It’s not really possible for me to know what the cause of your symptoms may be because I can’t feel what you feel or see you on the mattress but there is some information in post #2 here that talks about the more common symptoms that people can experience on a mattress and some of the possible causes for them but most symptoms can have multiple causes and if simple solutions that would generally work for most people don’t work for you (such as adding the topper) … then trying to “diagnose” the types of changes that may be most beneficial to you can be more complex and the best approach with these types of more complex issues would be a more detailed conversation on the phone and possibly another visit to test different combinations in person.
In general terms though … the most common (but not the only) cause for lower back pain is either support cores that are too soft (which wouldn’t be the case with your mattress because it’s very firm) or comfort layers that are too thick and soft for your body type or sleeping positions both of which can cause your hips/pelvis so sink in too deeply and “tilt” which can put your lower back out of alignment.
I talked with John and he said that all their floor models are the same as the mattresses that their customers receive and they all include the fire barrier for that particular mattress. As you know this can be removed for those customers where the fire barriers are causing an issue with comfort or at least to test and see if removing it makes a difference.
It sounds to me like you may have chosen a mattress that was more suitable for exclusive stomach sleepers but would be too firm for most people that spend much time sleeping on their side and that your testing didn’t effectively predict your sleeping experience. it may be a good idea pay them another visit so you can very carefully test different combinations in all your sleeping positions (using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) to see which combination of materials would be a better match for you.
As you know they allow for one free layer exchange with a mattress and the after that they only charge the cost of the materials for any further changes. I think that when you are facing more complex issues though that the best idea would be to first talk with John on the phone so you can explain your experiences in more detail (both on the original mattress and with the topper) and he can explain the options you have available that along with more careful testing (if you visit them again) would give you the best chance of success. They would be much more familiar with their own mattresses and the options they have available that can help with any issues you may be having than anyone else.
This would be typical of a zoned core or layer yes. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here. Zoning is often helpful because it can help to “hold up” the heavier parts of the body more effectively (such as the hips/pelvis) while at the same time “allowing” the wider and lighter shoulders to sink in more deeply so you sink into a mattress more evenly which can help with alignment but like any mattress design, what works well for one person may not work as well for someone else because each person is unique. The “bottom line” … no matter what the design of a mattress … is always whether your testing or personal experience indicates that a mattress is a good match for you.
I’ll call them tomorrow and see what John says. in the mean time I’m going to remove the soft topper and try just the core and comfort layers possibly with a pad or topper from Wal-Mart that I can return?
There would be little risk in trying anything that has a good return policy and you believe would be helpful. If it works then it would be a great choice and if it doesn’t there would be little risk. If it improves things but still isn’t “ideal” then it can also be a “pointer” to the types of changes that may be better yet.
We’re going to try and find time to go back to the showroom one weekend. Spoke with John, he seemed very cool about working with us to get it right. Until then we are going to try different setups for a few nights at a time.
Currently we removed the 2 inch soft topper they sent us and replaced it with a cheap mattress pad from target. Much less lower back pain but still not comfy, we both toss and turn a lot. It feels like there’s pressure on my lower back when i lay on my back, pressure on my hip and shoulders on my side and pressure on my hip and ribcage on my stomach.
I attached a picture of the soft topper they sent me. Is this zoning? the mattress itself has the same pattern on the comfort layer, cant tell if support layer looks like this too.
Thanks for the update and the picture … and it’s always good to see a manufacturer that works so closely with their customers to help them find the best possible combination
Yes … the smaller pincores would be the zones that are slightly firmer and are under the heavier areas of the body in the lower back and hips/pelvis that may need to be “held up” more and the larger pincores would be the zones that are slightly softer and are under the wider/lighter areas of the body such as the shoulders that may need to be “allowed” to sink in a little more deeply.
ok so soonest I can make it into their showroom is Saturday.
original mattress setup 6" extra firm(45ild) + 2" medium(35ild) - too firm. can’t sleep on side, doesn’t form cradle. develop pressure points, soreness. no major alignment issues seemingly. But fiance needs to sleep on side because of preganancy
first solution tried : adding a 2" soft topper (19ild) to it - initially feels much softer to touch, alignment all messed up, chronic lower back pain, seemingly pressure points too.
third solution: original mattress + target “down alternative” mattress pad. Same symptoms as original mattress, maybe less pronounced.
tonight: 2 inch memory foam isotonic topper from Bed bath Beyond atop original mattress. link here
Should I try incorporating the 19ild 2" latex topper in the mix anywhere?
