Youāve been testing some very nice mattresses ā¦ and Iām impressed too at the accuracy of your feedback! You really have zoned in on and recognized the many differences in ILD, layer thicknesses, and progressions.
As you mentioned ā¦ the Pamper with the 2" topper would be a more pure differential construction with 3" of soft over a firm core with no ātransitionā layer. The Nature is also tending towards differential with only a 1" transition layer and in effect this meant that your top 3" were too firm overall. Itās too bad that the Nutrition wasnāt available as I think it may have been very close with the extra inch of 28 ILD in the middle.
Given your feedback (including with the savvy rest) and the slightly changing preferences from the beginning to now as you became more accustomed to the idea of a softer thicker comfort layer ā¦ Iām thinking (ironically) that the Nutrition is the construction I would be shooting for. While I certainly understand how nice the 14 feels, the Beautiful also felt very good to you with 3" of 19 ILD on top in terms of pressure relief and so did 3" of softer talalay with the savvy rest so Iād be tending towards 19 over 14 for that reason.
Your ācritical zoneā seems to be about 3" or less. In other words ā¦ with 3" of soft latex (2" 14 and 1" 19) in the pamper you werenāt feeling the firmer 40 ILD core layer as a āhardā layer underneath. For this reason I would try to avoid more than 3" of latex of 24 or less for the sake of alignment. In other words I would want the 4th inch to be in a firmer range of 28 or higher. This means that
2.0" 14 ILD
2.0" 24 ILD
5.5" 40 ILD
Would probably be too much soft (4"). It would likely still allow your hips to sink in too far.
2.0" 14 ILD
2.0" 28 ILD
5.5" 40 ILD
Now the middle layer is more in a transition ILD range and more supportive in terms of keeping your hips up which is important. My only concern here would be in the difference between the 14 and the 28 which may not be a gradual enough transition which could lead to feeling the āfirmnessā of the 28 more. Iād probably tend towards 2" of 19 on top ā¦ which would bring us to the Nutrition construction. This would be my preference of the two that included the 2" of 14 ILD but I would be just a little worried that 2" of 14 would allow me to feel the 28 a little more than I would want.
I read the entire thread to look at all your preferences in each testing experience relative to what else you tried that day. Then I laid down and closed my eyes and tried to āfeelā the different constructions as if I was you. My āgutā and my instinct to go slightly firmer in the face of uncertainty told me that 19 was likely ābetterā way to go. You have had enough experience and are looking at your results accurately enough that I would trust your instinct over my gut though
As far as the ticking and the protector ā¦ I would do the same.
Thanks Phoenix for your continued helpful feedback. So I found the PLB Nutrition in LA. Relative to the Nature, the Nutrition has 1" more of 28 ILD in the middle layer sandwiched between 2" 19 ILD and 6" 36 ILD. I thought that this was going to be the āticketā since I was seeking the same hip/lumbar support provided by the Nature with more pressure relief under the shoulders. Iām glad I tested it, and it just goes to show how very minor differences in construction can result in meaningful changes in feel and support. While lying on my back, my hips sank down just a little too much. Surprisingly, I did not feel materially better pressure relief under the shoulders so, all said, this might have been a step down from the Nature which provided better hip support. My spouse is far less interested in the mattress search but found she sank down too much but liked it generally. The store also had the Pamper plus Topper and we both agreed we were in mattress heaven. The combo we think would work:
2" 14 ILD
1" 19 ILD (or, alternatively, 22 or 24 ILD)
5.5" 40 ILD (blended talalay or dunlop)
There must be one or few things going on. Either the 40 ILD base is providing materially better hip support for me, or the 3" comfort layer (instead of 4") is also somehow helping to support my hips. The 3" combo of 14 and 19 ILD are also providing significantly better pressure relief under my shoulders. Iāve come to believe that my mild curvature of the spine (kyphosis) has rendered firmer support layers less pressure relieving for my mid-upper back and shoulders. My wife loved this mattress and would have bought it on the spot. She felt that it provided better support (did not sink down) but a luxurious soft feel on top.
In constructing a DIY mattress that captures the spirit of what we tried, I have a few questions on which Iād appreciate your guidance:
Comfort layer. I agree with your post above in which you caution against more than 3" of softer foam (24 ILD or less). This is consistent with my field testing. Given that we were testing a PLB 2" 14 ILD topper (with non-qulted ticking), must I compensate for this when just adding the 2" 14 ILD raw layer inside the DIY mattress cover? Iām also leaning towards a stretchy non-quilted zippered cover. Assuming weād like to replicate the pamper plus 2" 14 ILD topper, could I just order 2" 14 ILD, 1" 19 ILD and 5.5" 40 ILD and expect a comparable feel?
