New Mattress?

Hi Phoenix,

In the interest of time, I have to get to the point… long story short, I’m considering three options at the present time- the one I may be leaning towards is getting a “complete” mattress from Dixie Foam. When I was there recently speaking with Mark, he didn’t have a complete “CloudRest” mattress but he had the base/middle layers (2.25" or so 1.8lb soft foam on top of 5" HR foam) with the 3" ~15 ILD Radium all natural topper separate. Not surprisingly, this felt too soft and Mark actually mentioned he’d been thinking about making a firmer version of the mattress (not to say that it would generally be categorized as “firm”). He suggested an alternative setup for me- 2" 27 ILD HR foam as a transition layer on top of 5" 35 ILD HR foam with 3" of Talalay as the comfort layer. The bottom 7" makes a lot of sense and I think that would work… the question is now the ILD and type (blended or natural) as well as the manufacturer.

Going by the link to the Radium chart that’s been posted in the forum, I think the “15” ILD all-natural that he currently has is probably technically “13”… so I’m trying to decide what might make the most sense as a “step-up” (or 2) in firmness (Mark was understandably hesitant to make specific suggestions and we both thought it might be worth a post here). The Radium 19 all-natural might be a logical step-up but I’m somewhat partial to the TG blended and think I can actually feel the additional pressure-relief when compared to all-natural. If I went with the TG blended, the question would be 19 or 24… a lot of manufacturers seem to promote the 19 for weights below around 250 lbs or so (I’m about 6’ 225, primarily side sleeper) and I’am afraid to go too firm… that said, I’m not sure if the 19 would be supportive enough. I’ve also heard that TG has been making certain adjustments in the production of the latex to help ensure consistency and durability, so maybe the 19 would be the way to go (to reiterate, I’m very apprehensive about the 24 in case it felt too firm since the overall mattress would still be too soft for a topper).

If I went with Radium, another option may be to go with a Radium 19 blended instead of the all-natural. I have a 2" Radium 22 ILD blended (from this year) and it’s very difficult to distinguish from my 2" 28 ILD Talalay Global blended, hence my thought about the 19 from Radium.

I don’t think I’d consider an all-natural TG “L2” (20-24 ILD I think) because frankly I don’t trust their all-natural, especially with respect to consistency/ durability and resistance to softening. As mentioned, I would consider the 3" Radium all-natural “19” since it would be a step-up from the 13, but as you can probably tell, I’m leaning towards the TG blended 19 or 24.

I’ll try to post more about my search and experiences but wanted to see if you had any particular thoughts/advice on the above. I realize it’s “theory at a distance” at least to some extent, and there are multiple variables, but the decision regarding the top layer is an estimation based on testing and discussion with Mark.

One other thing- Mark had mentioned he uses a “water-based adhesive”… in theory, I like the idea of using a latex-based adhesive, as a few MU members disclose (and Pure Latex Bliss)… the adhesive is one of the details/preferences that I pay attention to (along with the fire barrier for example… I know Dixie uses Ventex)… and I do wish Dixie used a “latex-based” glue as well, so was wondering what you thought about that. There’s obviously plenty of nasty adhesives that are water-based and it seems the latex-based glues are widely considered very “safe”. This may be somewhat similar to a mattress that used a fire-barrier sprayed or dipped in Boric Acid… in reality, it’s probably not going to affect someone… but I wouldn’t buy a mattress that used it, although I do feel comfortable with the rayon/silica products that are now widely used.

Thanks,
Manimal

Hi Manimal,

[quote]Going by the link to the Radium chart that’s been posted in the forum, I think the “15” ILD all-natural that he currently has is probably technically “13”… so I’m trying to decide what might make the most sense as a “step-up” (or 2) in firmness (Mark was understandably hesitant to make specific suggestions and we both thought it might be worth a post here).

I’ll try to post more about my search and experiences but wanted to see if you had any particular thoughts/advice on the above. I realize it’s “theory at a distance” at least to some extent, and there are multiple variables, but the decision regarding the top layer is an estimation based on testing and discussion with Mark.[/quote]

I’m not sure what I can add to my comments in your other topics.

While I can certainly help with “how” to choose … I don’t make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first “rule” of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort” or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) or how a mattress will “feel” to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, or “theory at a distance” that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here).

