You are talking more about zoning rather than actual firmness (firmer under some parts of the body and softer under others) which can certainly have an affect on neutral spine alignment. All mattresses are a combination of firm (deeper layers) and soft (the thickness and softness of the upper layers). Outside of zoning, in some cases a firmer support core can help and in others thinner comfort layers can help. It all depends on how evenly you sink into a mattress. Post #4 here has some ideas along the lines you mentioned about adding a form of zoning in the context of helping a mattress that is sagging or too soft in one way or another (either support layers or comfort layers) that may be helpful.
Well, this new mattress has to go I think. I tried using a folded up wool blanket under the lower 2/3 of me, and it did stop me sinking into the mattress quite as much, but didn’t help with the pain in the morning, which woke me at 6am. It’s getting to the point now where I’m dreading to go to bed, which is not the point of a new mattress!
I’ve been doing some reading about UK mattresses v North American ones, because I’m used to the UK ones, and there is certainly a lot less padding in UK mattresses, and they are also made to be flipped both ways most of the time. There is a hotel chain that I’ve always found comfortable that uses Hypnos mattresses
(http://www.mynextmattress.co.uk/hypnos-westbourne-supreme-mattress)
and that seems to be a firm mattress with no foam layers. So I think that is what I’m going to look for. I doubt I’ll find anything in Leons that totally fits - I think everything they do has foam in there somewhere, and can’t be flipped both ways. I rather wish I’d made this investment in the UK rather than Canada, where I was more familiar… I didn’t realise it would be so different!
You said that the mattress we bought had 5" of foam, but side sleepers only need 2-4", so I think that’s the issue, and it also worries me from the longevity point of view.
I quite like the bounce of springs… something that seems to be very non-North American lol!
OK I’ve been doing research based on the info on the Leons website, looking at firm mattresses in our price range. It looks like I have 3 options…
Kingsdown Carver (2.5" foam)
Simmons Pearl (1.5" foam)
Simmons Wheaton (2 3/8" foam) - this one is a little outside our budget
All of these also mention a ‘pad’ layer but don’t say what this is.
I was really surprised looking at the quantity of foam in mattresses described as ‘firm’, particularly given that the UK mattresses I was looking at don’t really have any foam in them.
Several of the Sealy ones were really surprising - firm mattress but with 9" of foam in it! It does seem likely that over time this foam is going to alter, and 9" is a lot of room for alteration.
I think our current mattress is going back, I just need to go and try out these particular mattresses and see which suits best. If you have any thoughts on any of these I’d gratefully hear them… thanks again for the help so far
This is the type of unknown foam (along with any other “suspect” materials) that I would try to minimize. Based on the limited specs you provided … the only one I would consider either by itself or as the base mattress for a topper would be the Pearl but this would depend on the rest of the layers and components that made up the rest of the mattress and/or on your ability to find out the quality/density of the “suspect” foam.
The Simmons Pearl also includes a layer of Bountyfil which is a quilting fiber that will also compress and contribute to impressions over time.
The Kingsdown Carver includes 22oz silk and Hollo(fill) fibers which will do the same.
The Simmons Wheaton mentions Cashmere fibers but doesn’t say if there is a tiny amount in the cover fabric or if this is a blend with synthetic fibers used in the quilting. It also has 1/2 of firm foam in addition to what you listed.
The less polyurethane foam or fibers that you can’t identify above the springs the better.
Thanks again for the advice. We’re going to try and go along to Leons either tomorrow or early next week to try out some of those, and see what we think. I’m certainly not going to rush into anything, but unfortunately the selection is a bit limited - our fault for not doing enough research to start with. It has definitely helped finding the forum, and reading your advice. At least I feel a bit more armed with information now.
I just hope we can find something that will work… I did get one good nights sleep from the now-useless new mattress so hopefully a firmer one, with less foam, will work out.
I don’t think there is any “fault” in any of this … it’s just the type of choices that so many people make because there are so few sources of meaningful information in the industry … at least that are easy to find in all the “noise” of marketing claims and misleading information. As you mentioned at least you are in a position of being able to make more informed and “best possible” choices even if you are a little more limited in what you have available.
If you choose either a mattress that you know has good quality materials that works well by itself or choose a mattress that has the least possible low quality or unidentified foam (which will likely be too firm) and then add a good quality topper to customize your own comfort layer, then either way you have much higher odds of ending up with a better sleeping system than you would have chosen otherwise and that’s a lot better than the alternative where the same cycle could end up repeating.
