New mattress or topper? (and too many other thoughts/questions)

Discussions General Mattresses Questions
1

Hey Everyone!

First off, I am glad I found this site, it has been very informative (however you’ll see from all my questions that I am probably on information overload at this point), so thanks to everyone who contributes (especially Phoenix!).

Background specs:
My partner and I have been sleeping on an Ikea Sultan Favang which is two years old (Ikea lists it as 5.5" with 2.2lb high-resilience polyurethane foam). We do not hate the mattress, and it hasn’t shown noticeable wear, but we just bought a new house and are in “buy new stuff mode” and a more comfortable mattress sounds very appealing. I am 27, 5’10", ~150lbs, and he is 26, 5’9" ~165lbs. I am a stomach and side sleeper, and he is a side sleeper. I have intermittent low back pain that I have no idea if our bed helps or hurts it, and I also find that some leftover nerve tingling/pain from a bout of shingles on my leg can be aggravated by the firmness of our bed when I sleep on that side for a prolonged period of time.

We have gone to a few different mattress stores and tried out a lot of beds trying to find out what we like. We have found overall that we prefer a softer bed, though I find things in a “plush” type description to be better than eurotop/pillowtop. We always thought we preferred a firm bed, but in trying beds we have found that to not be the case. I thought I really enjoyed the Simmons Beautyrest Truenergy Jenna and the Tempurpedic Cloud Luxe but one salesman pointed out to me that as a stomach sleeper those beds would not offer nearly enough support and my back would be concave. This was a concern of mine with the Jenna as I did feel that my back was curved in and not quite comfortable on that bed (though I loved the softness of it), however I didn’t notice the issue as much on the tempurpedic, but I probably only laid on that for 5 minute periods, so likely didn’t allow enough “melting” time, but how much I was sunk in at my body’s heaviest points was quite visible even after a few minutes.

After reading info on this site I wanted to try a local manufacturer so went to Jamestown Mattress, I did like their Heavenly Cloud Plus Latex, but it wasn’t a must-have for me, so I decided to keep looking, but that was where I started to explore more latex options.

After going to Jamestown Mattress I went to a more name brand seller (this is where the salesman pointed out that as a stomach sleeper I need firm support) and wound up liking a SleepLogic bed (not sure which, it was not the Refresh but I do not know if it was ChiroSense or LifeScape) and two Pranasleep beds. I thought I was settled on the Pranasleep Lotus Superplush 13" latex mattress, and came very close to buying, but decided to think a little more, and just a small bit of googling of pranasleep found limited but terrible reviews. That led me to do more research and leaves me with my current thoughts/questions.

Through this site I have been looking at Brooklyn Bedding for the Total Latex or their Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams Latex Mattress. Looking at the Ultimate Dreams, it seems that it is primarily a 3" latex layer on top of high density foam, so one thought I had would be to actually not buy the Ultimate Dream, and instead just get a 3" latex topper from Brooklyn Bedding, and put it on top of my ikea foam mattress. Am I correct in thinking that my current mattress is pretty similar to the foam core of this mattress, and I may be able to just pair what I have to build something better?

I have seen the positive comments on Brooklyn Bedding on this site, and the Total Latex definitely sounds nice, but I am wondering what people think about just two layers of latex, versus going with something more in the way of a Flobed, which the vZone would give me 3 layers of latex with the top being more customized to different body zones than just a single layer. Being able to have varying layers for both my partner and myself is also quite appealing from Flobed, so does anyone have thoughts on Total Latex vs Flobed’s vZone? I know feel and value are quite subjective, but the Flobed is going to be roughly $800 more, and I don’t know if the flexibility is worth the increase and am just looking for any comparisons one might have.

I am very nervous about buying a bed online without trying, but it seems like the most reliable latex mattress I could try (Jamestown Mattress) wasn’t one I was in love with (but also didn’t hate). Being able to exchange comfort layers helps put my mind at ease, but I think my partner will kill me if I drag out this selection and purchase for too long as he is already ready for a decision to be made…

A couple other questions/thoughts:
-I have seen tons of info/debates on dunlop vs talalay. Given that I prefer a softer bed I think that talalay is likelier better for me as a comfort layer, but that as a stomach sleeper I need good support, so the denser dunlop could be better as a core- does this seem like an accurate assessment?
-Retailers and manufacturers that only allow exchanges within 30 days give me pause because I don’t know if that is a long enough break-in period, the ones that are in the 90-120 day range put my mind more at ease. Should I be weary of the shorter exchange periods? That is one reason I am ruling out Jamestown Mattress, as they only allow 30 days.
-I do not have a specific price range, I want a good bed, if it comes cheaply then that is great, but if I have to pay for quality that is okay, however my cash on hand is not unlimited- has anyone done financing through mattress retailers before? I have heard it may not be easy to obtain and am just looking for any general experiences.