Support layer. Given that we are leaning towards differential construction with a big ILD transition, would there be any material benefit from going with L.I. or Radium blended Talalay versus 100% natural dunlop for the core support layer? The OMI Lago (see comment below) has a dunlop support core with talalay on top whereas the PLB is Talalay top to bottom.
Middle layer. Part of me says why mess with perfection and just go with 1" 19 ILDā¦just like the Pamper. Alternatively, we could try 1" of 22 or 24 ILD. Iād hesitate to go all the way to 28 ILD. As a reference point, the OMI Lago with 3.5" 24 ILD over 6" of 40 ILD is definitely in the zone of what we like. I tried it again today just to try to keep things straight in my mind and it provided good support through the hips and decent pressure relief. The Terra provided better pressure relief through the shoulders but not enough support in the hips/lumbar. If I were to stray from the exact layering in the Pamper plus 2" Topper it would like be in this middle layer. I would probably stick with 1" as anything north of 3" (in aggregate comfort layer) has been challenging to this point (with the exception of the OMI Lago). The 19 ILD is probably helping me to not bottom out on the top 2" 14 ILD (as I might if it were something firmer like 28 ILD). I do wonder what changes we could expect if we were to go with 22 or 24 ILD, and whether this would be a wise move. On the plus side, it would provide some hedge if, after a few weeks of trial, we decided to change from 14 ILD to 19-24 ILD for the entire comfort layer. On the other hand, I know how minute tweaks can result in a totally different feel. Thoughts?
I realize there are two other ways to go. Custom Sleep Design being one, or tweaking the bottom layer so that it was less than ~6" of 40 ILD and instead add a progressive construction with some portion of 40 ILD and some portion of 32 ILD (or thereabouts) and then increasing the ILD of the top layer marginally from 14 to 19-24 ILD. The challenge with either of these approaches, is that Iāll never be able to field test either one. If I was in CT, I could experience the custom design and probably go in that directionā¦but I live in LA. At one point, you had suggestion 2" 24, 3" 28-32 and 4" 40 ILDā¦and I bet that is very close to what Iāve been gravitating towards.
I think I am pretty much there but would like to run this by you for any final thoughts. Iāve gone on 8 separate field tests having tried custom comfort, eletropedic, savvy rest, OMI, pure latex bliss and I must admit that it was not until the 7th trip that I felt I truly started to distinguish the nuances of hip, lumbar and shoulder support and pressure relief. Thanks for steering me in the right direction and for the wonderful education!
What is likely happening with the Nutrition that is different than the Nature is that with an extra inch of 28 ILD ā¦ the 5th inch down is softer and takes up more of the compression than with the Nature where the 5th inch is 36 ILD. The firmer 5th inch would āforceā the upper layers to compress slightly more. This would result in either very similar pressure relief or in some cases better pressure relief depending on where inside the mattress the part of the body that was experiencing pressure came to rest. It would also be more supportive than having a 5th inch at a lower ILD and a slightly thicker mattress overall.
I certainly agree with you that having a 40 ILD support layer and a differential construction seems to be much closer than a progressive construction and that your āeffectiveā comfort layer is the top 3" of the mattress. Using more soft latex than this would decrease support as the heavier parts of the body would have further to travel before they were āstoppedā by the firmer layers underneath while the lighter parts would still be āstoppedā above the support layer. So as you mentioned the better support came from both the ILD of the layer immediately below the top 3" and from the fact that the comfort layer was thinner ā¦ but still within the critical thickness range that seems to work best for you). This type of differential construction is for many people very comfortable as it is a very pleasing combination of soft and firm that can work very well. The trick here is that you are not āgoing throughā the 3" and feeling the very firm layer underneath too quickly. A heavier person would feel more of the 40 ILD layer and for them it may not be so comfortable and they may need to āfirm upā or āthicken upā the upper layers to prevent an uncomfortable transition.
So I would tend to work towards a similar construction with similar ILDās. The only difference may be that 3" of 19 may need to be a special order (soft is usually in the low 20ās for DIY orders). An āexactā duplicate of 2" of 14 and 1" of 19 would normally be outside the range of āstandardā layer thicknesses and ILDās in a DIY mattress and would be a ācustom buildā which could increase the cost or restrict the layer exchange possibilities over a DIY construction.
An example of a progressive construction equivalent would use 2" of 19 ILD Talalay over a 6" layer of 24 ILD Dunlop.