If you do choose a “base mattress” that needs a topper (because there are no mattresses available that you can verify that the comfort layers are good quality) then sleeping on it (perhaps uncomfortably) for a short while can help you identify the type of topper that would work best with it using the information in post #2 here and the posts it links to as a guideline.
I think you will be fine not only now but even more so the next time you need a new mattress (or topper) as well
OK so we went back to Leons, and the woman we spoke to was very friendly and helpful. Downside is we have to keep the mattress for 30 days - that’s how long it might take to adjust, they say, but I’m not sleeping on the mattress any more so it’s a bit meaningless!
They didn’t have either of the low-foam models I wanted to try - though she said their Dartmouth store might have them so we might be taking a trip out there to see. The one we tried that seemed best of what they had was the Kingsdown Alumni (who comes up with these names).
Product Details: Quilting:
¾" High Density Foam and 22oz. Silk & Hollo Fibre
Comfort Layers:
½" Posturized BluTek Gel Visco
1" Solid Firm Foam
Flexatron Support Pad
Innerspring:
Pocket Coil (Twice Tempered)
Concentrated Centre Third
Edge System:
Airflow Surround Foam Encasement
I’m still really wary… I wish I could get an old school mattress with no fancy foam in it! But I’m guessing this will be better than what we have? I plan to go back and lie on it for at least half an hour reading a book to see how that goes, but I’d appreciate your thoughts on the various layers, and the brand if you have any knowledge of it? (‘the cadillac of mattresses’ according to the salesperson. I should have told them not to bother with all the sales speak!)
I don’t pay much attention to brand because a mattress is only as good as it’s construction and the quality of the layers inside it but Kingsdown is one of the 15 largest manufacturers in North America so they are a well known brand even though they are not very transparent about the quality of the materials they use and they usually aren’t particularly good value compared to other similar mattresses.
The specs you listed show only the 3/4" of polyfoam and some mostly synthetic fibers (hollo fiber) in the quilting and then another inch of firmer polyfoam and 1/2" of gel memory foam in the comfort layers so in the overall scheme of things this isn’t too bad (it’s still more unknown foam and fiber than I would normally choose but it’s less than you would normally find in most mainstream mattresses). This would probably make a good base mattress for a topper.
The coil isn’t usually the weak link of a mattress but a zoned pocket coil can make a good choice for an innerspring. They also don’t mention the density of the polyfoam they use to surround the innerspring. Overall though this would be the general type of mattress I would be looking for in a situation like yours to minimize the amount of “suspect” materials in the mattress.
That’s probably a good idea and I would also use the testing guidelines to test it in all your sleeping positions. I would keep in mind that when you are looking for a mattress/topper combination (or there’s a good possibility that you may need a topper) that the mattress part would be much firmer than you are comfortable with. The ideal would be to test the mattress and a topper at the same time. If the mattress by itself provides you with good PPP without a topper then that would be a bonus.
Hi Phoenix, thanks so much for the reply. I really appreciate the time you take to help people in their hunt for a good mattress!
The Kingsdown one we looked at seemed like it might be OK without a topper, but I think when I go and lie on it for a longer length of time that’ll give me more info on that. It’s unfortunate it’s not a brand you recommend, but then none of the brands I have to choose from are ones you recommend, so I’m a bit stuck there!
Ideally I’d prefer one with springier springs, but that doesn’t seem to be common here, it’s more the foam that is used to provide cushioning etc.
Thanks again, and if we do need a topper I’ll definitely be back to research them on here
I actually don’t recommend any specific brands … only mattresses that use good quality materials that are disclosed no matter which manufacturer’s name is on the label. Some manufacturers are better than others though at disclosing the quality of their materials but this also depends on the specifics of the mattress, the store that is selling it, and the knowledge and experience of the retailer more as much as the brand itself.
Unfortunately though (as you mentioned) … if an original purchase is made at a store where none of the manufacturers disclose the quality of the materials in it and you are limited in an exchange to what they have available … then the best you can do is minimize any questionable or unknown materials and then add a topper if that is necessary. Some “cheap” mattresses with a good quality topper can be a much more suitable and better quality and value choice than a much more costly mattress that uses lower quality materials in the comfort layers of the mattress.
I’m looking forward to hearing about what you end up choosing and the forum is always available if you need to do any “fine tuning”.
I would always keep in mind that a choice that is too firm is always easier to correct with a topper than a choice that is too soft which requires the removal or replacement of layers rather than adding something on top of them.
Hi again!
