Itâs very possible that the memory foam you are using is very low density or has softened in which case you would âgo throughâ it and feel more of the firmness of the firmer polyfoam below it. As you mentioned ILD can vary with the material and testing method so a firm ILD in one material may not be sofirm with another although ILD by itself is only one of the factors that makes a layer feel either soft or firm and in some cases it isnât even the most important factor (compression modulus for example can be even more important than ILD in terms of how firm or soft a material feels but it usually isnât disclosed).
If the pain has âmoved upâ then to some degree thatâs good news because it may indicate that your pelvis is probably sinking in less and the alignment in your lower back is better (which is information that can be useful in guessing your ideal configuration) but itâs also possible that with the greater firmness that your pillow may be too thick and could now be contributing to alignment issues in your upper body (stomach sleepers generally do best with a very thin pillow or no pillow at all) because it appears that your alignment issue and âsymptomsâ have moved from the lumbar area to the thoracic area.
i only bought the memory foam a week ago from target. i am guessing it is around 3 LB by the weight and the size and a quick calculation. i am using the free latex pillow that dreamfoam sent. i also have a down hotel collection pillow if that matters. the dreamfoam 5lb topper will be here tomorrow. thats the next trial.
so after 3 nights on the flipped mattress and the 2" 5LB BB topper my back is in a lot less pain. i have noticed over the last 2 nights i wake up during the night with my arm falling asleep or in pain. also i cannot fall asleep on my side anymore, the mattress is too hard. chuck found a shipping company for me that would charge 200$ to ship the mattress back to him from NY. i really wish i would have known the difference about purchasing from amazon directly and an amazon market place. especially since the difference was only 10$.
i have actually been contemplating going with FIRM 34-38 5.30pcf (84.9 kg/m3) dunlop for the comfort layer in their natural mattress. i know that has wool as well as poly in the quilting but it is still listed at 1.5".
i emailed chuck tuesday night so i am waiting to hear back from him. i know he said sometimes my emails went into his spam so i resent it last night and tried to call him today and found out he is away for a few days. hopefully he will get back to me monday. thanks for all your help.
These types of symptoms are usually an indication of a comfort layer that is too firm or too thin (not the entire mattress itself) when you are sleeping on your side. I thought you were a stomach sleeper? This would likely be too thin and firm directly on top of a firmer support layer for most people although it could work well for back or stomach sleepers that didnât spend time on their sides.
If Chuck found a shipping method that can ship the mattress back for $200 thatâs pretty good because an Amazon large items return would normally be in the range of 20% of the cost of the mattress (according to my conversations with them) which wouldnât be much less.
Have you tried the memory foam topper on top of the mattress the right way up?
I would be cautious with a firm Dunlop comfort layer because this would likely be too firm as well for side sleeping for most people.
i should have clarified that sometimes (10-20%) i turn to my side just to fall asleep but i always sleep on my stomach.
i havenât tried the new 5 LB 2" topper with the mattress the right side up. i figured if i had the worst back pain with the cheap 3" topper on the mattress the right side up that putting the 2" topper with the right side up wouldnât be any better. i could try that tonight.
You could very well be right but each combination you try (and I would try each for at least a few days to eliminate other variables that could affect how you sleep) will give you more references and help âpointâ in the direction of the best possible solution. A higher quality/density memory foam will âhold upâ the heavier parts of your body more effectively than lower quality/density although if the layers underneath it are too soft then a topper will still tend to âbendâ into the softer layers below them. In some cases it may be a partial improvement though and is always worth testing.
A few other things that would also be worth looking at to eliminate any other variables and help isolate the underlying cause of any sleeping symptoms include âŚ
Any mattress protector, mattress pad, or sheets that are interfering with the ability of the upper layers to soften and compress.
A pillow that is not keeping your head and neck in good alignment (for stomach sleepers a very thin pillow or no pillow at all usually works best)
Your sleep position ⌠for example any twisting in your sleep position (such as the head and neck or half side half front sleeping positions), raising your arms above your shoulders (such as sleeping with them under your head) which can cut off circulation, or sleeping with your arms under your body which can often lead to upper body symptoms or pressure issues ⌠especially with thinner top layers.
The foundation under the mattress to make sure that it has no soft spots or flex under the heavier parts of your body.
Tracking down the underlying cause of any sleeping âsymptomsâ can involve some detective work and a process of elimination and slow incremental changes to help identify the effects of each change relative to what you tried previously is usually the most effective approach.
Any mattress protector, mattress pad, or sheets that are interfering with the ability of the upper layers to soften and compress.
i will take off the thin mattress pad i have tonight
A pillow that is not keeping your head and neck in good alignment (for stomach sleepers a very thin pillow or no pillow at all usually works best)
i have thin down pillows and 1 of the shredded latex pillows which is pretty thin.