The very very rough and simplified math of this would be as follows ā¦
If a 6" layer of Dunlop takes 24 lbs to compress it 1.5" (25%), then using a linear progression rate from 0" to 1.5" it would take about 16 lbs to compress it only 1". This would give you a top 3" of roughly the same ILD as the talalay topper over the Pamper.
If the 5.5" talalay layer underneath the Pamper āblueprintā takes 40 lbs to compress 1.4" (25%) ā¦ then compressing the 6" of 24 ILD Dunlop underneath it another 1.4" (for a total of 2.4") would take another 42 lbs (assuming a compression modulus of 4.0 and assuming that the compression rate from 1" to 2.4" of compression is linear). This means that you would āin effectā have a very similar top 3" and a very similar top 4.4" and any compression beyond that would be firmer with the 2" 19 ILD talalay over 6" of 24 ILD Dunlop than it would with the Pamper. Bear in mind that the different materials and the other variables involved would not result in the exact same feel but it would be close in terms of both pressure relief and support.
If you were to use a 2" layer of 19 ILD talalay over a 5.5" talalay core of the same 24 ILD ā¦ your top 3" would be very very slightly firmer (insignificant) but the next 1.4" of compression would only be an additional 31 lbs (not as firm as the Dunlop) and the difference would become more with deeper compression. This is using a Talalay compression modulus of 3 as opposed to 4 for Dunlop.
A 2" layer of 19 ILD talalay over 5.5" of 32 ILD talalay would give you a firmer top 3" (the top inch of the talalay core would be about 23 ILD) and the next 1.4" would be about 41. This would be roughly the same in the support core but slightly firmer in the top 3" comfort layer.
I personally would tend towards a close equivalent to the known construction which would be 3" of 19 ILD over 5.5" of firm or extra firm talalay (I would tend towards a 3" layer of 19 ILD over a 3" layer of firm over a 3" layer of extra firm in a 3x3 construction). This comfort layer is a little firmer than 2" of 14 ILD and an inch of 19 ILD but is the closest equivalent in a single ILD 3" layer and I tend to err very slightly on the firm side when in doubt.
As you can see ā¦ there are many ways to get to a similar end using different layers, ILD,s and layer thicknesses. Bear in mind too that the ticking will also play a role and with these duplicates I would use a stretchy unquilted cover or if you go with a wool quilted cover you would need to fine tune the layering to take this into account.
To your specific questions ā¦
You could order this but this would take you out of the realm of a DIY construction which uses standardized layer thicknesses and standardized ILDās. This would be more of a complete custom build which would generally increase the cost. You would be getting into a fire barrier used without wool and the prototypes they have tested and can build within.
The biggest difference between Talalay and Dunlop is in the support factor as outlined earlier in this post. Different types of latex used in the comfort or support layers of the mattress will certainly affect both the feel and progressive perormance of the mattress. Bear in mind too that there are different manufacturers of Dunlop so I have only used a compression modulus (support factor) of 4 to illustrate the differences. This number is not exact between different types and manufacturers of Dunlop.
I would also stick with what you have tested for and wouldnāt go much firmer than 19 equivalent in the top 3" (however it was made up). While 3" of 19 is a little firmer than what you tested with the topper over the pamper ā¦ it wouldnāt be much. Going slightly firmer may help alignment more ā¦ particularly with stomach sleeping. Did your spouse test the topper over the Pamper on her stomach for a while (10 or 15 minutes completely relaxed)? My biggest concern would that for her the comfort layer was soft and thick enough to allow her hips to sink in a little too far on her stomach even though it would feel great on her side.
This was a little complex and āmathematicalā post but hopefully it helped in pointing to how differences from the Pamper/topper prototype and material differences can alter how the final product performs. The closer you can get to the actual prototype you tested within the limits of a DIY construction ā¦ the closer to a similar performance and feel you will be. āTranslationsā into different layering or materials can also get close (or may even be an improvement) but because translations can be so complex and have so many variables, the closer to the ābestā prototype you can get the more confidence you can have that it will be similar in real life.
Thatās downright scaryā¦I tried a similar combination at electopedic (see post #6) but the core was 24 ILD Talalay instead of Dunlop. I understand the Dunlop would be slightly firmer but I jack-knifed on that bed.
OK, I understand this math. You are trying to back into the Dunlop ILD rating that would result in ~14-16 ILD for the top 1" of the core layer so that, when combined with a 2" 14 ILD topper, would approximate 16-19 ILD for the top 3" comfort layer. Thanks for the educationā¦I see a ālatex compression calculatorā in this forumās future!
You lost me. Understanding the math above would be helpful. Iām confused starting with āunderneath itāā¦underneath what?