I spent over an hour in Leons today and narrowed things down to 2 options. Both are Kingsdown, one was the firmest they have in stock, the other was a softer one which I thought was softer due to springier coils rather than anything else, but having looked up online I now see it has 4" of foam in its ‘comfort layer’. I guess this is another one to be avoided? I really liked the springier feel, but I guess I’m setting myself up for a fall with that much foam… It’s funny because I did lots of mattress poking and prodding as well as lying on them in the shop and I was sure there wasn’t as much foam as that, and I was also sure that I was sinking down to the springy coils (which was fine with me because they were springy) which is not something I’m doing on our current mattress (the one I’m out to replace).
Quilting:
½" High Density Foam Plus ½" Gel High Density Foam and 22oz. Silk & Hollo Fibre
Comfort Layers: 4" Convoluted Foam
Insulator Pad
Flexatron Support Pad
Innerspring:
Pocket Coil (Twice Tempered)
So I may have to go with the firmest option, although I didn’t find it as comfortable. So I’m here to ask a general topper question. I’m not really a big fan of foam, or latex, I prefer more natural materials. Are there any options that might be good to add to a firm mattress to give it a bit more of a comfort feel without the foam sinking issues I was having with the previous mattress? I had read a bit on here about wool toppers, but I don’t know if there are any other fibre options.
And a side note… why are sprung mattresses so often not springy any more? I liked the springy feel lol.
The mattress you listed has over 5" of “questionable” materials plus some fiber in the comfort layers as well. Worse yet it’s convoluted which is less durable than a solid layer of foam. This is exactly the type of construction that I would avoid unless you are able to find out the density/quality of the foam layers.
You would be much better off with a mattress that minimized the use of these types of materials and then adding a high quality topper where you can control the quality of the top layers of your sleeping system.
Some of the other mattresses you’ve mentioned earlier in this thread would be much better choices in terms of minimizing questionable or lower quality layers.
Natural and synthetic fibers will compress more than good quality foam because they are less resilient and will compress more over time. They are good for more “point specific” relief of pressure points and for improving the breathability of the surface of the mattress but they are not as good at overall pressure relief as foam materials. there is more about wool toppers in post #3 here and more about some of the different fibers in toppers in post #10 here. If you are having foam “sinking” issues then a firmer foam may be the answer. Memory foam also has more of an “in the mattress” feel than faster response foams like polyfoam and latex which have a more “on the mattress” feel. The type of foam doesn’t matter and is really a personal preference. No matter which type you prefer though choosing higher quality will make sure it doesn’t soften or break down too quickly. 4 lbs or greater with memory foam, 1.8 lbs or higher for polyfoam (1.5 lbs used with caution), or any type of latex (which is all a durable material) are all good choices.
Many of them still are … it depends on the type of innerspring and on the design of the mattress. You probably didn’t try some of the “more springy” ones (I’m guessing you mean the types of innersprings that have a helical wire such as Bonnel coils or Offset coils).
Thanks for the reply. I guess the only springy mattress that I’ve tried was that other Kingsdown I mentioned, the one with all the convoluted foam in it. Which, given your comments, I think I will have to disregard.
I discovered something else interesting about the whole mattress buying experience just now. When I went in yesterday to ask about the exchange process, my order was checked on their system and the woman I was dealing with said we’d bought a ‘Silver Belle’ mattress. I didn’t think that was quite the name we had bought, but wasn’t sure so didn’t say anything. However because the price is a bit cheaper now and they do a price guarantee I was doing some research on their website this morning, and it would appear they delivered the wrong mattress! The one we tried in store was a Silver Moss, and the one we were delivered was a Silver Belle. Granted, looking at the numbers there is not a lot of difference between the two component-wise, but I’m pretty unimpressed!
It occurred to me that maybe they’d just give us a refund now, to make up for the error, but I think this is probably wishful thinking given that I only discovered the error 30 days after it was delivered.
This process is hard enough without discovering you’ve been sold a different mattress than you expected
It appears that you’ve solved the mystery of why your mattress felt different when you received it than when you were testing it in the store.
The Silver Moss has more foam and softer foam than the Silver Belle (accounting for the difference in price as well as the difference in “feel” and performance) although both of them have far too much unknown foam in the comfort layers and would have the risk of early softening and breakdown. You would at least have an argument for replacing the mattress for the one you purchased (assuming that the one you meant to purchase is listed on your receipt) and while this may be more comfortable for you … it won’t solve the problem that there is too much lower quality foam in the comfort layers and the earlier loss of comfort and support that this can lead to.