Your sleep position ⌠i always sleep with my arms above my head, usually under my head
The foundation under the mattress to make sure that it has no soft spots or flex under the heavier parts of your body.
the foundation is the wire frame by malof from amazon that you linked in the sticky thread about foundations.
i will switch the mattress back to the latex side up and take off the mattress protector and add the 5LB 2" memory foam topper tonight and sleep for a few days on that and report back.
The down would probably be a good choice for most stomach sleepers because it will compress more and is generally thinner than latex although it may be too thin for side sleeping without being âscrunched upâ.
This can cause numbness in your arms depending on how much they are bent because it restricts circulation. It may also affect you more on one mattress than another depending on the softness of the surface.
This is fine and wouldnât be a likely cause of any symptoms.
Iâll be interested to hear about your experiences with this combination although Iâd also try the 2" topper without the mattress pad on the firm side (depending on the type of mattress pad you are using and itâs affect on the memory foam).
i already flipped the mattress back to original, latex side up. the mattress pad was a thin vera wang that kohls sells, minimal padding, i think it was like 40$. i probably have less than a week left with the mattress, as i will be shipping it back to chuck i would think by the end of next week. i think i got it on the 11th or 12th of july. so not too many days left to try things out. then i will probably get an air bed from walmart or target while i wait for my new mattress to be delivered. first i have to decide what i want and actually talk to chuck over the phone rather than emails.
thanks
so the mattress goes back today, the shipping company should be here soon, 200$ to return it⌠i slept on it for the past week with no mattress protector and the 5 LB memory foam topper with the latex side up (normal) and i have had less back pain but it is still there every morning.
i have been thinking, you suggested a thinner comfort zone, do you think i could get by with 2" latex in an ild of 36? i am thinking about making my own mattress.
the talalay 2" topper i can return if i wanted to switch out within 30 days. i could also get 3" of the talalay for 260 but i am not sure i would need that thickness since you recommended a thinner layer.
i would obviously get a good mattress cover after i finished my experimenting and found what i liked.
thanks, these were just some random thoughts floating through my head.
[quote]i have been thinking, you suggested a thinner comfort zone, do you think i could get by with 2" latex in an ild of 36? i am thinking about making my own mattress.
The suggestion was more specific to the design you had not to a new design where all the layers are different. Every layer affects every other layer and the thickness and firmness of all the layers work together as a whole and each separate âspecâ can only be looked at in combination with the rest ⌠not in isolation.
Your suggested design would certainly be much firmer than the mattress you had (in the comfort and support layers) and would have better odds of being successful in terms of alignment for a stomach sleeper although it may not do very well for side sleeping because the upper layers are quite firm and this would be a significant jump in firmness compared to what you had. You are going from one side of the range to another and something in between may end up working better. In the end though the only way to know for certain is to try it and then use your specific experience to make any further adjustments that may be necessary. The good news is that itâs easier to make a mattress that is too firm softer (by adding toppers) than to try to firm up a mattress that is already too soft.
do you think there would be much of a difference between 2" 36 ILD latex and 3 " 36 in the second layer? the price difference is minimal but i was unsure because of the suggestions of a thinner/firmer support core.
Thickness and softness work together and thicker layers will feel softer than thinner layers because they have more of a ârangeâ of compression and go from softer to firmer more gradually. Whether this can be actually felt in a specific construction depends on many factors including body weight, weight distribution, and sleeping position as well as sensitivity but a 3" layer in theory and in practice would act softer than a 2" layer yes.
Iâm not sure which suggestions you mean because in most cases I speak in terms of concepts that can give people a better idea of the differences between different designs and not specific suggestions (unless the better choice between two options is clear and more âblack and whiteâ). Can you link the suggestion you mean so I can see its context?
i was figuring since the mattress i had from UD was 3" of 28ILD and your comments and i guess you were just discussing concepts, i guess i can just buy the 3" of the firmer ILD and if i dont like it i could return it, i have 30 days. my choices are blended talalay from latexco and the ILD ratings are:
Firm 34 -40 ILD
Medium-Firm 28-33 ILD
i have the choice of 2" or 3" of either layer, i would likely go 2" of the medium firm or 3" of the firm based on my findings with the UD 28ILD mattress i just returned.
either one of these with the 6" of 35 ILD poly would most likely be firmer than what i had. i am a little worried that the firm might be too firm at 34-40.
This were the comments i was referring to, which now i realize were concepts.
If a comfort layer is too thick and/or soft ⌠then
Beside making the comfort layers thinner or firmer the options that
I think that the combination of the thickness and softness of your comfort layer is the most likely cause of your problem and that the support layer would probably be OK with the right materials on top of it.
The UD has quilting foam on top which means that it would be thicker and act softer than just 28 ILD latex. Every layer affects every other layer. Any difference in the cover will also affect how the layers in the mattress feel and perform.
That makes more sense ⌠you mentioned in the previous post that my comments about thickness were connected to the support core which can also make a difference but I talk much more often about the thickness/softness of the comfort layers and how this can interact with different firmness levels in the layers below them which is what these comments were about.