Post #2 here has more about the different ways to choose the most suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort”, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for but the most reliable way to know whether a mattress is “soft enough” or “firm enough” or is otherwise a good “match” for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own careful testing and/or personal experience.

If you are uncertain about whether any mattress or combination of layers would be a suitable choice for you in terms of PPP then the options you have after a purchase to return or exchange the mattress or replace individual layers with something firmer or softer would become a more important part of the “value” of your purchase.

To make any meaningful suggestions I would first need a more specific point of reference that includes the specs of a similar mattress that you have slept on and a description of the symptoms (or lack of symptoms) you experienced when you slept on it so that I could make a more educated guess about the type or “direction” of any changes that would have a reasonable chance of success (and again this would be a guess at best).

I can say that in your weight range I would probably focus on an ILD that is in the high teens or low 20’s or higher and would avoid top layers that are in the low to mid teens unless the layer is a very thin one (around an inch or so) that would be used just for its “feel” that had something firmer underneath it.

“Latex based” adhesives are basically water based adhesives (like latex paints) that incorporate various types of elastomers (including but not limited to natural or synthetic latex) in different quantities as opposed to adhesives that use solvents (rather than water) and which often have higher levels of VOC’s. There is some good information about different types of adhesives here and some information about some different types of latex adhesives here. I’m not familiar with Ventex but if it’s a water based adhesive then it wouldn’t be something that would concern me.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks- I’ll speak with Mark again to try and determine the best route to take, although your comments and the links provided were still helpful… and sorry to provoke the explanation that I see you so often needing to repeat in forum posts about “feeling what you feel” and 'individual testing", etc.- I hope you can usually paste that in without too much modification :slight_smile: .

Since Mark mentioned that he’d been thinking about offering a mattress with that construction, I may ask him if he’d consider getting a prototype in his showroom or at least the make/ILD of the Talalay he’d be inclined to use. Regardless, I would likely end up going with either the LG blended in either 19 or 24… Mark seemed to feel the 24 may be a little too firm in general.

The only information I can really provide with respect to comparisons are based on what Mark has in the showroom, since the HR foam has a different feel/characteristics compared to the latex combinations I’ve tried. I’m strong considering it because for me, it seems to provide a better overall feel in the base/transition layers than latex- especially for the price. I do know that a mattress Mark used to have in the showroom was very comfortable even though it had a very simple design- 3" of soft (I think ~18 ILD) 2-2.2 lb “ultra-cell” foam over 5" of 35 ILD HR foam. I preferred it over the “original” CloudRest mattress… however, at least in theory, would still prefer latex in the comfort layer, and Mark felt the 27 ILD HR would go well with the 35 ILD base. I would have to confirm Mark would offer an exchange or something if I moved ahead with a purchase, especially since I most likely wouldn’t be able to try out a completed mattress beforehand (I’m pretty sure he would).

You may have misread my comments about Ventex… it’s the company Mark uses for the fire barrier (I was just making a comparison on the glue to my previous concerns with fire barriers under a separate topic) and you’ve actually commented on it before… I did a quick search on “Ventex” and found the below comments from another post in response to essentially the same question::

[What are your thoughts on Ventex? Is it safe and still effective?

Ventex makes inherent fire barriers that don’t have any added chemicals so I would consider them to be “safe enough” yes. All their mattresses (like all the mattresses that are legally sold in the US) have passed 1633 fire regulations so they are also an effective fire barrier.]

At any rate, the info/links you provided on adhesives alleviated any concerns, so thanks again!

Hi Manimal,

No problem. :slight_smile: I know how much most people hope that there is a “formula” or “algorithm” that can make layering choices for them (and I also wish there was such a thing) but experience is really the only reliable way to know.

While there are many people in your weight range that would do well on 24 ILD or even a 28 ILD comfort layer (more in the medium range) 19 ILD would probably be a preference for those that tend to prefer a softer feel. I wouldn’t go any softer than this both for the sake of PPP and for durability reasons.

ILD/IFD ratings don’t compare well between different types of materials or between different types and blends of latex partly because ILD/IFD is tested differently with polyfoam than it is with latex and produces different results (see post #6 here) and partly because there are other specifications besides ILD that can affect how soft or firm a layer feels (see post #4 here). 18 IFD polyfoam would “probably” feel closer to a slightly higher ILD in latex (probably low 20’s) although this would be somewhat subjective and the comparisons will also vary between different versions of polyfoam and latex.

