep or return the topper.
I’d be curious to know which way you chose to go.

Phoenix