At the very least I would pursue the argument that you should be able to start from the beginning again and that they should be willing to exchange the mattress for the one you originally ordered and start your exchange period from the beginning again. It may be better to sleep comfortably for a shorter period of time because the mattress is more suitable for your body type and sleeping positions even though there is more foam and softer foam (which is more likely to soften over time) than the mattress you have now.
I would also pursue the possibility of a refund even though this is against their policy because you won’t know if they are willing to make an exception until you try. This would be the “ideal” scenario if it was possible.
The “best” option if you are limited to an exchange (and I would insist at a minimum that the exchange period starts all over again) would be to choose a mattress with much less questionable materials in the comfort layers and then add a good quality topper even though this too would have some uncertainty and risk involved in terms of choosing the most suitable topper for the mattress you choose. There may not be any mattresses in the store where the comfort layers are disclosed or good quality. The benefit of doing this is that if you choose a suitable topper it will help improve the durability of the materials in the top layers of your mattress (the topper would be subject to most of the compression forces instead of the foam in the top layers of the mattress) and it’s also easier to replace just a topper than an entire mattress and once you know the type of topper that works best for you then you would also know what to replace it with when the time comes that it needs replacing.
Just to give an update on where we are in our mattress saga! I went back to Leons and they weren’t up for giving us a refund (no surprise there). I think they would have exchanged the Silver Belle for the Silver Moss that we’d originally wanted, but the problem was it was even softer and I didn’t think that was going to solve the problem - as you said, still far too much foam.
So we drove 1hr down the road to a bigger Leons store to try out another couple of options, and we’ve decided to go for the Simmons Pearl. It’s quite firm, without too much foam, and you feel like you’re being supported by the coils which I like. The other option was the Kingsdown Congress, which was much more like a basic UK bed with springy springs and a squashy layer on top. I did like it, but it was quite a bit cheaper (with no refund on the difference) and it did feel like it wouldn’t last as long. So I’ve phoned today and said I’d like the Simmons, so we’ll see how that goes.
The trip to the other showroom was interesting… When we went in and over to the mattress section we were accosted by a salesman almost straight away - no surprise there. I had to explain our story, which he took a bit of time to grasp, I guess it doesn’t happen often. But the funny part was when I explained that we had the Silver Belle and I couldn’t sleep on it without waking up in pain. He looked at me like I’d said I was the President of the USA… and then when I said the Silver Belle had too much foam he looked at me like I was an alien! I think he even said something along the lines of ‘too much foam…? I just don’t understand that…’ I didn’t want to launch into a big thing about how I’d read up on all the mattresses and how the Silver Belle has 6"+ of foam in it, which to me is quite a lot, because I couldn’t be bothered. It was a first hand education in how little mattress salespeople know about their mattresses though.
He did manage to redeem himself slightly later on, when we were trying out the Simmons, because he came over and said that it was a good mattress, and the pocket coils were good, and because there wasn’t much foam it meant that the coils could do their job, unlike other beds which had so much foam the coils didn’t have much to do. Yes. That was my point before! shakes head
Anyway, it’ll probably be a week or two before the replacement mattress arrives. I really hope I can sleep on it, otherwise we’re a bit stuck!
Hi again, I just wanted to pop back and let you know how things are going with the mattress exchange. It took a couple of weeks for Leons to get the mattress to us from one of their other stores. We swapped them over, and that night I (rather nervously) went to bed. I was pretty upset to wake up with a sore back! However I remembered with the other mattress I slept fine the first night and it was sore from then on, so I hoped the mattress just needed to soften a bit.
And thankfully, it did :cheer: I slept fine on it the next night, and have no problems since then and that’s been almost a month. What a relief!
The mattress we got was a Simmons Pearl. It is a pocket coil mattress, with just over an inch of foam on top. For me, that still feels like quite a lot of foam It’s definitely not too firm, so we don’t need to hunt for a mattress topper. The amount of foam there is means I sink into it a little bit and the coils do the rest.
So at last, good night’s sleep! Thanks to Phoenix and this forum for all the information that got us to the right mattress in the end.
That’s great news … and thanks for sharing the results of your exchange with the forum.
As you mentioned … with thinner foam layers the pocket coils will provide much of the contouring and pressure relief and there is less foam in your mattress to soften and break down so it seems to me that you made the best of a difficult situation.
It’s definitely not too firm, so we don’t need to hunt for a mattress topper. The amount of foam there is means I sink into it a little bit and the coils do the rest.