Okay that is it (for now). Thank you to anyone who has made it through reading my lengthy post, and double thank you to anyone who responds! Happy sleeping everyone!

2

Hi mkorona,

Based on your comments and your questions … I would guess you are crossing the line into “paralysis by analysis” and as you mentioned going into “information overload”. The “best” suggestion in this case would be to simplify your overall approach and the best suggestion I could make is to step back and focus more on who you are dealing with than what mattress you “should” buy or making comparisons between materials that may be different (such as Dunlop and Talalay) but where one is not “better” than another. When you deal with (and spend the time to talk with) more knowledgeable manufacturers or retailers … you will find that they already know what you would otherwise need to learn in much more detail and are very experienced with answering the types of questions you have as they relate to their own mattresses. There is always a tendency when doing more in depth research to look at things in terms of “better or worse” when in reality most of the choices you will have are preference choices and only your own personal experience can really answer questions about preferences.

The first place I would start is post #1 here and follow the steps one by one.

This is an example of a preference choice where only you can answer questions about “is it worth it?” based on your own personal value equation and your confidence that you will make the most suitable choices. The “best approach” is to talk in more detail with each of the manufacturers you are considering so you can use the information they provide you to see which design seems to best fit your criteria for quality, value, and design flexibility. For some people greater design flexibility and the ability to re-arrange or exchange more layers is a significant “value bonus” while for others it is less important. There is no “better or worse” here except in terms of what is most important to you.

No it’s not really accurate because only looking at the type of latex doesn’t take most of the variables into account. Both Dunlop and Talalay come in a range of firmness levels and the choice between them is a personal preference. While Dunlop will generally “feel” firmer than Talalay in the same ILD … if you compare it to a firmer Talalay then the firmness difference will be gone. Layer thickness and the mattress design will also make a significant difference to which design is most suitable for you. Regardless of any difference between them, they will have a different “feel” (see post #7 here) and some will prefer one over another in either comfort or support layers. Again … there is no “better or worse” here … only differences that are a matter of preference and a design that is most suitable for your specific needs and preferences regardless of which material you use.

This depends entirely on the quality and accuracy of your testing and to some degree on the experience and knowledge of the people you are dealing with. With a local purchase where you can test a mattress specifically and objectively so you have the confidence that only minor fine tuning (if any at all) will be necessary then I personally would have no hesitation with 30 days. It would also depend on what options you have to exchange for because if there are no exchange options that are likely to work for you if your initial choice isn’t the best one then an exchange policy would have little value. Of course with most local manufacturers (and most of the better online manufacturers) there are usually good options available for either softer or firmer levels of either comfort or support that can use your experience over 30 days to make a suitable choice with very high odds of success on your second try.

On the other hand an online purchase doesn’t give you any initial reference points based on your own testing so a longer exchange period (or layer exchange options) to make up for the additional risk of an online purchase can be helpful.

I would at least have a budget range in mind before you begin seriously considering your options. You can find a suitable mattress with good quality and value in many budget ranges depending on your personal criteria and what is most important to you. I would ask yourself where you are on a scale that ranges from “I can sleep on anything” on one end to “princess and the pea” on the other end. Where you are on the scale will play a role in the flexibility and complexity of a design you may need (and the price of the mattress) along with the quality, performance, and durability of the materials that you prefer (more durable and higher performance materials like latex or higher quality memory foam with more complex layering will be more costly). Again no matter where you end up making a purchase … you will do better if you have some reference points based on personal testing at better retailers and manufacturers that disclose the specs of the materials in their mattress that you can use to “translate” complex information into personal experience.

I would also narrow down your choices to one at each local or online manufacturer or retailer you are considering (based on your testing and/or your conversations with them), eliminate the “worst” choices based on your personal criteria, and then make final choices between your “finalists” which at this point should be choices between “good and good” based on your own personal value equation. I would think more in terms of the quality of materials (durability) and on the likelihood that they will be suitable for you in real life (either with or without fine tuning) rather than in terms of “better or worse” based on “theory” that may not reflect your personal experience.