Thatās interesting because that reminds me that I liked the 2" 19 ILD over 5.5" 32 ILD over 2" 19 ILD at Custom Comfort and Electropedic which both carried this construction. How would the addition of this bottom 2" of 19 ILD affect the pressure relief/support versus if it were not included in the design?
Perhaps Iāll go back to Savvy Rest and try a 3 layer design againā¦although I think there top layer is 20-24 ILD. It seems that the only online retailer that would allow me to duplicate the Pamper plus Topper exactly is Sleep Like a Bear based on what is advertised on the various retailer websitesā¦although Iāll contact some of your sponsors to see if they can offer the layers.
Phoenix, in practice, have you experimented with a few different constructions (varying the ILDs and thicknessses of the layers) that arrive at the same math to see if they feel comparable? Iād be interested in your feedback.
Your questions give me a chance to get into another rather technical and analytical post ā¦ but the stuff at the end is probably the most important and brings the technical stuff back closer to real life
The āunderneathā meant the 6" of 24 ILD dunlop underneath the 2" of 19 ILD talalay in the alternative construction. I was still comparing the 2" of 19 ILD Talalay over 6" of 24 ILD dunlop to the Pamper + topper āclose equivalentā (3" 19 ILD over 5.5" of 40 ILD talalay) but looking at the comparable firmness levels deeper into the mattresses as the two mattresses were compressed more deeply.
It would take 40 lbs of pressure to compress the 40 ILD talalay layer in the Pamper + topper equivalent to 25% of its thickness (1.4"). The equivalent depth of compression on the alternative 2" talalay over dunlop construction would need to compress the Dunlop another 1.4" more than the inch we have already āusedā to add to the comfort layer. So I was looking at the theoretical ILD of each mattress when it was compressed 4.4". This would be 3" of 19 ILD talalay + 1.4" of 40 ILD talalay on the pamper equivalent. It would be 2" of 19 ILD talalay and 2.4" of 24 ILD dunlop on the alternative construction. The Dunlop would need to compress 2.4" in other words to get to the same depth of compression as the pamper equivalent would have if the 40 ILD talalay compressed 1.4".
Compressing the top inch of the dunlop was based on a āstraight lineā progressive compression rate from zero compression to its 25% ILD rating of 24 @ 1.5" compression. Since we were looking at the relative ILD @ 1" of compression ā¦ this would be 1/1.5 x 24 = 16 ILD.
Going deeper into the Dunlop as it continues to compress ā¦ I looked at the ILD @ 1.5" (24) and then using a compression modulus of 4, I calculated the ILD @ 65% (3.9") which would be 96 ILD (compression modulus is the ratio between 25% compression and 65% compression). This means that it would take 72 lbs of extra pressure (96 - 24) to compress the Dunlop an additional 2.4" (3.9 - 1.5). Assuming that this was also a linear compression rate, then each additional inch of compression beyond 1.5" would take 30 lbs (72 / 2.4). So to compress the Dunlop to 2.4" (the equivalent in this construction of the 40 ILD talalay in the pamper + topper compressing 1.4"), it would take 24 + (.9/2.4 x 72) = 51 lbs. (I just realized that the previous math was wrong and I used 41 lbs in the last post because I used .9/3.9 instead of .9/2.4).
So with 3" of 19 ILD talalay over 5.5" of 40 ILD Talalay ā¦ the ILD of the top 3" would be 19. The next 1.4" (25% of the support core) would have an ILD of 40.
With the 2" of Talalay over 6" of Dunlop ā¦ the top 3" of the mattress would have roughly the same effective ILD (2" of 19 + 1" of 16). The next 1.4 " would be firmer (51 ILD corrected from 41 ILD in the previous calculation) and as you sank even deeper into both mattresses the firmness of the 2" talalay over 6" dunlop version would increase even faster than the 3" talalay over 5.5" talalay version.
THIS IS IMPORTANT
There are several assumptions in these calculations which I used to be able to illustrate how different constructions could āget toā similar performance. In this example, the two mattresses were roughly the same in the top 3" but the second option would be firmer in its āsupportā performance. It would āstopā the hips sooner.
These assumptions and calculations are not accurate for several reasons. First the compression modulus I used in each case is roughly correct but both Talalay and Dunlop have variable compression moduli depending on the density and ILD of the material and it is not consistent from manufacturer to manufacturer or even from ILD to ILD. Second, compression modulus is also not ālinearā and is actually a curve. Third and most important ā¦ the actual pressure applied to each area of a mattress is a function of weight applied over a certain surface area and with the infinite variations in the shape of the human body ā¦ and the variance in surface area with increasing depth of compression for each person ā¦ the actual compression of the mattress in each area of a body and the relative depth of compression to keep the spine in alignment varies with each person. The different layers also have an āorder of compressionā and the compression of each layer is not independent of the other layers. The layers all compress in a constantly varying ratio.