Could the 2" 19ild topper atop original be too soft overall? why would it mess up my alignment and lower back like that?
This isn’t surprising for someone that spends time on their side because side sleepers generally need softer/thicker layers for pressure relief.
This would be “in the range” that “theory” says would work for most people in your situation and would often be thick/soft enough to isolate you from the firmness of the deeper layers when you are on your side but still thin enough to have less effect on alignment when you are on your stomach. It may be a little on the soft side for you though so you may still be feeling more of the firmness of the deeper layer “through” the topper than you prefer which may be the reason for the pressure points although I would imagine they would be significantly less. As I mentioned in our previous discussions what may work “in theory” and what works in “real life” can be very different.
This would also be fairly typical for a fiber mattress pad which can provide some “point specific” pressure relief but is more about changing the surface “feel” of the mattress because it doesn’t have the resilience to redistribute pressure as effectively as a softer foam layer and it is much less “supportive” under the more recessed parts of your sleeping profile (such as the small of your back or your waist) than foam. Fiber also becomes firmer as it compresses so you would still be likely to feel the firmness of the latex underneath it … just a little bit less.
I’ll be interested in hearing how this works for you. It may still “allow” a little too much of the firmness of the latex below it to “come through” and the “feel” will be very different from either a fiberbed or a softer latex topper but again your experience will be the best way to know how well it works and how you like the “feel” of memory foam.
I would only make single changes one at a time so that you can better see the effect of each change and there are less variables involved in identifying the reason for any changes in your sleeping experience with each change. I would also make sure that you test each combination for at least a few days so that your body has a chance to “catch up” with the changes and you can see more of a pattern in how each change affects you because your experience with only a night or two can be an anomaly or can be a result of making changes too quickly.
It’s certainly possible although it would be less likely with 2" of 35 ILD underneath it. While I can’t know why any specific person experiences any of the symptoms they may experience … and the previous posts I linked go into much more detail about the most common causes of different symptoms … lower back issues are most likely either from comfort layers that are too thick/soft and “allow” your hips/pelvis to sink in too far for too long over the course of the night in one or more of your sleeping positions which leads to spinal misalignment … or from pressure points that can cause you to “turn away” from the pressure with part of your body so that your body is somewhat “twisted” and out of good rotational alignment (for example one part of your body may be more in a side position while another part may be closer to a stomach position). A third possibility would be that you may be making changes too quickly but I don’t know how many days you tried each of your combinations.
Based on our feedback … it may be worthwhile changing the 35 ILD to 28 ILD which still may not provide you with ideal pressure relief (although it may) but it would likely move you a little closer and be a better “base” for any additional fine tuning that may be necessary on top of it. Of course I would confirm this with your testing as “accurately” as you can.
So it’s been 3 nights on the memory foam topper on original mattress. Can’t sleep on side at all but stomach sleeping is bearable, sore shoulders, no lower back pain.
Just unzipped things and thought I’d share some pictures of the mattress. I noticed the labels are upside down and the core seems like a different color and texture than the comfort layer. I’m driving out to their showroom again saturday to test different configurations and talk to them but I’m worried I’ll still be stuck in this hell of not the right mattress.
On a side note in this whole adventure; I’ve stopped caring so much about the noisy split-platform. I paid for delivery of a replacement set and they make the same crunching sound when we first get into bed, like wood splitting. This is just a minor aspect of whats been a very frustrating and expensive experience upwards of 3,000 and I can’t get a good nights sleep.
This sounds like the topper still isn’t thick/soft enough for you to isolate you from the firmness of the layers below the topper. The good news is that your alignment seems to be better with no back pain.
It’s normal for natural latex to have variations in the color or the texture and the layers can be used with either side up so none of this would be an issue.
I’m glad to see that you will be visiting them so you can test some of the configurations that we’ve talked about previously.
I’m looking forward to your feedback after your visit and hopefully you will be able to report some progress in the layering that works best for you.
Tried out different setups today. We decided to switch to a softer core; what they call “medium” it’s 35ild. We will still have the soft topper too if we need it. John is personally remaking the split platform for us, (without cardboard and with more slats) and sewing a stretch fit fire barrier,
and most importantly doing the layer exchange at my residence.
Me too, this is an interesting read!
I thought I was a back sleeper before trying latex…I side sleep mostly. My ILD is 28 over 28 both 3" and I no longer suffer shoulder pain as I did with 32/36.
Good Luck.