Phoenix

3

Hi mkorona,

I am by no means a mattress expert at all; I’ve only experienced two different latex beds so far after having a Simmons Beautyrest xfirm innerspring for the last 7 years. I can tell you if you are considering all latex, please try to find somewhere that you can try both dunlop, talalay, and a combination if possible. I hadn’t tried any latex beds before I bought the first (all talalay), and was very surprised when I then went to a showroom and tried a hybrid (latex over springs - Berkeley Ergonomics), and then a dunlop with talalay topper (Savvy Rest), and all dunlop (Oyasumi, Oyasumi Dream, Green Sleep). To me, talalay is more bouncy. It’s hard to explain the different feel, but it is different, and you should definitely try them out in person to really decide what you like and what fits your specific requirements. I actually just returned a Flobeds Vzone, and purchased a Green Sleep. The jury is still out on the Green Sleep (all dunlop), because I’ve only had it a few days and it’s still breaking in and I’m still adjusting. As for the Flobeds, it took me awhile until I found a combination that worked for me, and by the time I did, I had already jumped the gun and ordered the other bed because I was nervous about running out of time on my Flobeds trial period.

I found the Vzone difficult to get right at first, and tried different combinations of X-firm, firm and vzone layers. Mostly I had problems with my hips sinking too far. To be fair, I was also adjusting to my first all-latex bed, and it was very different from the feel of an innerspring, so I was probably hypersensitive to little changes and differences that in my old bed I wouldn’t have even paid any attention to. I am mostly a side sleeper, and I was used to a really firm mattress with a featherbed topper until I bought the Flobeds. It did seem to me that the talalay latex softened quite a bit during the couple of months i had the bed, and that whenever I found a combination that seemed to be okay, it would then soften too much (or I just became accustomed to it and subjectively thought it had softened). I finally found a combination that worked for me; unfortunately I had already ordered the Green Sleep, which is non-returnable. What I can say is this: 1) my combination of medium Vzone, Firm, and X-firm layers actually ended up feeling like a pretty soft bed, even with the unconventional arrangement I finally found comfortable; 2) I was pretty happy on my back and side with that arrangement, and had no pressure points or lower back pain; 3) my husband, though he can sleep on anything, I believe found it to be a little soft for his normal stomach sleeping position (though he didn’t have any complaints); 4) Flobeds is an excellent and reputable company that really works with you to try to help you find your best bed. Are they more expensive? Yes. Do they make a great product? I believe so. It may not be for everyone, but there is no doubt about their quality. Are they unbeatable in customer service? Yes. They were always responsive and helpful, and offered to send me anything I thought might help. When I finally decided to return it, there were no questions asked. I will let you know if I have any difficulty with my refund, but I doubt I will. Some people on this and other sites have been very happy with their Flobeds, and many had to go firmer than I would have imagined would have been comfortable (Super firm over Xfirm over Xfirm!). The downside is that unless you live near Ft Bragg CA, you really just have to take a leap of faith, but if it doesn’t work, you’re out about $300 or less (I live in NY, so it was $300 shipping round-trip).

All that said, I’m sure Phoenix will tell you that you can probably find similar quality for less, and he’s probably right. I have no experience except with Flobeds. As for mattresses with a combination of p/u foam and latex, personally I liked the idea of an all-natural, all-latex bed, as I was trying to go “greener” - but that may not be an issue for you or your partner. I will tell you this - if I had a two-bedroom apartment, I would have still perhaps bought the Green Sleep, but I also would have kept the Flobeds! Just keep in mind that you will probably have to “tweak” things for a bit (with any mattress), and any mattress will definitely require a break-in period and an adjustment period for you.

Good luck with your search, and definitely try to find a place where you can try out all-latex beds. Don’t be afraid to hang out for some time, either. I went to a showroom 3 times and tried out beds for probably a total of 3-4 hours, and it’s still a different experience when you actually buy the bed and sleep in it for 7 hours at a stretch.

4

Hi rockalicious2013,

Great post … and great insights and advice :slight_smile:

I put a lot of “value” on the ability to customize or fine tune a mattress and the willingness of a retailer or manufacturer to work with you and I know that FloBeds is excellent in both regards. As you also mentioned … price is only one part of “value” and at the end of the day … most people remember much more about how well they slept than they do about “relatively” minor differences in the price of a mattress although of course the price you pay is also an important part of value.

I’d be interested for the sake of reference to see what combination ended up working for you.

My understanding from your post is that you ended up with (top to bottom) …

2" convoluted soft layer
3" Medium vZone
3" Firm
3" X-Firm

I’m curious how you ended up configuring the vZone sections (or did you use the medium default arrangement here).

Thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Phoenix

5

Hey Phoenix! I actually ended up with a weird combination based on advice you gave to someone else who didn’t have a Flobeds, but something similar. I think this person was at the end of his rope as well, having tried so many different combinations.

Trying to remember all my combos and the resulting problems…My original configuration was, top to bottom, convoluted layer, medium vzone (with soft under the hips), firm, and Xfirm. Felt like my hips were too low and it caused me back pain. I did swap a few Vzone pieces around - tried medium under my hips and firm under my back, but that elevated my back too much. Total princess and the pea moment.

Then tried the topper, firm, Vzone, Xfirm, but this was early in the trial, and it felt too hard. At Dewey’s suggestion, I went softer by swapping with my husband so he had 2 firms and an X-firm while I “stole” his Vzone layer, so for awhile I was sleeping on two Vzones and the Xfirm (still with topper). During this period I tried a soft hip piece in the top Vzone and medium piece in the middle Vzone. Too soft. Swapped that to the medium hip Vzone over the soft hip Vzone. That worked for some time, but ultimately 2 Vzones were too soft, and I felt like my husband’s 2 firms and Xfirm were too hard. But the medium over soft concept gave me an idea, and then I read your post, and thought, what do I have to lose? Let’s just get crazy. :slight_smile:

I went back to the original configuration (except that I kept the medium vzone piece under my hips instead of their suggested soft piece), and flipped the convoluted topper over so that the flat side was face up. Better, but still too soft and mushy.

At this point I decided to order the Green Sleep, which I did, but then I felt like I wanted to try a different configuration with the Flobeds that would hopefully be somewhat comfortable until my new bed came in. And that’s when I finally found - too late - the configuration that worked for me:

From top to bottom:

Firm
Vzone (medium piece under hips)
Upside down convoluted layer
Xfirm

The reason I think this worked for me is because I needed a firmer surface, but the firm/firm/xfirm was too much. By putting the firm on top, I got enough “feeling” of firmness, but then instead of hitting another firm latex layer underneath, which I think would have been too much, I had the Vzone and upside down convoluted layer, which allowed the firm piece to “melt” into the softer layers for my head and shoulders, while still maintaining a bit more support due to the medium piece under my hips and back. And finally, so things didn’t get too soft, I had the core support layer of xfirm on the bottom. It seemed counterintuitive - I know some mattresses are made like a sandwich where two soft layers surround a firm core (to make it flippable), but this was the only configuration that worked for me. If I slept too long, it would occasionally still feel a little too soft, but mostly it felt supportive yet wonderfully cushion-like. I told Flobeds that at least when I order my next bed, I’ll know what crazy configuration works for me! Now i just have to figure out what’s going to work best with the Green Sleep :slight_smile:

I gave you the gory details in the hope that maybe it might help someone else someday, whether they have a Flobeds, or a similar kit bed.

Keep up the good work - the mattress world is crazy, so it’s nice to have a voice of reason and sanity to turn to!

-Racquel

6

Hi rockalicious2013,

You certainly tried your share of combinations!

Your final configuration reminds me of the example I used in this article about how even “carved wood” can provide great pressure relief if it matches the shape of the body … until you move … except in your case the soft zoned latex underneath allowed the firmer latex (the carved wood) to adapt to a new body profile when you changed positions. Of course firm latex isn’t quite as firm as carved wood but the idea is the same.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences and hopefully it will help others that find themselves in a similar position and encourage them to try some “unusual” combinations if it becomes necessary :slight_smile:

Phoenix

7

Thanks for the advice Phoenix and for sharing your experience with Flobed Rockalicious2013!

I decided to stop over analyzing and make a decision based off what I had felt at the stores. I knew I liked latex as my medium overall and I knew I liked a plusher bed, but I also knew my current bed wasn’t terrible, so I decided to just toe my way in and go with a 3" latex topper (24 ILD) from Brooklyn Bedding. I chatted with them online and they said if I decide I want a whole bed I could use the topper in that and save on the cost of that component when purchasing the bed, so I figured it is a low cost/risk way for me try buying from an internet company (there wasn’t anything I loved locally at this point), especially since there are options for exchanging or even returning the topper if I find it doesn’t feel right to me.

Thanks again!

8

Hi mkorona,

That sounds like a good decision to me and will give you the chance to try a latex top layer and evaluate the firmness level you chose. Of course the same layer may not be quite the same with different layers underneath it but it will give you a good approximation if you decide to take the next step and as you mentioned the risk is low :slight_smile:

Phoenix