The bottom two layers you are considering sound reasonable to me but much of the “feel” and pressure relief of the mattress will come from the thickness and ILD of the top Talalay layer (and the cover will make some difference as well).

[quote]You may have misread my comments about Ventex… it’s the company Mark uses for the fire barrier (I was just making a comparison on the glue to my previous concerns with fire barriers under a separate topic) and you’ve actually commented on it before… I did a quick search on “Ventex” and found the below comments from another post in response to essentially the same question::

[What are your thoughts on Ventex? Is it safe and still effective?

Ventex makes inherent fire barriers that don’t have any added chemicals so I would consider them to be “safe enough” yes. All their mattresses (like all the mattresses that are legally sold in the US) have passed 1633 fire regulations so they are also an effective fire barrier.]

At any rate, the info/links you provided on adhesives alleviated any concerns, so thanks again! [/quote]

Thanks for the clarification … I did think that you were talking about “Ventex” glue and I’m glad you were able to find the information that you needed about the Ventex fire barrier.

Phoenix

Much like everyone else I looking for a new mattress- I have read your buying tutorial tons of information! I am in the Denver area-zip 80003 - I have been to a couple of retailers- Denver Mattress & Macy’s & Mattress Firm- it sure is a jungle out there. I have looked at a few online sellers - Saatva (not going to happen) and Winkbed which looks like a real possibility & might need to add a topper? I have read the Winkbed thread here as well. I 'm thinking of an interspring hybrid & started looking with Serta iSeries here locally. My preference is a middle firm with some cushion-I’m a side/stomach sleeper & my husband is a side/back sleeper. Oh looking for a king size bed. Any thoughts suggestion is appreciated
Thanks!
Georgia

Hi gyoung,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :slight_smile:

It’s good to see that you’ve read the tutorial.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you’ve read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best “match” for you in terms of “comfort” and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn’t turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the “value” of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists (based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you).

There is more general information about what I call “simplified choice mattresses” that are sold online in post #1 here and there are some comments about Saatva and Winkbeds and many of the other simplified choice mattresses in post #2 here in the same topic. Forum searches on Saatva and on Winkbeds (you can just click the links) will also bring up more comments and feedback about them as well. As you can see both of them include some lower quality/density materials that could be a weak link in their mattresses in terms of the durability and useful life of the mattress.

If you purchase a mattress that is too firm for you then a topper can certainly be a good way to add some additional softness and pressure relief that you may need as an alternative to returning the mattress for a refund and choosing a different mattress.

While there is always some risk and uncertainty involved in adding a topper if you haven’t tested the combination in person because the specifics of the mattress itself along with your own body type, sleeping position, and preferences can affect which specific topper would be a suitable choice on any specific mattress … if you do decide to add a separate topper to a mattress then there is more information about choosing a topper in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to which along with a conversation with a reliable supplier that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success. It also includes a link to a list of some of the better online sources for toppers I’m aware of and a link to the online suppliers that have good exchange/return policies as well.

If a mattress/topper combination is a good “match” for you in terms of "comfort and PPP then it also has the advantage of being able to replace just the topper without replacing the entire mattress if it softens or breaks down before the upper foam layers in the mattress (which is very likely because the upper layers of a sleeping system tend to soften or break down before the deeper layers) or if your needs or preferences change over time and a topper can also help extend the useful life of the mattress underneath it as well.

As you probably know from the guidelines here that are linked in the tutorial … I would avoid the major brands or any mattress that uses lower quality materials or where you aren’t able to find out the specifics of the materials in the mattress (see this article) and the chain stores or major retailers that specialize in them such as Macy’s and Mattress Firm. Denver mattress on the other hand makes some good quality/value choices although I would also avoid the major brands that they carry as well.

The better options or possibilities I’m aware of in and around the Denver/Boulder, CO areas (subject to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines I linked earlier in this reply) are listed in post #2 here.

Phoenix

hey thanks Phoenix!! great information I’ll check out some of the local retailers for a look/see/feel
thanks again for such great information & insight!
Georgia

Hi gyoung,

I’m looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding … and of course any other comments or questions that you may have along the way that I or any of the other knowledgeable members of the site can help with.

Phoenix