While in theory there would likely be an algorithm which could do these calculations ā¦ it would still not be as accurate as actual testing because even if the compression modulus and other specs of each layer was known and the performance curve of each spec could be plotted (compression modulus is only one variable and things like hysteresis would also have to be included), it would still not take into account the variables of the person. In addition to this, at this level of analysis, subjective factors can also overwhelm objective performance and these subjective factors can change over time and with mood, stress, surroundings, and many other things.
So the reason I wanted to go into so much detail was mainly to show how different layering schemes and materials can āduplicateā one area of a mattress but adjust other areas in several directions and to show why sometimes some seemingly very different constructions can āworkā for the same person. I would never suggest that ārough mathā like this could be used to actually choose a specific layering except by āpointing toā alterrnative possibilities. More than anything ā¦ I wanted to show why a little discussed spec like compression modulus (also called sag factor and comfort factor) can have just as big an influence on mattress performance as ILD and why ILD alone can be so misleading. This is also compounded by the fact that ILD is measured in different ways in different areas of the world and with different materials and by different manufacturers. There is no one consistent method that is used by all the different types of foam manufacturers.
In the end ā¦ I would stick as close to what I have tested that works as possible because even though alternatives may work well (or even better) ā¦ they are more of an unknown in terms of how they will perform in real life over the long term. We all have a wide range of mattresses that will work well and as long as we are āin the rangeā of our own unique tolerances to pressure and alignment, a mattress will work well. Going for the last degrees of āperfectionā can sometimes move us away from what would work best.
Yes. I did a LOT of lie on mattress testing (and still do to a lesser extent) to compare theory with performance in real life. I got very good at being able to discern small differences between different constructions and discerning where these differences likely came from. I also spent a lot of time looking at patterns to make sure that what I was explaining wasnāt just an anomaly particular to a certain mattress. Of course this is a constant learning curve because the variables are infinite and every mattress spec isnāt known but the overall "ādirectionsā of what certain changes are likely to create for different people are at least somewhat predictable in most cases.
Great post Phoenix. The math is thought-provoking. Iāve done even more testing and am at the point of gathering quotes.
I visited PJās Sleep Company which has an array of OMI latex mattresses as well as its own Dunlop-based brand. The visit reinforced my preference for the PLB 14 ILD topper over a firm layer (either Talalay or Dunlop). At PJās, they had a 6" Dunlop latex mattress rated 35-40 ILD as well as the same thickness in 30-35 ILD. They had both a 2" and 3" PLB topper. I was able to confirm that a 2" comfort layer in 14 ILD is not sufficiency thick over firm latex. The 3" topper was great, particularly over the 35-40 ILD rated Dunlop which provided slightly better hip support versus the one rated 30-35 ILD. The 2" topper over the 30-35 ILD rated core was OK, but not as good as the 3" topper over 35-40 ILD which felt comparable to the PLB Pamper plus 2" PLB topper (the Pamper itself having 1" 19 ILD over 6" 40 ILD Talalay).
The other great comparison I was able to make during this visit was quick evaluation of this bed versus the OMI Lago (3.5" 24 ILD Talalay over 6" 40 ILD Dunlop). This is a good mattress for me but does not provide the pressure reliief under the shoulders that the other option does in spades. The ultimate benefit of this trip confirmed that I would be able to simplify the mattress construction and just go with 2 layers (3" 14 ILD and 6" 38-40 ILD).
Today, I returned to Savvy Rest and although there are some good combinations, it has proven more complex/challenging to engineer 3, 3" layers with standard ILDs (soft, medium, firm) that provide good pressure relief under the shoulders without sacrificing good hip support. Most of these combinations are able to provide good hip support but lack the pressure relief qualities that the 14 ILD latex is able to accomplish for me. All in all, I think Iāve done adequate testing to make a safe decision.
I would appreciate your feedback on an appropriate foundationā¦better options that are available. Iāve looked at:
The latter is closer to the ideal for us (lower profile but still 7-9" of storage, but Iām not sure about the use of upholstered decks?
Actually the most ideal foundation would be one that simply disappears under the mattress with legs recessed under the frame, but I have been unable to find this minimalist optionā¦
Guidance on use of slats (i.e. Ikea) or something more solid (i.e. bunkie boards, or the āupholstered deckā in the Charels P. Rogers link above) would be helpful.
Our ultimate goals would be:
Approx 7" of space under the frame, but relatively lower profile
sturdy, no creaking (we have 3 year old twins that like to jump on our bed)
provide air circulation (if necessary) for the mattress and prevent moisture etc. - is a solid wood platform good/bad?
Iāve read that spacing for slats should not exceed a few inches
Any thoughts on some of the better foundation options that wonāt break the bank would be appreciated!
For members of this site who are seeking mattress stores in LA to field test, hereās a consolidated list of stores that I visited:
Urban Woods - Carries Savvy Rest (full options available with great service) in Van Nuys. Importantly, they have 3 entire Savvy Rest beds with 6 stacks (of 3 layers) so you can do side-by-side testing!
Beds Etc in Torrance- Carries the full lineup of Pure Latex Bliss (Sans Nutrition) plus two Electropedic choices
PJās Sleep Company - Carries full line of OMI plus 100% natural Dunlop PJās-branded mattresses with PLB toppers (2" and 3" as well as slightly firmer toppers as well as memory foam toppers). Many options here to explore, and one of the last stores I visited. - Fairfax between Beverly and Melrose.
HD Buttercup - Full line of OMI mattresses - Culver City. Excellent service and very knowledgeable.
Custom Comfort - Local factory/retailer offering its own all latex options - Beverly Hills. The most beautiful mattress store Iāve ever encountered and this shows up in their pricesā¦
Ergo Comfort - Pure Latex Bliss (pamper plus topper only), their own brands, OMI, Natura, Savvy Rest (unwilling to try different layer combos though). This was more of a traditional āretailā sales experience but they offer a good range of options.
If one wanted to make quicker work than me, Iād suggest visiting the top 3 listed above to cover not only a nice range of options, but each store offers a basis of comparison against other mattress brands or, in the case of Savvy Rest, considerable permutations of soft, medium and firm layers.
I have also contacted several local factories or suppliers now that I feel comfortable building a DIY mattress without buyerās remorse. If I did not go this route, Iād purchase a PLB Pamper plus Topper from Beds Etc. In this regard, Iāve contacted
Newport Bedding - they referred me to their factory which is a company called Good Bed Guys in OC. Although the first conversation went well and they seemed happy to quote me on specific criteria, they failed to deliver. I called 3 times to no avail.
Sams Mattress in Commerce. Good conversation with Sam and he seems willing to quote to my spec. He sells Coco 100% natural Dunlop but unfortuantely only in a mid ILD grade.
Flexus Comfort in Covina. Henry took my call on his cell on Veterans Day and asked me to email him my specific specs and heād follow up with a quote. This sounds promising.
Selectabed. Spoke to a very nice gentleman a few weeks ago and I will call them again. They seem eager to quote based on spec. He is also willing to fuse layers free of charge and cut them in the future per a layer exchange (didnāt inquire about this cost)
Norms Foam in Palms. Warehouse with stacks of Talalay. Sounds promising, right? Unfortunately, the prices were higher than one could get on the Web.
I have called several others referenced in this forum but not all of them carry latex or are willing to sell individual layers.
I hope this helps those seeking to test and purchase in Los Angeles.
First of all Iād like to thank you for all the feedback youāve given and sharing your journey with us ā¦ itās incredibly valuable. Los Angeles as you know is a very āmixed bagā of manufacturers and outlets and while there is some great value ā¦ there is also some ānot so goodā options and your experiences will certainly help many both in terms of testing options and for giving a clear idea on how mattress testing can narrow down an ideal layering scheme for individual needs and preferences.
I havenāt seen one of these in person and I donāt know of a manufacturer who is using them so I havenāt had any feedback on how well these would work. They donāt seem to have a good center support and it seems to be similar to the plastic top sleep science foundation in concept which had some issues with support and noise. I also prefer slats rather than a solid surface.
Iāve had good feedback on these from several manufacturers and they seem to be very good as long as they are made using a solid wood base.
Wood construction like this (not a great review on Amazon)
Iāve also heard good feedback on these and while Iāve also seen some of the negative reviews on Amazon (some of which talked about missing screws and using āpineā) ā¦ Arizona Premium and SleepEz have sold a lot of them and they seem to be good quality and work well. Iām not sure if the Amazon version is using cheaper wood but if you are at all concerned I would call Arizona Premium or SleepEz and see if they have had any issues.
This looks really nice as well but Iām not familiar with them. They also seem to be missing a center support and Iād also want to know what the upholstered decks were made of and how breathable it was.
I personally like slats or more breathable constructions than solid bases although there are some who believe that a solid base is fine as well. I just like the idea of air being able to circulate through the mattress and I also think it is better to prevent moisture being trapped in the bottom of the mattress and the ticking. I think ideally solid slats should be a maximum of 3" apart and preferably 2".
The two that I am most comfortable with in the lower cost foundation options are the Power Stack and the slatted wood versiflex.
Local mattress stores are often willing to part with an odd slatted base for a good price and I know many people have done well by making a few phone calls to check local outlets.
So I purchased latex layers and low-profile slat foundation from a local mattress factory in the Los Angeles area. I ended up purchase twin XL sized layers in 5.5" 40 ILD and 2.8" 15 ILD. These were placed in side a terrific mattress cover purchased from SleepEZ.com (the 4-way stretch, zippered non-quilted cover). This cover was simply a terrific surprise in terms of quality and feel as the illustration on sleepez does not do it justice.
I highly recommend this cover. I was concerned that the mattress might appear amoeba-like with 4 layers of foam inside a non-quilted cover. As you can see this is not the case; it has a very finished looked. I believe this cover rivals or surpasses that which is used by Pure Latex Bliss.
Youāve probably seen it but in case you havenāt ā¦ thereās a list of Los Angeles factory direct manufacturers in post #2 here. Los angeles and vicinity has more manufacturers in a smaller area than any other part of the US so you have a lot of choices
If you have seen this post previously ā¦ Iāve added a few additional manufacturers which may be close to you depending on what area of LA you are in.
It has been 4-5 months since I purchased my mattress from Flexus Comfort. Here are some pics below. The cover was purchased from SleepEZ and is of very high quality. The photo on the SleepEZ website is not the actual cover and does not do it justice. Itās called ā4 way stretch non-quiltedā. My concern buying a non-quilted cover was that the mattress would take on a unfitted appearance due to the 4 layers of Radium latex: 5.6", 40 ILD core and 2.8", 15 ILD comfort layers (purchased from Flexus Comfort). Weāre very satisfied with this setup and have Phoenix to thank for all his input.
The firmness of the 40 ILD provides the necessary support. When testing mattresses, I found it uncomfortable when my hips sink down such that my hips rotated backward, placing a strain on my trunk /back. We do not sink through the comfort layer and bottom out on the 40, not by any means. I weigh around 175 lbs so Iām sure weight and body shape will factor into this. I strongly suggest that folks try a 14-16 ILD comfort layerā¦the easiest way to do this is with the PureBliss toppers. I found that I needed a 3" comfort layer through trial and error. Good luck!
Thank you Mike (and Phoenix) for this awesome thread, and such great detail. Iāve been trolling this site (and any other I could find) for some time now, and this is the exact situation Iām going through currently. I loved the PLB pamper with the 2" topper and have been trying to figure out the best route to go for price, quality, and natural materials that could replicate that feel.
Iām in Torrance and have seen Beds Etc, but unfortunately theyāve gotten rid of all of their PLB mattresses nowā¦ I have a list of these more āDIYā type of places in Orange County that Iād like to visit now, but Iād like to get something asap. Iām halfway thinking of just getting the PLB/topper and being done with it. Itās funny though, how so many people here seem to simply use them for testing purposes and then move on to something else. Interestingā¦
I really think the topper (and the softness of it) makes a big differenceāsomething to do with it being completely separate from the base mattress itselfā¦ maybe allowing for more flexibility, etc. I also love PLBās covers, which are so soft and stretchy. But in the grand scheme of things, do those covers really matter at all? After all, weāre just gonna throw a mattress pad and sheets on top of it anyway. I find it interesting how the topic of covers gets so much attention.
Iām curious, how are you doing with that creation of yours? And did you separate the 14 ILD comfort layer as a topper, a la PLB? ā¦and about how much did you spend creating this thing, if you donāt mind me asking?
The PLB range of mattresses and toppers have quite a wide variety of different combinations possible with the different combinations of mattress and topper (although most of them are on the soft side in terms of the comfort layers) and they provide a good testing ground for the effect of different layer combinations. They are also owned by the manufacturer of much of the Talalay latex that is used in North America so their pricing is better than average when compared to other high quality mainstream mattresses. Because of this as well ā¦ they also have a fairly high margin and while the advertised prices are restricted ā¦ the margins provide room to āmake an offerā and of course some retailers are more open to this than others.
Having said that ā¦ forums like this tend to attract people who do more than the average amount of research and will often be looking for the āextra stepā of value or ability to customize in their mattress purchase and will go to a local or online manufacturer for better value yet. The risk here is that smaller changes in a mattress can sometimes make a surprising or bigger than expected difference in the performance and feel of a mattress and there are many variables in how a mattress performs, feels, and interacts with each person. This is where the layer exchanges of online outlets or the ability to fine tune specs offered by many local manufacturers can be very valuable. The PLB can be a good indication of the general type layering that works best for them or that they prefer though ā¦ even if it isnāt duplicated exactly.
This is absolutely true and is the reason that a topper will be feel softer than an equivalent ILD that is inside the mattress itself. True pillowtops are half way in between (the edges can pull in and the layer can respond more independently from the mattress itself and are less affected by the other layers).
A cover and any quilting can make a significant difference in the feel and performance of a mattress and involve similar choices to the choice of mattress protector. The knitted covers without quilting can conform to softer latex much more effectively than a woven cover and they also allow you to sleep directly on the latex and feel more of the latex itself. Some people much prefer this while some want to āmodifyā the feel of the latex itself.
The choice of mattress protector and even different sheets will also affect how the mattress performs to different degrees. The choices in mattress protectors involve tradeoffs between protection, degrees of waterproofness, breathability and temperature regulation, and how much the different types will affect the feel of the mattress itself.
There is no āright or wrongā in any of these choices ā¦ only preferences ā¦ but all the layers of a mattress and what is on top of it can have a significant effect on how each person sleeps on the mattress and the performance of the mattress. Different materials in the ticking and quilting can also have a significant effect on the cost of a mattress as well and in most cases the differences are much more than just appearance (although this is also part of the ādesignā to attract consumers and the look is what will be covered up by the bedding).
Thanks for bringing up some interesting points and I hope Mike has the chance to reply to you as well.
If you like this combo then note that the pamper has 1" 19 ILD over 6" of 40 ILD. So if you like the pamper plus 2" topper, then youāll want 6" of 40 ILD under 3" 14-16 ILD. If you like the PLB topper, donāt get 3" of 19 ILD as my observation is that there is a difference in feel between the 14-16 ILD range and 19 ILD.
If you like the PLB mattress cover, then you will love the cover I reference above in this thread. It is even better.
I do believe that there is something to your claim. I do feel a difference lying on top of the mattress cover (without pad) and on top of the mattress pad. We went with a thin waterproof membrane sandwiched byterry cloth. We need it because we have twin 3 year olds, but it does alter the feel. To me its seems that the plastic membrane, however thin, has some sheer resistance that makes for a slightly different feel. I would stay away from wool or other padding and would go for a minimalist pad approach if you are concerned about altering the feel of the latex.
I hesitate to disclose the price on the web as his prices might change but you can feel rest assured that you will save a substantial amount of money. I was surprised at the quote. You must know exactly what you want because he will not accept returns or exchange for different ILD rating. So you must know with precision what you want. This is the ācostā of the savings relative to online retailers with exchange programs. Good luck
Wow, I am continually impressed at the quickness and the depth of information this site provides. I usually just troll and try to pick up what I can while keeping a grain of salt, but Iām glad I actually participated this time. Thanks again to everyone here!
Iāve been waffling for a while now, trying to avoid the dreaded āanalysis paralysisā, but glad to have narrowed it down a bit. I love the latexāthe natural aspect, the feel, durability-- and definitely want to include it. Iāve considered getting a firm coil mattress and putting a nice latex topper on it, thought about this Ultimate Dreams bed that gets such great Amazon reviews and putting a topper on that, or just going full bore and going all latex.
Iām really leaning towards all-latex and just shelling out the premium āinvestmentā but itās a tough pill to swallow for a young guy like myself. From my research Iāll end up in the ballpark of about 1700-2200 for an all-latex queen no matter which route I go (online, PLB, custom, ,etc), so itās really not that huge of a difference in the long run. I guess now itās time to decide if Iām willing to wait for shipping, and risk needing returns, vs. just buying something put together here at a bit more of a premium/slightly less āall-naturalā. But at the same time some of those traditional-style choices are just so tempting with their prices though!
Iāll have to take a closer look at the route you took as well Mikeā¦ thanks for the advice. Iāll do my best to updateāIām sure most people here just take the info and run off into dreamland never to return. Such a great site-- now Iāll know more about ILDās and latex processing methods than Iāll ever need to, but should make for a great bar trivia moment
For a queen size bed that replicates the pamper plus topper Iād be shocked if you were much over $1,100 if purchasing Radium Talalay from Flexusā¦probably even less. To reduce the price further, you could consider 100% natural Dunlop for the core layer (firm). Price aside, I would seriously consider Dunlop as an option for the core layer anyway. You can test that specific combo (Dunlop plus PLB 3" topper) at PJās Sleep Company in West Hollywood. The lesson I learned through my own experience is that I would only be comfortable buying a specific combination of layers (DIY) I actually tested. Fortunately, I stuck with it long enough to be able to test what I ultimately purchased.
